Magic being grouped together and no magic triangle

[CrashGordon94]

Well, if this is a gameplay issue, please explain how splitting them up would help anything. Every time the anima triangle gets split up, one magic type is clearly better than the others, and that's that. They're different for the sake of variety, but it doesn't really add much. Here at least no units get screwed over by the split. Or would you enjoy having a wind mage that needs to go a full rank of tomes up to match a thunder mage's damage output for the sake of "variety?"

It really wouldn't be that hard to make Wind/Fire/Thunder magic that was balanced.

And besides that, I went over this in another thread. I can pull up the post if you want.

I didn't say they are seperate weapon types,I simply said that anima magic is still divided into different elements,which all belong to the same weapon type,which is a good thing,because the way anima magic was split in radiant dawn was simply unnecessary...

But that's not a split! If they're in the same weapon type, they're not split!

[Just call me AL]

But that's not a split! If they're in the same weapon type, they're not split!

Put it this way. Would you rather spend practically forever trying to raise multiple weapon ranks of the same weapon type, or would you want every single spell at your disposal with using the effort of raising the rank for one magic type? I'd definitely prefer the latter, as it means I can go about my merry way completing the game without needing a particular type of magic. Adding to that, if the tome ranks were split, then there would be an imbalance, as other people have mentioned. I don't know how close to fully balanced the FE13 tome system makes magic in general, but it's certainly a better balance than in FEs 4-10. I don't know much about FE5, due to not having the pleasure of playing it. But Wind magic was certainly the best magic type in FE4 because every anima tome had the same strength depending on weapon ranks, and Wind magic was the overall lightest of the bunch. Conversely in FE6, Light magic was the worst because, well, let's be honest here. How long are you willing to spend grinding those magic levels? It can't be very long. And not to mention, Shamans/Druids weren't common, last I checked. But then again, the same could be said for enemy magic users in general.

And completely split or not, the magic in FE13 still has unique qualities in each spell that sets it different from another spell. You claim to be concerned about uniqueness in magic types, and FE13 has that. So why aren't you saitisfied? Because of something so abyssmal as different weapon ranks or the lack of a magic triangle? Isn't uniqueness the one of the most important things here? If it eases the worry of raising a weapon rank to be able to use certain spells, and there's more of a balance between spells than in other FEs, why complain?

Edited May 13, 2012 by Fancy Grunt

[Othin]

FE13 has a large number of elemental spells - some named Wind with bonus damage against fliers, some named Thunder with high power, some named Fire with more balance. All are within one weapon type.

That is what the person claimed, and it is factually true.

[Saethori]

Just out of curiosity...

Don't we already have a thread dedicated to the anima triangle? Why exactly is there over a page of that thread in here instead?

[Just call me AL]

Just out of curiosity...

Don't we already have a thread dedicated to the anima triangle? Why exactly is there over a page of that thread in here instead?

A certain Aquabat was experiencing growth spurts due to disagreeing with other people as far as uniqueness in magic tomes in this game went. Possibly due to being in denial.

Anywho... If anyone in this topic feels that it would be more appropriate in the topic you mentioned (And why wouldn't it?), I would definitely be happy to bring the discussion over there. Especially in hopes that this discussion doesn't overtake the topic at hand.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Fancy Grunt

[CrashGordon94]

Put it this way. Would you rather spend practically forever trying to raise multiple weapon ranks of the same weapon type, or would you want every single spell at your disposal with using the effort of raising the rank for one magic type?

Yeah, if they have multiple ranks, that's multiple weapon types.

And that same argument could be used to say that Swords, Lances and Axes should be merged into one weapon type called "Melee".

And in any case raising Fire, Thunder and Wind doesn't have to take forever, tome WEXP could be much higher! And if it's being used properly you won't ALWAYS have all three so that would only be an issue for certain specific classes anyway.

Adding to that, if the tome ranks were split, then there would be an imbalance, as other people have mentioned.

Not necessarily, does the word "balancing" mean anything to you? I really don't get why people flaunt this "It was broken before so it must ALWAYS be broken!" shit...

And completely split or not, the magic in FE13 still has unique qualities in each spell that sets it different from another spell.

THAT'S NOT A FUCKING SPLIT! And I know you said "completely split or not" but that's not split at all!

So why aren't you saitisfied? Because of something so abyssmal as different weapon ranks or the lack of a magic triangle?

Yes. Those could be really awesome with a little bit of tweaking for balance, more classes that use only part of the nature triangle and maybe for mage-to-mage combat being stronger in some cases and such. Hell, I'd even take FE9 or FE10's system with a quick slap-on patch to make some stuff less broken than this shitty system!

Isn't uniqueness the one of the most important things here?

Yes, why is why having a split is good!

If it eases the worry of raising a weapon rank to be able to use certain spells, and there's more of a balance between spells than in other FEs, why complain?

Firstly, WRT raising multiple weapon ranks, I already said that could be made easier or are you just allergic to having to put ANY effort in? Because then you might as well say that Swords/Lances/Axes should share a weapon rank so that your Pallies don't have to fuck around with numerous weapon ranks to use lots of things or so you can hand your Pirate a Sword for better accuracy, same thing!

And WRT balance, there's nothing preventing you from balancing spells in a split environment, in fact that could act as an encouragement to balance spells because someone could be locked to one of them and people would have to work with it whereas the FE13 system could have people throwing out whatever they want.

FE13 has a large number of elemental spells - some named Wind with bonus damage against fliers, some named Thunder with high power, some named Fire with more balance. All are within one weapon type.

That is what the person claimed, and it is factually true.

But that's not a split in any way, shape or form. It's as meaningless as Iron/Steel/Silver or Swords versus Blades in this context so it's factually incorrect.

[Just call me AL]

Just gonna continue this so-called discussion with Crash McLarson on this thread because some people might complain otherwise.

Yeah, if they're multiple weapon ranks, that's multiple weapon types.

1. We're focused on Magic now. 2. You didn't answer my first question. Either that, or your answer was too vague.

And that same argument could be used to say that Swords, Lances, and Axes should be merged into one weapon type called "Melee".

Except for the fact that there's far too many weapons accounted for, and none of them save some weapons target RES. And the fact that every weapon is different, and only certain classes can use certain weapons. And not to mention the Weapon Triangle still exists. That matters more than the Magic Triangle because enemies that use melee weapons are far more common than enemies that use magic.

And in any case, raising Fire, Thunder, and Wind doesn't have to take forever. Tome WEXP could be much higher!

And what if the FE in question doesn't have separate WEXP gains for every weapon? Like FEs 5, 6, 11, & 12? That's one proposed solution thrown out the window.

And if it's being used properly, you won't ALWAYS have all three so that would only be an issue for certain specific classes anyway.

What else do you think is going to happen when you break apart Anima magic? Really! You make it sound like Mages easily have just as much proficiency in magic as someone like a Cavalier in Lances and Swords or a Warrior in Axes and Bows when they don't. There's some exceptions to this, but said exceptions are so few in number that it isn't funny.

Not necessarily. Does the word "balancing" mean anything to you?

Do the words "one type is certain to trump the other two whenever there's a split magic system" mean anything to you? If it happened in FE4 with Wind magic, FE9 with Thunder magic, and FE10 with Fire magic, who's to say it won't happen again? And what makes you think that the ideas you proposed are going to work anyways? Sure you could give different Anima mages a weapon type that fits their element, but there's the problem of the Magic Triangle remaining as useless and redundant as always, and the problem of the fact that not many mages, as it stands, have high STR and DEF growths and bases.

I really don't get why people flaunt this "it was broken before so it must ALWAYS be broken" shit...

They're not saying that at all. They're saying that I.S. is liable to run into problems trying to balance magic if they keep it separate. With keeping magic together, the problems with the balance are nonexistent. I don't know why you keep insisting keeping the magics separate is better than having them together while you have yet to provide a reason why keeping them separate is better than keeping them together when everyone else gave you more than good enough reasons for the opposite.

THAT'S NOT A FUCKING SPLIT! And I know you said "completely split or not" but that's not a split at all!

You can still have uniqueness without any splits at all. Even the previous two FEs prove this, despite having a noticeably lower quantity of spells to choose from.

Yes. Those could be really awesome with a little bit of tweaking for balance, more classes that use only part of the nature triangle and maybe for mage-to-mage combat being stronger in some cases and such.

The only way you could do that is if mages were made more common enemies instead of melee units. Which isn't highly likely to happen anytime soon.

Hell, I'd even take FE9's or FE10's system with a quick slap-on patch to make some stuff less broken than this shitty system!

How is using a modified version of the system in FEs 9&10 better than using the system in FE 13? And how is FE13's system "shitty" in any way? Because you say so? Sorry, but there's a difference between opinions and fact, and your gripes with FE13's magic system are the former. And if you ask me, it's a pretty bad opinion at that.

Yes. That is why having a split is good!

Again. You don't need a complete split for uniqueness. The same could be said for certain types of food made in certain countries such as cheeses or meats. Every single country has different takes on general food. Even a single steak can taste different from other steaks due to the spices used to cook it with, but it's still the same kind of food regardless.

Firstly, WRT raising weapon ranks, are you allergic to having to put ANY effort in? Because then you might as well say that Swords/Lances/Axes should share a weapon rank so that your Pallies don't have to fuck around with numerous weapon ranks to use lots of things or so you can hand your Pirate a Sword for better accuracy, same thing!

Oh, lol no. As I said earlier on in this post, it's not that simple. There are too many weapons to count, and various different classes are suited for various different weapon types. Here's a fun fact that you might have forgotten. Every single weapon had a single master rank before FE4. Did that mean every class could use every weapon in the game depending on the rank? Nope! They were restricted to only using specific types of weapons. I don't think I have to list which class used which weapon. But the fact remains is that what you're trying to say here isn't the same thing as having every spell in the game together like in the Archanea FEs.

And WRT balance, there's nothing preventing you from balancing spells in a split environment. In fact that could act as an encouragement to balance spells because someone could be locked to one of them and people would have to work with it whereas the FE13 system could have people throwing out whatever they want.

Once again ignoring the fact that mages are a rarity on the battlefield, which makes the magic triangle pretty much null. And there's also the different stats one spell type is going to have in comparison to others of the same level, which is the main reason magic is so imbalanced in FE9 for example.

But that's not a split in any way, shape, or form. It's as meaningless as Iron/Steel/Silver or Swords versus Blades in this context so it's factually incorrect.

How is what I said in any way "factually incorrect"? You're acting like every single tome's the same thing over and over when this is clearly not the case. I repeat: You. Don't. Need. A. Complete. Split. To. Give. Every. Tome. Unique. Properties.

Well, this was a fun read-through.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Fancy Grunt

[Othin]

But that's not a split in any way, shape or form. It's as meaningless as Iron/Steel/Silver or Swords versus Blades in this context so it's factually incorrect.

It's not what you mean by split. It is regardless meaningful to people.

[BlueLore]

yep,I mean it is not like "split" is a defined term,that always describes the split into different weapon types....

[arvilino]

Firstly, WRT raising multiple weapon ranks, I already said that could be made easier or are you just allergic to having to put ANY effort in? Because then you might as well say that Swords/Lances/Axes should share a weapon rank so that your Pallies don't have to fuck around with numerous weapon ranks to use lots of things or so you can hand your Pirate a Sword for better accuracy, same thing!

And WRT balance, there's nothing preventing you from balancing spells in a split environment, in fact that could act as an encouragement to balance spells because someone could be locked to one of them and people would have to work with it whereas the FE13 system could have people throwing out whatever they want.

It's called Mages being versatile on account of them specialising in a magic stat and generally having lower HP,Speed and defense than other characters. Split Anima and the classes that use it and regardless of what you do(well unless you make them all the same/redundant) then your mages are pigeonholed, they become very situational units which is bad for combat units.

FE13 does it pretty well because they make Thunder Magic more expensive on account of it's higher might and crit rate, similarly enemy stats are pretty high to the point the difference in hit rates between the spells also matter. For example in Lunatic against Gangrel MU has about ~54% hit rate with Elthunder and a support bonus of +10 hit where with Elwind MU had 74% at the cost of 2 points of damage and 5% crit. Essentially the weaker spell was the more effective one based on circumstances. With a split system this would have meant I'd have needed an equally strong Wind Mage at the ready.

[Just call me AL]

Why is no one else bringing this discussion to the magic merge topic?

[Othin]

Why is no one else bringing this discussion to the magic merge topic?

Because we don't really care?

[Rewjeo]

Crash, do you know why it would be so ridiculous to combine all melee weapons into one weapon type? People's (biggest) issue wouldn't be gameplay. It would be that swords/lances/bows are just too fundamentally different to use in real life to be fused into one weapon type. On top of that, there are WAY more physical units (both player and enemy) in Fire Emblem than magical units. You already have several units of each type to choose from on the physical end, but fusing them all would make units incredibly redundant. There are only four mage units, though. If you split anima up, you would have one option for each magic type, and odds are that would make at least one of them (either magic type based on the unit, or the unit based on their magic type) not worth using. Now you at least have two mages and two dark mages.

And before you say "BUT THAT COULD BE DIFFERENT," that's just how it is. The magic types are unbalanced and you would have very few units who used them, and unless IS went with the intention of making magic much more common, that's how it would probably stay. That's what happened in Tellius. The magic split certainly could be made better, but I doubt IS would have gone ahead and done all of that if they had chosen to split magic here.

[Othin]

Also, Crash, you underestimate the difficulty of making it more varied.

Please give us an in-depth outline for exactly how you propose to make magic types different, preferably with a precise list of spells, their stats, and their effects. Something to the effect of this:

Wind

Mt: 3

Hit: 95

Wt: 2

Effect: Bonus damage against flying foes

Repeated for all spells you think should exist across all proposed magic types. Feel free to use any game's magic system as a basis if you so desire. Also, perhaps you might be willing to also describe what magic-using classes would exist in this hypothetical game, and which types each would use.

And before you complain, this is a completely reasonable request: I've gone far more in-depth in putting together ideas for games. Indeed, that has included precisely this sort of attempt to make five magic types relevant. It didn't go well. If you think you can do better, please demonstrate.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Othin

[Thief]

Just do what FE4 did. It's perfect, right?

[Book of Ereshkigal]

Who said FE4 was perfect?

[Retsudo]

On top of that, there are WAY more physical units (both player and enemy) in Fire Emblem than magical units. You already have several units of each type to choose from on the physical end, but fusing them all would make units incredibly redundant. There are only four mage units, though. If you split anima up, you would have one option for each magic type, and odds are that would make at least one of them (either magic type based on the unit, or the unit based on their magic type) not worth using. Now you at least have two mages and two dark mages.

Yes.

Merging sword, axes, and so on would a step on the path of redundancy unless the FE game featuring it really revamped things.

Also, magic users are treated as being different units compared to swordsmen, axemen, etc. They can attack both at range and close up unlike archers, They can heal others, they can put somebody to sleep, They can drain health and heal themselves using said health, they can use a staff to make that Hero over there go berserk and cut people. They are also smaller amount wise than swordsman, soldiers, etc. So it wouldn't be a big problem to have a single tome rank in FE13's case since again you don't have that many magic users compared to non-magic users.

Magic users aren't common enough for the magic triangle to be game shaking. And there aren't very many magic users who aren't boss characters who have a high amount of defense, so you can go ahead and kill them with Disadvantaged Sety or Shanan who can take care of them all.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Retsudo

[luchinania]

Good riddance to the magic triangle. The only thing it did for me was make it harder to train the mages using the arena, otherwise it served no purpose in any of my strategies. If IS decides to implement it again in the future and make it work, then maybe I'll change my tune.

[TheVinceKnight]

I'm loving most of the magic animations in this game: They are so good.

Can someone explain to me how Goetia is better than Falaflame?

Goetia has 19 mt, Falaflame has 16 mt. Both of them have the same hit and crit rates, only notable difference being Falaflame increases MAG by 5.

We don't have availibility to Holy Tome Naga or Holsety, unless they're gained by getting those star points.

And we don't have a Thunder A ranked magic yet.

[Othin]

I'm loving most of the magic animations in this game: They are so good.

Can someone explain to me how Goetia is better than Falaflame?

Goetia has 19 mt, Falaflame has 16 mt. Both of them have the same hit and crit rates, only notable difference being Falaflame increases MAG by 5.

We don't have availibility to Holy Tome Naga or Holsety, unless they're gained by getting those star points.

And we don't have a Thunder A ranked magic yet.

Yeah, Falaflame seems to flatly outclass Goetia. But Goetia might not be meant to be on that same level: Naga's presence indicates we'll probably see Loptous as the ultimate Dark spell.

Naga and Holsety are not available through fame points, if that's what you're asking.

[BBM]

The thing with Crash is that he thinks it is inherently better to have a split than for there to be no split. Looking at FE13's magic system, SPLIT ASIDE, the two magics seem to be very different and there is a clear difference between Mages and Dark Mages, and it seems reasonably balanced. Now, EVEN IF anima magic is split, and it's balanced, having 5 magic types as opposed to 2 or 3 does not make it an automatically better system. As long as Crash believes that it DOES make it so, any argument with him is useless.

[TheVinceKnight]

Yeah, Falaflame seems to flatly outclass Goetia. But Goetia might not be meant to be on that same level: Naga's presence indicates we'll probably see Loptous as the ultimate Dark spell.

Naga and Holsety are not available through fame points, if that's what you're asking.

Yeah, I was asking about Naga and Holsety through fame points. Oh well.

They're probably going to hand them out through DLC or Spotpass Weapons like that Luna spear.

I would not take the time to evenly train up magic tome ranks if they were separate. It would take forever.

A manual however can fix all of that as Manuals raise the weapons that anyone can equip.