Rate the Unit, Day 4: Wolt

[Thor Odinson]

FE7 Marcus got a higher score, so no. Almost a full point higher too.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Luminescent Blade

[Tangerine]

Calling bogus on him having a higher score than the cavs then, lol. I mean it doesn't even state that you have to rate them based on efficiency, which is the only form of play FE6 Marcus really excels in. You can grind supports and quickly make Marcus an afterthought playing any other way, including ranks and casual. Even in efficiency they're better, I don't get it :P.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Tangerine

[ShinRPGamer]

I think Mage Lord put it best:

Earlygame chipper, but he's pretty much Roy with bows

1.5/10

[Pitbuller26]

I'd say he pretty right well inherited Rebecca's "skill" with a bow, mhm.

http://i.imgur.com/p3eR9.gif

Even though I like Rebecca.

[Raven]

Hey Integ, not cool bra. Rebecca's probably the best GBA archer going. I will defend her to my last breath.

[OrangeCrush980]

Neimi > Rebecca. Better growths and Ranger >>> Sniper.

[Thor Odinson]

Calling bogus on him having a higher score than the cavs then, lol. I mean it doesn't even state that you have to rate them based on efficiency, which is the only form of play FE6 Marcus really excels in. You can grind supports and quickly make Marcus an afterthought playing any other way, including ranks and casual. Even in efficiency they're better, I don't get it :P.

It doesn't have to, but efficient players won't rate on casual play anyway. And I don't even find Alance good enough to be over Marcus and I don't play for efficiency. If you don't play for efficiency the extra movement Alance brings to the table isn't /as/ important anyway and their combat really do take a while to get going while there are units better at killing shit than they do. Their bases are pretty underwhelming for HM, IMO. Marcus makes earlygame just /that/ much easier so even though his combat utility ends at the end of chapter 13 unless he gets ridiculously blessed or something, it's still really damn good. Also Silver Lance and actual pretty good hit with axes during those times.

And I'm not even counting against Alance that by the time Marcus retires, Percival comes along with his hax stats.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Luminescent Blade

[Loki Laufeyson]

Wolt. Not much to say about him.

Pros:

Early game chip damage.

Cons:

Bad bad bases.

Pretty blah growths.

Bow lock forever.

Deuagh.

This guy is pretty crappy. I mean, really....i just dont even. You get a better archer a wee bit later on whos got better bases. Thats if you want to bother with archers at all. You could just hold out for guys like Igrene and/or that other dude. (Klein) So yeah. Why bother? Wolt's just getting the bench.

1/10

[MacLovin]

Wolt-

Oh god, this is truly shit.

At least Wil had a 50% str growth.

Wolt has 40% str/spd.

Hell with this, gimmee any of the other ones, Igrene/Klien/Dorothy/Sue/Shin/Dayan/Barte/Ward/Lott for Bows.

Funny, if Sain/Lowen/Wil parented him fe4 style, He'd probobly be worth using.......

1/10, and that one is out of pity.

[Onmi]

I don't rate on efficiency because I couldn't give two shits about it (unless we're talking "Hey sit in the arena re-rolling the RNG so Sophia CAN FUCKING KILL SOMETHING AND YOU GET A SUB-PAR RAY BUT I'M NOT BITTER OR ANYTHING!!!) What I rate is on Hard Mode, especially since I'm playing that again right now. For Hard Mode Marcus is invauable specificly because he wont kill ANYTHING but he will set them up so everyone else can kill them. That's why my Alance and Marcus Scores are as they are.

Wolt-

Oh god, this is truly shit.

At least Wil had a 50% str growth.

Wolt has 40% str/spd.

Hell with this, gimmee any of the other ones, Igrene/Klien/Dorothy/Sue/Shin/Dayan/Barte/Ward/Lott for Bows.

Funny, if Sain/Lowen/Wil parented him fe4 style, He'd probobly be worth using.......

1/10, and that one is out of pity.

(Father: Wil)

HP: 105

Str: 70

Skill: 75

Spd: 70

Luck: 65

Def: 25

Res: 40

(Father: Lowen)

HP: 120

Str: 50

Skill: 55

Spd: 60

Luck: 75

Def: 45

Res: 45

(Father: Sain)

HP: 110

Str: 80

Skill: 60

Spd: 70

Luck: 60

Def: 25

Res: 35

Yes, 'useable' is one way of putting it

Edited March 7, 2012 by Onmi

[Tangerine]

It doesn't have to, but efficient players won't rate on casual play anyway. And I don't even find Alance good enough to be over Marcus and I don't play for efficiency. If you don't play for efficiency the extra movement Alance brings to the table isn't /as/ important anyway and their combat really do take a while to get going while there are units better at killing shit than they do. Their bases are pretty underwhelming for HM, IMO. Marcus makes earlygame just /that/ much easier so even though his combat utility ends at the end of chapter 13 unless he gets ridiculously blessed or something, it's still really damn good. Also Silver Lance and actual pretty good hit with axes during those times.

And I'm not even counting against Alance that by the time Marcus retires, Percival comes along with his hax stats.

Marcus' time as a good combat unit ends way before chapter 13. I guess if you want you can keep him around until then thanks to the amount of units they let you deploy, but he's certainly not up there at that point.

Alan and Lance are better than Marcus in efficient play as well (it's not him at the top of the tier list), so even if it were efficiency players' votes that skewed it it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense. If you don't play for efficiency then there is no reason not to purposely put them beside eachother for their support; you only need 15 turns to start it. And since you just said you personally don't utilize their movement outside of efficiency, their Roy support becomes a whole lot more viable too. The only people with better offense than them for a very long time are Marcus, Dieck and Rutger, who all have significant issues of their own. Rutger and Dieck (until promo, probably the best choice for an early promo in chapter 7) are facing WTD far more often than not, while Marcus has bad mid and late games. Plus their support options are way worse; Marcus' are good, but nobody wants to support with Marcus because he isn't going to be a permanent member and he's a worse option for everyone but Wolt.

Outside of efficiency it's not even comparable, Marcus does not beat them for long at all when you are not restricted from building their supports. The only way Marcus could possibly be considered better is if you purposely gimp the Cavs with self-imposed restrictions that ignore the improvement options inherent to them or overvalue his early game worth. Marcus is not a god early game, he is not FE7 Marcus. Marcus can die and he needs a whole lot of help.

I have to assume it is bias that effected the score, which is obviously permitted. But it sure does look odd seeing the scores that way when the focus for these polls is on gameplay.

Edit: And keep in mind by "efficiency" I do not mean " super low turn count".

Edited March 8, 2012 by Tangerine

[Integrity]

Hey Integ, not cool bra. Rebecca's probably the best GBA archer going. I will defend her to my last breath.

Ray, boss, no disrespect intended. Becca's my Windows sign-in picture and she's been for the last three years. Just a little colorful fun, is all.

[Thor Odinson]

Contrary to your claims, Marcus IS a godsend on HM. Like Onmi stated earlier, he may not ORKO everything, but he does leave everything with just enough HP for everyone to mop up. I found his combat fairly adequate on C13, actually, and he still has no problem handling the unpromoted cavs and the such. Enemies don't suck in FE6HM, especially earlygame. Earlygame is the hardest stretch to get through, and some of those enemies are utterly dicks compared to the quality of your team. Alance wouldn't even be very easily trainable weren't for Marcus leaving them piles of almost-dead shit to clean up. Sure, there's the loldiers, but beyond those scrubs that even /Thany/ (read: lol 4 str slim lance) can 2RKO they do terribly underwhelming damage to cavaliers which make up the bulk of the enemies in C4. There's two people with actual reliable durability and combat on that map, and that's Marcus and Dieck. Lot hits something like 50% with a Halberd and is doubled sometimes, so it's a cointoss with him. Roy can damage them once decently, but his durability is ass, rapier has 25 uses, and doesn't work against Nomads. Bors is lol. Ward is lol. I spend a lot of earlygame feeding kills to Alance whenever I could, yet Alan does something like 8 damage at low hitrates and Lance does something like 5x2 if he proc'd enough speed to double at that point. It's not very favourable in my book that the enemy cavaliers are doing more damage and sometimes doubling. Earlygame is the hardest part of FE6, and hell, first time I played it, I ragequit on Chapter 7 for a while and that was NORMAL MODE. Without Marcus, you're just purposely making it harder for yourself.

Sure, they're fine once they actually get the needed levels under their belt, but where do they get those levels from? Cleaning up Marcus's mess, most likely. Marcus may not be as gamebreaking, but his job of making your life much easier and making your other units trainable is almost as good of an asset. I never play FE6 without at least one of these cavs (if I ditch one, it's because some terrible screwage happened) except when I do special runs like Echidna solo (attempted) or girls+Roy run, but while they're good, they're not /that/ good.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Luminescent Blade

[Anouleth]

Marcus' time as a good combat unit ends way before chapter 13. I guess if you want you can keep him around until then thanks to the amount of units they let you deploy, but he's certainly not up there at that point.

Even 12AS is still pretty good in the Isles and doubles a fair amount of stuff. I guess Chapter 12 is pretty unlikely, but I can see him being a decent choice in 10 and 11. I mean, how many units do you have that are likely to directly outperform his combat:

Zealot

Alan

Lance

Rutger

Dieck

Shin

Noah

Not all that many, really.

Alan and Lance are better than Marcus in efficient play as well (it's not him at the top of the tier list),

Well, the tier list hasn't been updated in a while. I can see why people would argue for them to move down, since when playing at dondon/GJ speeds it really is tough to get them levels. I got bored pretty quickly, but at the start of Chapter 5 Alan and Lance were level 4, and they might not have gotten that high if they hadn't been blessed.

[Mekkah]

I remember him trying to attack something that wasn't a Knight and the battle screen said "0 damage" and I checked to make sure I was correct.

1.5/10

otoh he is pretty amazing in fe6 terrible.gba but everyone hates it when i rate based on hacks i wonder why

Edited March 7, 2012 by Mekkah

[Tangerine]

Contrary to your claims, Marcus IS a godsend on HM. Like Onmi stated earlier, he may not ORKO everything, but he does leave everything with just enough HP for everyone to mop up. I found his combat fairly adequate on C13, actually, and he still has no problem handling the unpromoted cavs and the such. Enemies don't suck in FE6HM, especially earlygame. Earlygame is the hardest stretch to get through, and some of those enemies are utterly dicks compared to the quality of your team. Alance wouldn't even be very easily trainable weren't for Marcus leaving them piles of almost-dead shit to clean up. Sure, there's the loldiers, but beyond those scrubs that even /Thany/ (read: lol 4 str slim lance) can 2RKO they do terribly underwhelming damage to cavaliers which make up the bulk of the enemies in C4. There's two people with actual reliable durability and combat on that map, and that's Marcus and Dieck. Lot hits something like 50% with a Halberd and is doubled sometimes, so it's a cointoss with him. Roy can damage them once decently, but his durability is ass, rapier has 25 uses, and doesn't work against Nomads. Bors is lol. Ward is lol. I spend a lot of earlygame feeding kills to Alance whenever I could, yet Alan does something like 8 damage at low hitrates and Lance does something like 5x2 if he proc'd enough speed to double at that point. It's not very favourable in my book that the enemy cavaliers are doing more damage and sometimes doubling. Earlygame is the hardest part of FE6, and hell, first time I played it, I ragequit on Chapter 7 for a while and that was NORMAL MODE. Without Marcus, you're just purposely making it harder for yourself.

Sure, they're fine once they actually get the needed levels under their belt, but where do they get those levels from? Cleaning up Marcus's mess, most likely. Marcus may not be as gamebreaking, but his job of making your life much easier and making your other units trainable is almost as good of an asset. I never play FE6 without at least one of these cavs (if I ditch one, it's because some terrible screwage happened) except when I do special runs like Echidna solo (attempted) or girls+Roy run, but while they're good, they're not /that/ good.

FE6 Marcus is great, he is not FE7 Marcus. He is not a god in the early game. Being a "god" is not the same as being integral. Alan and Lance are integral to early-game success as well, just not to the same degree. It's not like they don't exist during that time. Just because they're not one rounding everything yet, it doesn't mean what they DO contribute shouldn't be taken into account. And they contribute a lot. You also cannot attribute all of their levels to Marcus, as they are able to deal with plenty of enemies without him.

How are Alan and Lance's durability not reliable in C4 if Dieck's is? What is reliable durability? Because Marcus isn't running out in the middle of a group of enemies any time soon himself, if that's your definition. With a C support with eachother at level 6 (Just a random stab at a level, they'll probably be above 6. I am assuming Dieck is at 9 here too, but someone can correct my levels if they like; haven't played even casually in forever) their durability is better than Dieck's on this map against almost every enemy. We can even throw a Roy C in since you said you don't use their mov. When you don't care about low turning they can improve pretty darn quickly.

@ Bold: Alan and Lance are the best units in the game. You basically just said what Marcus offers is only almost as good, which means you think they are overall better units. Which is reflected even on the efficiency tier list: he is lower than them but in the same tier.

It's not very favourable in my book that the enemy cavaliers are doing more damage and sometimes doubling.

It is impossible for cavs in c4 to double Alan and Lance unless you weigh yourself down (which is an option when trying to kill a hurt enemy, if you feel you're safe). Their base speed is too high for the enemy cavs' max speed at that point. Unless you were referring only to Halberd Lot, which would make no sense in the context of that statement. The Nomads can double base Alan, but that's it on that map.

Even 12AS is still pretty good in the Isles and doubles a fair amount of stuff. I guess Chapter 12 is pretty unlikely, but I can see him being a decent choice in 10 and 11. I mean, how many units do you have that are likely to directly outperform his combat:

Zealot

Alan

Lance

Rutger

Dieck

Shin

Noah

Not all that many, really.

Well, the tier list hasn't been updated in a while. I can see why people would argue for them to move down, since when playing at dondon/GJ speeds it really is tough to get them levels. I got bored pretty quickly, but at the start of Chapter 5 Alan and Lance were level 4, and they might not have gotten that high if they hadn't been blessed.

I didn't say he wasn't viable, I said he isn't "Marcus/10" up to that point. That's a fair amount of units to be worse than, most significantly.

I also don't think the efficiency tier lists are intended to take dondon/GJ speeds into account . That's not their purpose or their criteria. They abuse the RNG to achieve their turn counts, that would be a ridiculous criterion for a rating system. I'd agree with Miledy and Rutger > them, but I can't see them going lower than that based on those arguments.

Also Wolt is so unimpressive that a discussion about the previous polls broke out in his thread.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Tangerine

[Onmi]

Look we each have our justifications for our ratings. Some people are rating based on their HM Efficient playthroughs, others are not. The only ruling to the rating was it be in Hard Mode

THE RULES

- Ratings are assumed to be on Hard Mode.

- Votes need some explanation regarding their gameplay performance to be counted. If somebody else said what you want to already, quote them explicitly.

Nothing about efficiency, nothing about casual, just that it has to be Hard Mode. Can we stop having this argument now? if Integrity wants to say "From now on all ratings consider Efficiency/Ranks/How many hats they can wear on their ass" then it will appear in the rules.

Can we go back to pointing out how much Wolt sucks now?

[Tangerine]

Yes, I am saying that Marcus is worse no matter what (reasonable) criteria is used, so the scores do not reflect gameplay. I understand the scores are that way based on the allowing of bias in the polls; I am only responding because my statement on their gameplay was challenged. The discussion we are having is more or less unrelated to the poll at this point.

It should probably move to PM if there is any intention of continuing it.

Edit: Will use PM then.

v

Edited March 8, 2012 by Tangerine

[Thor Odinson]

Might've remembered Alan vs Nomad, then, which is even more dickish than Cavs in some ways since they are dodgy, nobody has effective to those dicks, and might double you. But a C support isn't doing much to their durability, since AnimaFire is only half defense. Full avo, yes, but assuming more than a C support at this point even with 30+2 is too much so that's 5 avo and no def which doesn't do a hell lot to help their durability. Marcus's durability is enough for him to take one squadron of horsepeople (IIRC they come in 4s, 3 cavs and a nomad) before having to drink something or get healed, but Alance don't have the HP at that point. I usually have those two at 5 going into C4, so while Alan has .2 def over 9/ Dieck then, Dieck has more HP, and can deal more damage while doubling sometimes for pretty good damage. Lance is even less defensively oriented, at that.

And that's why Marcus is nearly a point lower than FE7 Marcus on the ratings. If he was that gamebreaking he'd deserve a 10 WITHOUT any bias. Hell, FE7 Marcus should've gotten a 10, but some people decided to put in a 7 there for some reasons. Alance never really shined much. Their best time is around midgame, but hell, one of them can't even promote until Percival joins, and unless you would purposely nerf Percival that's after chapter 15. That's not exactly an optimal promotion time, either.

And okay back to wolt now goddamn I type slow

Edited March 8, 2012 by Luminescent Blade

[Onmi]

BACK TO WOLT, the big problem for Wolt is pretty much the same problem with 90% of the Est's and almost every Armor Knight. Even after 12 games IntSyst has no idea how to balance them! The early game archer starts with Range 2, so of course he should be weaker cause he doesn't take counter attacks right? And his growths should be decent to bring him up to speed. The problem with that is obvious, No Enemy Phase to do damage, low defense, low res, poor bases. I mentioned it earlier but I'm saying it again. If you only have the Player Phase to do damage you best be killing and/or crippling whoever you attack. Lets take a look at even NM for FE6. Against the average fighter Alan will hit for 10, Lance for 18 (9x2), Marcus will One-Shot, Bors wont hit (We'll get to Armor Knights when we rate Bors) Roy will hit for 8 and has WTA and Wolt? Same as Roy, except unlike Roy he doesn't get to counterattack. So he's the lowest damage dealer on the field (Bors has to do damage to be counted as a Damage Dealer) and will only 3RKO a fighter, So will Roy, but lets say Roy attacks a fighter, and wins his counter, it only takes him 2 turns to do what takes Wolt 3. Alan and Lance will kill the enemy Fighter on Counter-Attack, Marcus killed it outright.

So Wolt's Primary use in Chapter 1 is clean-up or chipping for Roy.

EXCEPT this is considering Normal mode, and the moment we start considering Hard mode the shit hits the fan. Because the already underpowered Wolt is made even more worthless by the now godly enemies. I have yet to find an early game archer that IS has gotten right. Especially when we start considering Nomads or god fucking forbid mages "They're like Archers! except they don't suck, and hit for the defensive stat units have less of"

[Duff Ostrich]

Alan and Lance are better than Marcus in efficient play as well (it's not him at the top of the tier list)

You might want to check the Alan/Lance thread for a (very brief) discussion between myself, dondon, and a few others regarding this issue. Though I do agree with you that Alan and Lance are better than Marcus (and the best characters in the game), I'd still say that Marcus is potentially useful for a very long period of time. His weapon levels go a very long way to mitigating his crumbling attack score. His speed is good enough to not get doubled anywhere outside of Sacae, with few exceptions, and that helps a lot. I gave him an 8.5 in his thread and I did not intend for my personal biases to be reflected in that score (nor in my 10 and 9.5 for Lance and Alan).

But yeah... Wolt

Wolt is awful, and the only thing saving him from a zero is forced deployment. He is the second least useful unit you have access to for the early game (tomorrow's character gets the distinction for worst) and he is so weak and frail and everything that you'd swear he was made bad on purpose. I mean seriously, 10 attack and 5 AS with an iron bow, and 22 attack is all it takes to one shot him (chapter one fighters can have 18 attack).

1.5

Edited March 8, 2012 by Duff Ostrich

[Biabarr]

2/10

Wolt has the problem that he is an archer without a mount like a nomad. His main use is to weak enemies in the beginning so that Roy can kill them.

[Tangerine]

Stop continuing the Alan/Lance/Marcus discussion in this thread please. We've already moved it to PM to avoid derailing the thread any further. I am a little surprised I have to state this again :P.

The thread derailment rules don't stop existing just because I am part of a going-off-topic discussion, so come on :P.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Tangerine

[Culpa]

Wolt is decent chip until chapter 6 comes then you get both Dorthy and Sue. At that point he is level 4 at best. Considering a level 4 Wolt has equal or worse stats then both their bases with the exception of .6 def 1 hp on Dorthy and 2 hp on sue he isn't exactly making a strong argument for his continued use. That is before we account for the fact that both Sue and Dorthy have better growths. He is useful for his accurate chip early game so that someone more competent doesn't have to eat a counter, or killing someone that dodged due to the bad hit rates of this game. His stats also make him one of the top 3 most likely to get benched after Merlinus, the other 2 being Bors and Ward.

2/10 He at least provide reliable early game chip and is unlikely to be doubled by anything that's not a nomad.

[tiff]

Accurate chip damage for his forced period but unlikely to contribute anything of real use after that.

2/10