Rate the Unit, Day 26: Tormod

[Shadow Mir]

Also, it's not my fault I can't help but be realistic, even if I go overboard from time to time. I'm just not the type to burn a massive amount of BEXP on someone like Tormod, who joins underleveled when your party's nearing promotion. Celerity's nice and all, but as he's a backliner... it just isn't as big of a selling point as it could've been IMHO.

[Snowy_One]

He joins late and is pretty underleveled. If the effort is put into him, he does turn out fairly well and has a nice movement boost, but I generally prefer the earlier joining time of the other two sages or the instant usability of Calill. I don't really have much to say about him on the whole.

6/10

[aku chi]

Now we're getting somewhere. So Makalov is clearly more valuable than Tormod in at least the following chapters: 16, 17-1, 17-2, 17-4 (though neither can do much in the conventional flier clear), 18 (let's assume we didn't steal the C17-4 Meteor, shall we), 19, 24, and 28. How about the remainder?

C20: Tormod can contribute to killing Shiharam with Meteor. Makalov can (help) get Rescue or Smite. Advantage Tormod.

C21: Maybe Tormod can chip at Ena with Meteor, but it's unlikely that this damage will be significant to the clear. Makalov can (help) get an Energy Drop. Tie.

C22: Makalov can contribute to a Paladin-rush 1-turn clear, I believe. But Tormod can use siege tomes for a more straight-forward 1-turn clear that keeps safe the priests. Advantage Tormod.

C23: Tormod might be able to OHKO some Ballistae operators and chip at Petrine. Makalov can clear enemies, ferry Ike, and/or attack Petrine. Tie.

C25: Tormod wins.

C26: Tormod might be able to stay safe and get close enough to ping Bertram. Makalov can ferry Ike or kill Bertram. Advantage Makalov.

C27: Tormod can siege Hafedd if there are any uses left. Makalov can kill Hafedd or Arrive. Advantage Makalov.

Endgame: Makalov can help clear the Generals/Bryce. Tormod can do the same. Tie.

All things considered, Makalov is more valuable in far more chapters than Tormod. I fail to see how one could claim that Tormod can contribute more towards completing the game than Makalov.

[Dark Sage]

but

makarovu looks like ronald mcdonald

so he automatically sux

[Lord Raven]

tormod can chip the sage and prevent the bishop from putting marcia/ike to sleep, advantage tormod

chapter 19 neither are doing shit

chapters 17, either all units are necessary or makalov is doing jack all

chapter 16, they all suck

makalov sucks at clearing enemies generally, and you'd rather have fliers carry ike (tormod kills the ballista operators to make this possible)

chapter 24 they're equally useless

chapter 26, having a siege user against Bertram is always good news, because bertram is fucking ridiculous as a boss. makalov can't do much against him, and tormod's good with healing some characters because enemies have atk and hit rate

chapter 27, makalov's not doing shit aside from breaking down a wall

not to mention they need the same resource dump

makalov's extremely redundant hence "not doing shit," which is what makes tormod more useful. in a tier list setting, it would be harder to argue in favor of tormod compared to makalov, and thats why makalov is higher; because makalov is a better unit. but i don't feel rating units works like that, because while makalov is indeed better, tormod has generally a lot more uniqueness and use, and a "rate the unit" thing compared to a tier list is quite different in that regard because the person rating the unit can rate utility however which way he wants. far less rigid and methodical than a tier list

and from here on out, do not expect a serious respond from me, because i'm sick of arguing this against people who think my rating and praise come out of nowhere

Edited April 30, 2012 by Lord Raven

[Sunwoo]

I hate to sound like a jerk, but ...

6.5/10 (7.5 after bias). Has a slow start and is a bit of a pain to get to promote, but hey, it pays off handsomely. Also, she has good supports (everyone but Rolf).

This is your rating for Mist. You say you don't want to dump lots of BEXP into Tormod, which I can understand. I don't like to dump more than 200 or 300 BEXP into any one person in one sitting. But you apparently forgave Mist for needing lots of BEXP as well if she wants to promote in a timely manner and for "paying off handsomely". You also ignored that giving BEXP to Mist takes away from giving that same BEXP from Marcia and Jill, and that she needs BEXP at a time when more people want/need it.

[Shadow Mir]

I hate to sound like a jerk, but ...

This is your rating for Mist. You say you don't want to dump lots of BEXP into Tormod, which I can understand. I don't like to dump more than 200 or 300 BEXP into any one person in one sitting. But you apparently forgave Mist for needing lots of BEXP as well if she wants to promote in a timely manner and for "paying off handsomely". You also ignored that giving BEXP to Mist takes away from giving that same BEXP from Marcia and Jill, and that she needs BEXP at a time when more people want/need it.

Tormod takes away EXP from all those other units that could use it to get closer to promotion (since undoubtedly by the time he joins, the crux of your army is closing in on promotion, if not there already), so... What's your point?

Edited April 30, 2012 by Metal King Slime

[Sunwoo]

Tormod takes away EXP from all those other units that could use it to get closer to promotion (since undoubtedly by the time he joins, the crux of your army is closing in on promotion, if not there already), so... What's your point?

Mist takes away BEXP from units when they need it more. In particular, she takes away BEXP from Marcia and Jill, most noticeably, and Kieran may like a level or two to get him moving faster. Mist takes BEXP when there is less of it and when units need it more. I can forgive Tormod for taking BEXP at a time when less people need it, because I can promote people just by having them fight, and I'm pretty sure I have more BEXP than when Mist needed it.

My point is that I'm finding it hard to ignore how you penalize Tormod for needing BEXP, but you forgave Mist for needing BEXP at a time when more people need it and when there is less of it.

[Lord Raven]

there is a lot of bexp in this game i put 1700 in marcia and a million more into ike, boyd, jill, makalov, astrid, tormod, soren, and oscar and they are all at a decent level

[Shadow Mir]

Mist takes away BEXP from units when they need it more. In particular, she takes away BEXP from Marcia and Jill, most noticeably, and Kieran may like a level or two to get him moving faster. Mist takes BEXP when there is less of it and when units need it more. I can forgive Tormod for taking BEXP at a time when less people need it, because I can promote people just by having them fight, and I'm pretty sure I have more BEXP than when Mist needed it.

My point is that I'm finding it hard to ignore how you penalize Tormod for needing BEXP, but you forgave Mist for needing BEXP at a time when more people need it and when there is less of it.

Well, the difference lies in the payoff, as I see it; the only other mounted healer aside from a trained Mist is Elincia, who comes laaaaaaate, whereas other than the 2 extra move that Tormod has to offer (which, as I previously stated, doesn't help Tormod's case enough to make up for the massive BEXP drain he is IMO), Calill's pretty serviceable as far as sages go.

there is a lot of bexp in this game i put 1700 in marcia and a million more into ike, boyd, jill, makalov, astrid, tormod, soren, and oscar and they are all at a decent level

That's only really true if you play efficiently. Guess what I do NOT do...? For Pete's sake, I stated in an earlier topic that I don't care about efficient play.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Metal King Slime

[Lord Raven]

if i'm getting so much bexp without efficient play, you'd imagine you'd get tons more BEXP and CEXP in non-efficient play...

[Colonel M]

Not to mention training Tormod is even LESS of an issue in non-efficient play.

Backwards logic much?

[Anouleth]

chapter 26, having a siege user against Bertram is always good news, because bertram is fucking ridiculous as a boss. makalov can't do much against him, and tormod's good with healing some characters because enemies have atk and hit rate

you know what's also good, Makalov going up to Bertram and hitting him for damage that's just as good as Tormod's and also being able to take hits.

chapter 27, makalov's not doing shit aside from breaking down a wall

Chapter 27: Ike solo

tell me how fast that goes

makalov's extremely redundant hence "not doing shit," which is what makes tormod more useful.

Every character is redundant except for Reyson and Elincia. Tormod is redundant, he doesn't do anything that Soren can't do (yet Soren got two fewer points).

[Sunwoo]

Well, the difference lies in the payoff, as I see it; the only other mounted healer aside from a trained Mist is Elincia, who comes laaaaaaate, whereas other than the 2 extra move that Tormod has to offer (which, as I previously stated, doesn't help Tormod's case enough to make up for the massive BEXP drain he is IMO), Calill's pretty serviceable as far as sages go.

And as I started before in the Mist thread, I don't really see why Mist being a mounted healer is so awesome in PoR. Unlike Clarine or Priscilla, Mist does not start off mounted. She has E staves. She requires an entire 900-1000 BEXP to even think about promoting, and she comes in the same chapter as Marcia and two or three before Jill. Mist is just as much of a BEXP drain as Tormod is, if not more. With the amount of physic staves that you can grab in this game, and the lack of Warp staves and the Rescue staff coming in late (and the Restore staff only being important for a handful of chapters), I don't see why Mist is such an investment. She's stuck with SWORDS for combat after she promotes as well, so let's not even consider her combat as a selling point.

That's only really true if you play efficiently. Guess what I do NOT do...? For Pete's sake, I stated in an earlier topic that I don't care about efficient play.

I don't know how many times I'll have to say it, but I do not play efficient play either. I use who I like, however I like, and take as many turns as I need to grab all the treasure and kill all the reinforcements. But if we all judged units in RTU topics based on our own personal playstyles, our scores are going to be all over the place. Also, taking other people's playstyles into account is not a bad thing when it comes to rating stuff. Otherwise, let's just call this: "give your opinion on the unit thread"!

[Lord Raven]

you know what's also good, Makalov going up to Bertram and hitting him for damage that's just as good as Tormod's and also being able to take hits.

runesword has a good shot at hitting makalov, bertram has defense, etc

Chapter 27: Ike solo

tell me how fast that goes

oscar/marcia/jill/kieran makes him largely redundant, ike certaintly doesnt help

he really does nothing special

Every character is redundant except for Reyson and Elincia. Tormod is redundant, he doesn't do anything that Soren can't do (yet Soren got two fewer points).

1 point per move

he can also take hits better than soren, use stronger tomes without AS loss etc etc, makalov has nothing going for him over the other pallies where tormod has a lot going for him over other sages, hence he's not redundant

[Anouleth]

runesword has a good shot at hitting makalov, bertram has defense, etc

Makalov also doubles while Tormod does not, thanks to the Knight Ward.

oscar/marcia/jill/kieran makes him largely redundant, ike certaintly doesnt help

he really does nothing special

Oscar/Marcia/Jill/Kieran don't do anything special in that chapter either. What does Tormod do in that chapter that is "special"? Does that mean that nobody can take credit for doing anything in chapter 27 since all possible contributions are not unique?

Jill is redundant anyway. She's unlikely to even be recruited in an efficient playthrough.

1 point per move

he can also take hits better than soren, use stronger tomes without AS loss etc etc, makalov has nothing going for him over the other pallies where tormod has a lot going for him over other sages, hence he's not redundant

Makalov has better stats than most other Paladins, so it's not really true that Makalov has nothing going for him.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Anouleth

[VGE]

*Laziness, so jump to last page*

I'm going to briefly go over Easy Mode. On easy mode, since you get a lot of EXP, Ilyana, or Soren (maybe even both) would already be promoted by the time you get Tormod. So, using 3 (or 2, whatever) mages is less likely. On Normal mode, I'm sure your mage/s would be close to promoting, and if not, Soren most likely would be. (If using the two) Tormod comes at a bad level, and in order to make him pretty useful, you need to not only BEXP him (which I never do) or Boss Abuse him against the recent boss. He does have Celerity, and isn't forced to use knives like Calill & Bastian. I always thought he was piss poor, and would never provide. I used him once, and I did not regret it.

Eh. 6/10, Wynaut.

[Lord Raven]

Makalov also doubles while Tormod does not, thanks to the Knight Ward.

Oscar/Marcia/Jill/Kieran don't do anything special in that chapter either. What does Tormod do in that chapter that is "special"? Does that mean that nobody can take credit for doing anything in chapter 27 since all possible contributions are not unique?

coming in? i doubt makalov doubles. they both need resources to double (BEXP/KW) obviously, but no, bertram has 20 spd and makalov's likely to be around 20/5ish, where i doubt he'll have the 24 spd he needs to double

furthermore, bertram has 23 def and 19 res, tormod has potential for +5 atk and his tomes whereas makalov doesnt have much going for him in terms of supports. i guess his niche is protecting reyson... enemies are a little tough in this chapter after all

Jill is redundant anyway. She's unlikely to even be recruited in an efficient playthrough.

she's likely to be used/recruited (good offense and a second flier at the cost of 3-4 turns is really not a bad deal), but you need more combat units than marcia. makalov barely does anything because of units like jill/oscar/kieran

Makalov has better stats than most other Paladins, so it's not really true that Makalov has nothing going for him.

yeah but having ridiculous offense for 2/3 of the game (ie oscar/kieran) is better than having that for 1/3 of the game

but i have said makalov's a better unit, so i'm not necessarily arguing that

i just feel tormod's has a better niche and these RTU threads let me go off about what i like about him and how i prefer my units, as opposed to on tier lists where its considerably more mechanical. on a tier thread most of these arguments would not fly

Edited April 30, 2012 by Lord Raven

[Shadow Mir]

if i'm getting so much bexp without efficient play, you'd imagine you'd get tons more BEXP and CEXP in non-efficient play...

Well, we ARE talking hard mode, which chops the clear bonus, so I'd be more inclined to say you're half right.

And as I started before in the Mist thread, I don't really see why Mist being a mounted healer is so awesome in PoR. Unlike Clarine or Priscilla, Mist does not start off mounted. She has E staves. She requires an entire 900-1000 BEXP to even think about promoting, and she comes in the same chapter as Marcia and two or three before Jill. Mist is just as much of a BEXP drain as Tormod is, if not more. With the amount of physic staves that you can grab in this game, and the lack of Warp staves and the Rescue staff coming in late (and the Restore staff only being important for a handful of chapters), I don't see why Mist is such an investment. She's stuck with SWORDS for combat after she promotes as well, so let's not even consider her combat as a selling point.

I don't know how many times I'll have to say it, but I do not play efficient play either. I use who I like, however I like, and take as many turns as I need to grab all the treasure and kill all the reinforcements. But if we all judged units in RTU topics based on our own personal playstyles, our scores are going to be all over the place. Also, taking other people's playstyles into account is not a bad thing when it comes to rating stuff. Otherwise, let's just call this: "give your opinion on the unit thread"!

Well, while it's true that Mist doesn't start mounted, I still find having a mounted healer before Elincia comes to be a big luxury.

[Anouleth]

coming in? i doubt makalov doubles. they both need resources to double (BEXP/KW) obviously, but no, bertram has 20 spd and makalov's likely to be around 20/5ish, where i doubt he'll have the 24 spd he needs to double

Actually, Bertram has 22SPD. The Knight Ward is also not a resource since putting it on Makalov does not "use it up". Makalov can get a huge amount of use of it without negatively impacting anyone.

Also, you underrate levels.

furthermore, bertram has 23 def and 19 res, tormod has potential for +5 atk and his tomes whereas makalov doesnt have much going for him in terms of supports. i guess his niche is protecting reyson... enemies are a little tough in this chapter after all

Yeah sure. Calill will somehow keep up with Tormod.

she's likely to be used/recruited (good offense and a second flier at the cost of 3-4 turns is really not a bad deal)

0-2 turns in exchange for 3-4 turns

uh

no thanks

, but you need more combat units than marcia. makalov barely does anything because of units like jill/oscar/kieran

Jill/Oscar/Kieran clearly barely does anything either since they're pretty much the same as Makalov give or take axe rank for Kieran.

yeah but having ridiculous offense for 2/3 of the game (ie oscar/kieran) is better than having that for 1/3 of the game

Kieran joins four chapters earlier than Makalov, and I can't say I'm exactly impressed with him in Chapter 12. Moreover, the point still stands. If Kieran somehow makes Makalov "redundant" in every chapter, then Makalov is going to make Kieran "redundant" in every chapter minus chapters 11 and 13.

The reality is that all of the 9 move paladins in this game ALL make each other redundant past a certain point because they all pretty much do the same thing. You mention Oscar and Kieran, but there's also Astrid and Titania who are pretty much more of the same.

but i have said makalov's a better unit, so i'm not necessarily arguing that

i just feel tormod's has a better niche and these RTU threads let me go off about what i like about him and how i prefer my units, as opposed to on tier lists where its considerably more mechanical. on a tier thread most of these arguments would not fly

Well, as long as you admit that you don't think your rating is actually correct, I guess I can't really object to that.

[Lord Raven]

Well, as long as you admit that you don't think your rating is actually correct, I guess I can't really object to that.

i think 8/10 works for tormod because i'm placing a different emphasis on what i'm rating him on than, say, makalov

[Colonel M]

Also considering MKS's retarded rating, I think the 8/10 can stay...

...Unless we can toss his vote out.

[Shadow Mir]

Also considering MKS's retarded rating, I think the 8/10 can stay...

...Unless we can toss his vote out.

Hey, I edited my vote.

[Colonel M]

Hey, I edited my vote.

What the fuck was edited?

4/10. He joins underleveled, and with bases that aren't even much better than what Soren or Ilyana had, and they had a huge availability edge on him. While he has Celerity, which I'd consider helpful, it's too bad that his coming underleveled means the damage is already done IMO.

Because this screams nothing more than "Soren / Ilyana exists earlier, therefore they're better!"

Even though they're both utter shit with 5-6 Mov, but that's besides the point.

[Shadow Mir]

Because this screams nothing more than "Soren / Ilyana exists earlier, therefore they're better!"

Even though they're both utter shit with 5-6 Mov, but that's besides the point.

I just can't ignore that Tormod's bases are marginally better than theirs, and the fact he joins in midgame doesn't really help. Also, personally, I prefer the other two mages' potential to contribute early.