Cruel reality or a great dream?

[Anouleth]

What does it even mean to have "fake" pleasure? Pleasure is an emotion, a feeling. You can't fake it. If you feel like you're happy, you are happy. What causes it is irrelevant.

And much of what we derive pleasure from is fake or fictional. The Lord of the Rings is "fake", the events in it never happened. But nobody would deny that you can still enjoy it.

[Defeatist Elitist]

I think I'd definitely want to know I was living in a fantasy, but as long as I had control over it I'd be totally fine. I mean, the way you set up the situation, it's not like the machines are actually doing anything bad, they've essentially given us whatever we want. I mean, if they were, say, randomly killing people, then that would change everything, but as it is, there's literally no downside to the fantasy.

EDIT: I mean, it's not like there's any meaning or purpose to achievement in real life. There is no objective metric by which you can say it's somehow better or more real to do something in reality, since achievement is entirely subjective. I guess I figure that if achievement is already all in your head, I don't see the problem with internalizing the rest of the process too.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Defeatist Elitist

[Death']

No.

Living in an eternal fantasy -> drugs

That's just weak.

drugs aren't that awesome, sadly. due to our bodies building tolerance.

I do like drugs though

I'm one of the people here that can probably say "I kinda went through this." Lucid dreaming was my drug for about 6 years.

I think I experienced how it is to be as happy as you can be in those dreams. But at the same time... even if it's just for a moment before you go back to your bliss... the feeling is there.

that's really cool for some reason. I knew a guy once who did that too.

what kinda stuff do you invent in those dreams?

[Junkhead]

"How? The topic is discussing a suitably advanced simulation that is a perfect recreation of reality, just in your idealized version of it. There would be no real difference between the two of them, other than what you desire."

Easy fix. You don't make your dream a paradise. I haven't. I realize obstacles are important, and indeed I have them in my dreams. And if my fantasy were to become my "reality," I wouldn't know if I would eventually overcome all obstacles. Essentially, it's living out the life I want. I'd love to live the exact life I want to live...and given the choice, why would I not choose to do so?

What is that being quoted from?

Anyway, that's the problem: The fact that it's your ideal world, even if it does have flaws. You'll still get exactly what you want, so it would be questionable.

My problem is still reguarding the question. Here we are, looking at the two choices. We are completely aware of them, and the fact that one of them is not a real outcome, but just a dream. Maybe once taken the choice, the OP assumed we aren't supposed to be aware it's a dream. How is it a dream if it lasts that long, and when does it start? That is also a reason to why you would question it's reality.

[shadowofchaos]

that's really cool for some reason. I knew a guy once who did that too.

what kinda stuff do you invent in those dreams?

What any person would do if they could play god. Have what they don't have in real life.

Could be things as extraordinary like White Angel Wings and fly... being completely different from flying on an airplane.

Could be as boring as living your life in a different place (such as in a country you left when you were a little kid) and imagining how it would have been.

Could be as simple as playing a sport you've never tried... or something as silly as being able to blow up cars with a wave of your hand.

Lot's of things. But the main thing was... well I'm pretty sure the regular members on this forum who know me know the reason why.

Not gonna get into more detail than that.

All I'll say is this... Dreams give you an insight on what your true desires are, even when you think you're in control like in a lucid.

[Phoenix Wright]

What is that being quoted from?

Anyway, that's the problem: The fact that it's your ideal world, even if it does have flaws. You'll still get exactly what you want, so it would be questionable.

My problem is still reguarding the question. Here we are, looking at the two choices. We are completely aware of them, and the fact that one of them is not a real outcome, but just a dream. Maybe once taken the choice, the OP assumed we aren't supposed to be aware it's a dream. How is it a dream if it lasts that long, and when does it start? That is also a reason to why you would question it's reality.

It's Esau's latest post. Since it wasn't too long ago, I didn't think it would be completely necessary to cite it. But yeah, Esau said it.

Yes, but I wouldn't know. Even if I did, I'd still choose the fantasy. The life I could live there would be infinitely better than the one I'm living now. I'm not complaining about my reality here, but I am saying it'd be nothing compared to how I'd like to live.

I assumed I'd live the dream until I die.

[Esau of Isaac]

What is that being quoted from?

It's an excerpt from The Sexiest Being Alive. You should scroll up and check it out brah.

Anyway, that's the problem: The fact that it's your ideal world, even if it does have flaws. You'll still get exactly what you want, so it would be questionable.

If the subconscious portions of your brain desire conflict then obviously this simulation could perfectly recreate it.

Like, here: If the computer could 100% perfectly recreate the entirety of your life --every action, every molecule that bounced this way or that-- would it be somehow incomparable to the real world in any way?

My problem is still reguarding the question. Here we are, looking at the two choices. We are completely aware of them, and the fact that one of them is not a real outcome, but just a dream. Maybe once taken the choice, the OP assumed we aren't supposed to be aware it's a dream. How is it a dream if it lasts that long, and when does it start? That is also a reason to why you would question it's reality.

I'm pretty sure that if you spent years in that machine living in a world that is sufficiently real enough to be indistinguishable from ours, that you quickly come to philosophize on the exact nature of reality in the first place: Who is to say that your "real" world is definably real at all? Perhaps it's yet another computer simulation? And who really cares either way? This computer has essentially made an entirely new universe, given the way in which it emulates your perception of reality.

[The Spanish Inquisition]

Reality.

I'm rather amused by the responses that say reality under the logic of "I would know it was fake".

How do you know that you are experiencing reality right now?

You respond, "Because my senses/my friend/my parents/the internet/the authority/I say this is reality."

But how do we know these sources are credible? The truth is then we must accept some credible source, or go "insane" from accepting a somewhat less credible source.

(My view of those in insane asylums is that the patients have accepted an approximation of the world deviant from the "average" view of the world and act accordingly, or the patients actually have physical brain problems)

Aside: Isn't it fantastic that we can always view our environment to be real, safe, and secure because we can imagine a worse environment? Yes, I just Matrix'd this shit.

Now, why do I believe reality to be better? I choose to accept the input that I am < the whole of humanity and should act accordingly.

Then it is far more likely that my choosing reality would benefit the whole of humanity rather than choosing fantasy.

After all, it's difficult to keep the human race running if procreation doesn't happen and no one/nothing protects us from external factors considered to be a part of "reality" (such as novae, another intelligent species, weather disasters).

Now TL;DR version: Reality, because I am personally able to bullshit reality into fantasy, but not the other way around. And I'm scared of what I can't do...

[Junkhead]

It's Esau's latest post. Since it wasn't too long ago, I didn't think it would be completely necessary to cite it. But yeah, Esau said it.

You could've at least quoted it so I would know it's coming from an SF user. ;/

Yes, but I wouldn't know. Even if I did, I'd still choose the fantasy. The life I could live there would be infinitely better than the one I'm living now. I'm not complaining about my reality here, but I am saying it'd be nothing compared to how I'd like to live.

I assumed I'd live the dream until I die.

I understand your point. However, right now is where we are being presented with these two choices:

To live reality or an ideal dream

We are completely aware that it's a dream now, and even if we weren't aware it's a dream in that dream we're living, we wouldn't go to it in the first place if we know it's a dream. A choice from the past to a affect the future...an unprobable future.

If the subconscious portions of your brain desire conflict then obviously this simulation could perfectly recreate it.

Like, here: If the computer could 100% perfectly recreate the entirety of your life --every action, every molecule that bounced this way or that-- would it be somehow incomparable to the real world in any way?

I'm pretty sure that if you spent years in that machine living in a world that is sufficiently real enough to be indistinguishable from ours, that you quickly come to philosophize on the exact nature of reality in the first place: Who is to say that your "real" world is definably real at all? Perhaps it's yet another computer simulation? And who really cares either way? This computer has essentially made an entirely new universe, given the way in which it emulates your perception of reality.

I think dreams inside dreams is BS.

Reality.

I'm rather amused by the responses that say reality under the logic of "I would know it was fake".

How do you know that you are experiencing reality right now?

You respond, "Because my senses/my friend/my parents/the internet/the authority/I say this is reality."

But how do we know these sources are credible? The truth is then we must accept some credible source, or go "insane" from accepting a somewhat less credible source.

(My view of those in insane asylums is that the patients have accepted an approximation of the world deviant from the "average" view of the world and act accordingly, or the patients actually have physical brain problems)

Aside: Isn't it fantastic that we can always view our environment to be real, safe, and secure because we can imagine a worse environment? Yes, I just Matrix'd this shit.

Now, why do I believe reality to be better? I choose to accept the input that I am < the whole of humanity and should act accordingly.

Then it is far more likely that my choosing reality would benefit the whole of humanity rather than choosing fantasy.

After all, it's difficult to keep the human race running if procreation doesn't happen and no one/nothing protects us from external factors considered to be a part of "reality" (such as novae, another intelligent species, weather disasters).

Now TL;DR version: Reality, because I am personally able to bullshit reality into fantasy, but not the other way around. And I'm scared of what I can't do...

Another one of these crack pot theories with no proof at all? How do you people even come up with this stuff? Is it so hard to develop common sense and realize what you're living is real, and that everything that happens to you isn't just happening to you, but to other people as well? (i.e a person dies, it's shown on the news, they don't just die without no one noticing)

[Junkhead]

It's Esau's latest post. Since it wasn't too long ago, I didn't think it would be completely necessary to cite it. But yeah, Esau said it.

You could've at least quoted it so I would know it's coming from an SF user. ;/

Yes, but I wouldn't know. Even if I did, I'd still choose the fantasy. The life I could live there would be infinitely better than the one I'm living now. I'm not complaining about my reality here, but I am saying it'd be nothing compared to how I'd like to live.

I assumed I'd live the dream until I die.

I understand your point. However, right now is where we are being presented with these two choices:

To live reality or an ideal dream

We are completely aware that it's a dream now, and even if we weren't aware it's a dream in that dream we're living, we wouldn't go to it in the first place if we know it's a dream. A choice from the past to a affect the future...an unprobable future.

If the subconscious portions of your brain desire conflict then obviously this simulation could perfectly recreate it.

Like, here: If the computer could 100% perfectly recreate the entirety of your life --every action, every molecule that bounced this way or that-- would it be somehow incomparable to the real world in any way?

I'm pretty sure that if you spent years in that machine living in a world that is sufficiently real enough to be indistinguishable from ours, that you quickly come to philosophize on the exact nature of reality in the first place: Who is to say that your "real" world is definably real at all? Perhaps it's yet another computer simulation? And who really cares either way? This computer has essentially made an entirely new universe, given the way in which it emulates your perception of reality.

I think dreams inside dreams is BS.

Reality.

I'm rather amused by the responses that say reality under the logic of "I would know it was fake".

How do you know that you are experiencing reality right now?

You respond, "Because my senses/my friend/my parents/the internet/the authority/I say this is reality."

But how do we know these sources are credible? The truth is then we must accept some credible source, or go "insane" from accepting a somewhat less credible source.

(My view of those in insane asylums is that the patients have accepted an approximation of the world deviant from the "average" view of the world and act accordingly, or the patients actually have physical brain problems)

Aside: Isn't it fantastic that we can always view our environment to be real, safe, and secure because we can imagine a worse environment? Yes, I just Matrix'd this shit.

Now, why do I believe reality to be better? I choose to accept the input that I am < the whole of humanity and should act accordingly.

Then it is far more likely that my choosing reality would benefit the whole of humanity rather than choosing fantasy.

After all, it's difficult to keep the human race running if procreation doesn't happen and no one/nothing protects us from external factors considered to be a part of "reality" (such as novae, another intelligent species, weather disasters).

Now TL;DR version: Reality, because I am personally able to bullshit reality into fantasy, but not the other way around. And I'm scared of what I can't do...

Another one of these crack pot theories with no proof at all? How do you people even come up with this stuff? Is it so hard to develop common sense and realize what you're living is real, and that everything that happens to you isn't just happening to you, but to other people as well? (i.e a person dies, it's shown on the news, they don't just die without no one noticing)

Besides, dreams are too ilogical and blurry to be taken credible.

[Phoenix Wright]

I understand your point. However, right now is where we are being presented with these two choices:

To live reality or an ideal dream

We are completely aware that it's a dream now, and even if we weren't aware it's a dream in that dream we're living, we wouldn't go to it in the first place if we know it's a dream. A choice from the past to a affect the future...an unprobable future.

Let's put a spin on the perspective here: Let's say you and I know the exact outcome of my life in reality, and my life in my dreams, my ideals.

In reality, I want to be an astrophysicist. I apply to Stanford and Caltech (let's say those are my top choices for higher learning), get rejected, and instead I end up at University of California, Santa Cruz (or some other university that isn't my top choice). And, while studying there, I end up failing, hard. I can't do the work assigned to me. I can't learn the material. I have failed in my goals to become an astrophysicist. So, I kill myself.

In my ideal fantasy, everything works out. I make it into my top choice for education, I graduate at the top of my class, and I achieve my goals in life.

Why should I still choose reality?

[Note: I am merely arguing from the extremes here. I'm psychologically stable, for the most part. ;)]

[Junkhead]

Well, as stated before, you would only choose the bad reality to avoid living a lie. But as you said, you wouldn't be able to tell if your dream is real once in it.

I am not trying to argue out of your reason, though. I understand.

[The Spanish Inquisition]

Another one of these crack pot theories with no proof at all? How do you people even come up with this stuff? Is it so hard to develop common sense and realize what you're living is real, and that everything that happens to you isn't just happening to you, but to other people as well? (i.e a person dies, it's shown on the news, they don't just die without no one noticing)

Besides, dreams are too ilogical and blurry to be taken credible.

So, what is proof? What is common sense? (to you, not wikipedia or a dictionary)

I see lack of definitions in your argument.

The problem is that when you step back, you realize that there truly is no valid proof to be had.

You might claim evidence as proof, but evidence is always up to interpretation.

You might claim witnesses as proof, but those witnesses might be lying/not exist/be wrong.

And just because no evidence exists for something doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Your claim, that everything happens to everyone, is unstable if those people are all a figment of your imagination (conscious or unconscious).

And unfortunately people do die without anyone noticing. Granted, it's less common in our current era, but people do disappear.

Unfortunately, there can't be any evidence of this phenomenon, (since if there was evidence, someone would have noticed).

Finally, reality is illogical, everyone knows that.

And your vision is most likely slightly worse than someone else's vision, and thus, slightly blurrier. Then is your perception of reality less credible than theirs?

How do you people even come up with this stuff?

Creative thinking. You should try it sometime.

[Junkhead]

Of course I have proof. We all do. It's literally all around you. You are the one without proof, but rather a baseless nonsensical assumption.

Now, where is your proof? It's just "creative" thinking.

What happens if kills a family member you appreciate? What, you're going to deny it thinking it's all just a dream, thereby decreasing the burden? If it's just a dream, then why aren't you ontrolling it if you are your own main character?

This isn't a dream because we can exchange thoughts like thse perfectly fine without it being one-sided. You can also exchange thoughtswith others. In dreams, these kind of things don't happen. Dreams aren't supposed to make sense, anyway.

And you should know what common sense is. It's something alot of us have without not really being able to define it. I don't want to say it's a "normal" thought process because I can't define "normal" myself. For example:

Everyone (or most) knows that it's wrong to kill people. There doesn't need to be a reason for that.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Soul

[Freohr Datia]

I would want fantasy, so long as it means never ever having to face reality. As long as I can never wake up!

I don't mind blissful ignorance at all! Blissful ignorance is what I've always dreamed heehee of having. It just sounds so easy and I don't mind thinking that I'd take the easy route. No glory for fighting in reality for me. I guess I'm just so simple that way.

[Scarlet]

Reality is bad because it isn't like fantasy, but fantasy is bad because it isn't real.

Think about it. Fantasy is great because it allows for many things that would never happen in reality - magic, adventure, a much simpler life...

But on the other hand, knowing it's not real kills the idea of living in that fantasy world.

If reality was more like fantasy, everything would probably be awesome - but then again, who knows? Maybe I wouldn't be happy in a fantasy world either, even if it was real. There's (obviously) no way to tell.

So, which do I choose? Can I take a third option and say "neither"?

[Junkhead]

Adventure and magic is possible in real life too, though.

[The Spanish Inquisition]

Of course I have proof. We all do. It's literally all around you. You are the one without proof, but rather a baseless nonsensical assumption.

Not what is your proof but what is proof?

"It's all around you" is not a definition, but a vague description. The air and light are also all around you, for example. Is proof the air? light? I think not.

also

What happens if kills a family member you appreciate? What, you're going to deny it thinking it's all just a dream, thereby decreasing the burden? If it's just a dream, then why aren't you ontrolling it if you are your own main character?

First, we have no guarantee that others exist, and the family member is a construct of the mind. Have you ever had a dream in which you couldn't control what was happening? I thought so.

This isn't a dream because we can exchange thoughts like thse perfectly fine without it being one-sided. You can also exchange thoughtswith others. In dreams, these kind of things don't happen. Dreams aren't supposed to make sense, anyway.

Once again, the subconscious creates others with which you can converse w/o the conversation seeming one-sided. And reality doesn't make sense, either.

Everyone (or most) knows that it's wrong to kill people. There doesn't need to be a reason for that.

and yet war is a part of reality.

[Junkhead]

We are two madmen fighting a useless folly.

I won't argue any further. Your way of thinking is utterly disgusting. And I'm not even one to call other people "crazy".

Edited March 8, 2012 by Soul

[Cain Magnus]

So, which do I choose? Can I take a third option and say "neither"

Actually, I've never thought about the possibility of someone not preferring either. Maybe a third option isn't a bad idea.

[The Spanish Inquisition]

We are two madmen fighting a useless folly.

I won't argue any further. Your way of thinking is utterly disgusting. And I'm not even one to call other people "crazy".

Who said it was my way of thinking?

See Nietzche

I enjoy arguing useless (although unflawed) philosophies.

[Celice]

I won't argue any further. Your way of thinking is utterly disgusting. And I'm not even one to call other people "crazy".

That's interesting. So far, most of the posts here that are yours have made me feel about you the same way you describe his thinking :) I don't have time to explain why, but I think the basis of it is that most of your replies are grounded in assumptions, rather than actuality. It's (they are) so rooted in your perspective that when you try to suggest things which occur outside of you, en général, you can't describe them except for how you believe them to be. Which, "is utterly disgusting."

Gistly.

[Phoenix Wright]

Well, as stated before, you would only choose the bad reality to avoid living a lie. But as you said, you wouldn't be able to tell if your dream is real once in it.

I am not trying to argue out of your reason, though. I understand.

No, no. This question does not involve my argument. In your opinion, how you feel about reality versus fantasy, why should I choose reality in the example situation?

EDIT: Or do you still think I should choose it to avoid living a lie? (Sorry, forgot you wrote that bit, but now I'm asking for clarification.)

Edited March 8, 2012 by Phoenix Wright

[Rehab]

The implication is that you're happy in these "dreams" and not in the reality, right? In that case, I choose the dream. All anyone really wants is what, in the end, makes them happy. The only reason to choose otherwise is because you don't believe you would be happy in the dream. Or to make people on the internet think something of you when you know you will never actually be in that situation. Anyways, as long as the dream really is better than reality, yeah I'd choose that.

Don't presume to know me, so that I may avoid presuming to know you.

The dream is tempting, but if I understand the thought experiment correctly, I wouldn't be able to share it with anybody else, and I would leave others still suffering in reality. In my fantasy, I could be a creator and an explorer, but I would have nobody sentient to share those achievements with. It does test my sureness that I could be told by the simulation that I would, and that I might forget all about reality the moment I enter the simulation. I still don't think I would be satisfied with the idea that I would never be known by anybody who came after me, and that I could never again contribute anything to humanity, however little that would be, in the way I would prefer to do.

also why did enslaved have to kinda sorta pretend to be based on Journey to the West, I fucking love that and it would make awesome video game subject matter in its own right rabble rabble rabble

Edited March 8, 2012 by Rehab

[Esau of Isaac]

I think dreams inside dreams is BS.

I think you oversimplified what I said and are discounting what plainly shows your reasoning to be faulty and childlike.

Another one of these crack pot theories with no proof at all? How do you people even come up with this stuff? Is it so hard to develop common sense and realize what you're living is real, and that everything that happens to you isn't just happening to you, but to other people as well? (i.e a person dies, it's shown on the news, they don't just die without no one noticing)

What are you even talking about? He's questioning how you know that the "reality" you are experiencing is genuinely real. How do you know that you are not in a computer simulation right now?

Of course I have proof. We all do. It's literally all around you. You are the one without proof, but rather a baseless nonsensical assumption.

What is your proof? He already told you what your proof is. Your surroundings and your capability to interpret them. You know, the same thing that sufficiently advanced computer simulation would be capable of perfectly emulating. Go figure.

Now, where is your proof? It's just "creative" thinking.

What happens if kills a family member you appreciate? What, you're going to deny it thinking it's all just a dream, thereby decreasing the burden? If it's just a dream, then why aren't you ontrolling it if you are your own main character?

Are you high right now? How does any of this respond to his point? He's talking about the world you're being in acting as a simulation, not a badly made videogame scenario or something.

And you should know what common sense is. It's something alot of us have without not really being able to define it. I don't want to say it's a "normal" thought process because I can't define "normal" myself. For example:

Everyone (or most) knows that it's wrong to kill people. There doesn't need to be a reason for that.

Yes, yes there does. It's frequently contested every day by a very vocal amount of people whether or not it is wrong to kill people. You used like the poorest example you possibly could.

We are two madmen fighting a useless folly.

I won't argue any further. Your way of thinking is utterly disgusting. And I'm not even one to call other people "crazy".

At no point in any of your responses to him did you even begin to understand what he is saying. You are so goddamn ignorant in your stereotypically arrogant position of superiority on this topic that I wish I could reach through the internet and slap you in the testicles.