What would happen if weapons "repaired" between battles?

[CrashGordon94]

Othin, another thing, since we already downed it from "no resets" to "minimal resets" you could make an exception for that map. I think most people are just concerned with seeing the game in action with a good idea of what's going on anyway so I don't think anyone would be seriously bothered if you resetted a bit.

[Renall]

Mildly off-topic, though as we are discussing the way TRS and Berwick handle weapons and repairs (though TRS itself, from what I saw, was not substantially different from FE), how's the status of the TRS translation? As I understand it they were pretty much done with the actual TL, but were still editing. Is there a thread around here somewhere I missed, and is there a patch for it yet?

If you want some sort of system for making weapons last, just take FE4's weapon repair system entirely, so the weapons can be used more often each time but it gets managed by the cost. Or use the mechanic Berwick Saga applied to a few personal weapons, where they regain 20% of their maximum durability each chapter, shown here. So applying it to other weapons, you could have Silver Swords get 10 uses but recover just 2 uses per chapter, which would manage the total number of uses you could get while still letting you use a decent number at once when you want to. I don't think I would favor a large-scale version of this, but it's certainly much more feasible.

That's actually not a bad idea. You could also use the Repair Stones or monetary repairs idea to allow for some degree of additional recharge after a map.

Like if, in this example, the Silver Sword has 10 uses, recovers 2 every map for free, and you can use a consumable or pay money (more than you'd pay for a Steel of course, but exactly how much is dependent on how much money you already get) to increase the number of repairs... the obvious baseline would be "double the base repairs," i.e. able to restore 4 uses. Perhaps high-end consumables allow "triple base repairs," so 6, but are rare and expensive.

You might need to include some sort of mechanic for the repairs though, to discourage "floating" at high durability 99% of the time. Perhaps weapons only get auto-repaired when below 50% (but if auto-repair happens to bump them over 50%, like from 4 uses to 6 out of 10, that's fine), though you can still pay or use items to repair them further. That way the Silver Sword won't have 10 full uses unless you get it down to 4, let it auto-repair to 6, and use a Super Repair Stone/big wad of cash to restore it back to 10. You can still "run out" inasmuch as you'll only end up with a crappy 2-use Silver Sword if you overuse it, but giving it a break for three maps at least lets it get back to 6 swings.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Renall

[Othin]

Othin, another thing, since we already downed it from "no resets" to "minimal resets" you could make an exception for that map. I think most people are just concerned with seeing the game in action with a good idea of what's going on anyway so I don't think anyone would be seriously bothered if you resetted a bit.

My current plan is to allow 10 resets, preferably saved for Game Overs or other utter catastrophes. For that map, the main issue is one particularly troublesome enemy that I could bait by sacrificing a weak character and make things much easier, that and on my current playthrough I'm trying to move fast to save some NPCs but it's really not necessary, so I can slow down a bit next time. It probably won't be so bad.

Mildly off-topic, though as we are discussing the way TRS and Berwick handle weapons and repairs (though TRS itself, from what I saw, was not substantially different from FE), how's the status of the TRS translation? As I understand it they were pretty much done with the actual TL, but were still editing. Is there a thread around here somewhere I missed, and is there a patch for it yet?

That's actually not a bad idea. You could also use the Repair Stones or monetary repairs idea to allow for some degree of additional recharge after a map.

Like if, in this example, the Silver Sword has 10 uses, recovers 2 every map for free, and you can use a consumable or pay money (more than you'd pay for a Steel of course, but exactly how much is dependent on how much money you already get) to increase the number of repairs... the obvious baseline would be "double the base repairs," i.e. able to restore 4 uses. Perhaps high-end consumables allow "triple base repairs," so 6, but are rare and expensive.

You might need to include some sort of mechanic for the repairs though, to discourage "floating" at high durability 99% of the time. Perhaps weapons only get auto-repaired when below 50% (but if auto-repair happens to bump them over 50%, like from 4 uses to 6 out of 10, that's fine), though you can still pay or use items to repair them further. That way the Silver Sword won't have 10 full uses unless you get it down to 4, let it auto-repair to 6, and use a Super Repair Stone/big wad of cash to restore it back to 10. You can still "run out" inasmuch as you'll only end up with a crappy 2-use Silver Sword if you overuse it, but giving it a break for three maps at least lets it get back to 6 swings.

That's the same as what I've heard; I don't know anything about details or where to find them, though.

Is floating even an issue?

Edited February 3, 2012 by Othin

[Renall]

I don't personally think it's an issue, since you're basically intentionally restricting your uses. The argument as I see it would be something like:

"I can use my Silver Sword for most maps, trivializing a powerful enemy here and there, and if it auto-repairs to full every time I can suddenly blow the whole thing on one mission without having to 'save up.'"

Now obviously you could argue that floating uses is a form of restraint that "saves up" uses (by not using them, obviously). But I suppose I can to some extent see the complaint. I'm not sure if it's actually a problem if repairs are not 100%, as you'd be getting those 20% uses back anyway each map. But having it stop at some value like 50% means you have to pay for it at some point if you want it back at full strength. That may or may not be a preferable way to encourage conservation.

So are you planning to play through TRS entirely in Japanese? I gave it a go but I just had no idea what was going on and there aren't a lot of really good guides for it so I felt like I was going to miss things constantly. I got just far enough to feel kinda dirty for using Narron.

[Othin]

I don't personally think it's an issue, since you're basically intentionally restricting your uses. The argument as I see it would be something like:

"I can use my Silver Sword for most maps, trivializing a powerful enemy here and there, and if it auto-repairs to full every time I can suddenly blow the whole thing on one mission without having to 'save up.'"

Now obviously you could argue that floating uses is a form of restraint that "saves up" uses (by not using them, obviously). But I suppose I can to some extent see the complaint. I'm not sure if it's actually a problem if repairs are not 100%, as you'd be getting those 20% uses back anyway each map. But having it stop at some value like 50% means you have to pay for it at some point if you want it back at full strength. That may or may not be a preferable way to encourage conservation.

So are you planning to play through TRS entirely in Japanese? I gave it a go but I just had no idea what was going on and there aren't a lot of really good guides for it so I felt like I was going to miss things constantly. I got just far enough to feel kinda dirty for using Narron.

The thing is, if you blow it all on one map, you have to wait 5 chapters "saving up" to use it at full again. I think that cost can be more important than a money cost to do the same, depending on the situation.

I've already played through FE4, FE5, and Berwick Saga in Japanese, as well as parts of FE3, FE6, and FE12, so yeah. Berwick Saga has even less information than TRS, but I was able to track things down by arming myself with an online translator to learn things from Japanese sites. (It helped that I completed most of my database on this site when I was halfway through.)

TRS definitely has a lot of events to miss; for example, you need to have Runan visit a specific house in Ch3 to trigger events to recruit four more characters later. I restarted my first playthrough after Ch9 due to missing that and a bunch of other things and actually started looking at the recruitment data page after that point; it's not so bad with at least getting the recruitments right.

[Renall]

I haven't really given Berwick Saga a lot of looks, mainly because I never really had any means to play it. It does look pretty fascinating and I'm sad it hasn't gotten much attention, but the platform is not as robust an emulation scene as the SNES or PSX and so I guess that cuts down on translator interest or something.

It looks neat though, and has some interesting mechanics (Shields? What devilry is this?). Plus hexes.

So personal weapons auto-repair in Berwick? Can they still break entirely, or will they auto-repair even if at 0?

[Othin]

Perhaps. Banzai and I are working on things right now, but it's a slow process, especially since neither of us know much Japanese. Or hacking, for that matter.

Shields are interesting in both TRS and BS in that character durability is lower; they tend to not last long without them. In TRS, they're just a resource to be used by any character, while in BS, they become their own equipment types for specific characters, varying in effectiveness with the characters' skill with them. Increased variation in weapon access and the effects of those weapons, a wide variety of tactical skills, and more personal weapons all help to increase variation between characters, making them all unique and distinct from each other - from what I've found, much more so than in the other games, which has been a big part of why I found myself getting attached to it so quickly. (It's actually been just over six months since I started playing it.)

Only certain personal weapons auto-repair: Reese's second, ultimate sword, Succeed, and the four ultimate spells used by certain mages. They disappear entirely if their durability runs out, which isn't so likely to happen when left alone on the enemy phase in BS. Physical personal weapons (except Succeed for some reason) remain if broken to be repaired by a Repair Stone, but won't repair on their own.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Othin

[CrashGordon94]

My current plan is to allow 10 resets, preferably saved for Game Overs or other utter catastrophes. For that map, the main issue is one particularly troublesome enemy that I could bait by sacrificing a weak character and make things much easier, that and on my current playthrough I'm trying to move fast to save some NPCs but it's really not necessary, so I can slow down a bit next time. It probably won't be so bad.

I'd recommend against that really. Your reasoning is sound enough but a definite hard limit on your resets isn't really a good idea. What if you have 11 catastrophies? I mean, not the only thing that could happen but just one example I could think of.

[Othin]

I'd recommend against that really. Your reasoning is sound enough but a definite hard limit on your resets isn't really a good idea. What if you have 11 catastrophies? I mean, not the only thing that could happen but just one example I could think of.

Well, I'll just have to not let that happen.

I know what I'm doing. Just leave it to me and I'll find a way to work things out.

[dondon151]

Perhaps. Banzai and I are working on things right now, but it's a slow process, especially since neither of us know much Japanese.

Tell Banzai to get off his English major butt and expand his horizons.

[CT075]

This sounds very interesting. Just out of curiosity, I wonder if the FE hacking community could accomplish this with a hack (even theoretically).

For GBA, Nintenlord made a patch that replaced items placed in the convoy for a cost. Also, changing the uses an item has to infinite or a number (I think between 127 and 1) is just a simple nightmare edit.

While I'd love to try and pull it off, the amounts of ASM necessary are ridiculous. I suppose that hijacking Nintenlord's source for the patch you mentioned might help somewhat, one would have to rework the item system so that a broken item is still stored in memory (or reverts to a 'broken' state) instead of just getting deleted from inventory.

but then again everything is possible with ASM so yeah

[Anouleth]

What if in the Base, you could repair one weapon per chapter? Perhaps there could even be a choice between forging a new weapon or repairing an existing one.

[Renall]

What if in the Base, you could repair one weapon per chapter? Perhaps there could even be a choice between forging a new weapon or repairing an existing one.

Forging could also potentially be more interesting, depending on what you did with it. For example, what if you could combine weapons and produce something with certain properties of each? Like if instead of forging up something's Crit, you combined a Steel Blade and a Killer Edge to get a weapon with the Steel Blade's Mt and Wt but the Killer Edge's Crit? For simple combines like this you'd probably just have two options: Strong (highest Mt, Wt, and lowest Crit, Hit) or Precise (lowest Mt, Wt, and highest Crit, Hit).

For stuff like Brave weapons, maybe you could transfer the Brave property subject to some restrictions, so you could create a Brave Iron Sword but it would be inferior to the Brave Sword but have more uses. This uses up resources (got to spend two weapons to make one) but creates individually more powerful ones, and allows that 1-use Brave Sword a new lease on life as a weaker, but refreshed weapon.

You could even buff weaker weapon types by allowing more transfers of effects between certain types and not others. For example, what if Knives could be forged with the Effective properties of the Knight Killer, Hammer, or Wyrmslayer/Laguzslayer, but other weapon types could only take the effective properties available to their weapon category? Suddenly an Assassin has an Effective weapon for every target he might encounter... thus making him more of... well... an assassin. But a Fighter won't be able to have the same versatility in exchange for his higher Mt.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Renall

[CrashGordon94]

That's neat, I suggested a more primitive and broken version of the same thing myself, your version would likely work better.

[dondon151]

I think forging is something that needs to be removed altogether due to balance issues, unless we use the FE9 or FE10 (J) reincarnations.

[Anouleth]

I think forging is something that needs to be removed altogether due to balance issues, unless we use the FE9 or FE10 (J) reincarnations.

People say that the Japanese version was better, but it was easily broken. A Steel Poleax produces 25 forging points when sold and costs 700 gold. So starting from the moment you get Steel Poleaxes, the extra cost of a forge is always no more than 700 gold (the cost of just buying and selling Steel Poleaxes). And often it will be much, much less because you will be selling used weapons or undesired weapons (like the Wo Daos or the Killer Axe) a lot too. The only time it would ever be a constraint is at the very very earlygame, so grats I guess for making training Edward/Nolan/Aran even more difficult because you can't give them forges so easily. And once you reach lategame, weapon ranks are a non-issue. Most people sell those SS Rank Tomes anyway and between them they produce 12 forges.

I hear the FE12 system wasn't so bad since money is actually kinda tight. But even FE9 gave you so many forges that you basically could use them whenever you needed to. I often forgot to forge, but never really ran out of them.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Anouleth

[Rehab]

I like the idea a lot, and it makes much more sense to me that an army doesn't neglect its weapons and leave them lying around between battles. I also agree with the hammer analogy, saving resources as strategy is one thing but the game refusing to broadcast any relevant information about it is another.

[Renall]

I think forging is something that needs to be removed altogether due to balance issues, unless we use the FE9 or FE10 (J) reincarnations.

I think we can agree it's absurd the way the DS games handle it, certainly. I think weapon combining would be marginally less broken, if only because you'd have to give up two to get one and it wouldn't just have the blanket best stats of each.

I do think that, of the actual main FE games to feature it, 9 did it best, aside from being overly restrictive in what you could forge. Expand the types of forges just a tad and keep the limitations and it's a bit better overall.