What's wrong with Donny?

[BlueLore]

weak beats strong could be useful for classes that can only get to level 30,since those classes can use that skill even if they are fully leveled,because promoted enemies are treated as level 20+ their current level,so if we pair him with velvet(or nono,but then we'd have to choose from good growths and weak beats strong since villager is male only),her son could use weak beats strong as a taguel on level 30 and gain hit and avoid + 15 against late-game enemies.

That is at least the only way I can imagine this ability being useful for lategame....

[Othin]

You can return to lower levels easily enough in any class because of Change Seals so it isn't too difficult to set up the skill, but regardless, that +15 Hit/Avo isn't actually some huge change in the first place. Not on the level of other skills, at least, and just not very important on the scale of Donny's terribleness.

[Ciarre]

I believe that's only after they promote into 1st class SOLDIER. Even then, I'd rather give my Materia to someone like Anna who could make good use of it.

Gaia wants his materia back. And every ranked SOLDIER can use materia, I think.

Merc!Donny doesn't sound that bad though, since he can get both good growths and weapon saver.

[Anouleth]

Given how abjectly terrible he is, part of me wants to believe that Donny is a little in-joke by Intelligent Systems parodying the low-leveled "potential" unit archetype that a) is a nightmare to train, and b) doesn't end up all that great anyway. That's the only way I can wrap my mind around things like not having a lance-wielding promotion choice and his decidedly average growths.

I highly doubt it's a joke. No doubt it's difficult for an enlightened veteran like you to wrap your head around this, but many players do like growth characters. And I would like to know how you know that his growths are average.

As a parent, Donny is decent, if only because he can pass on a handful of decent skills. As a unit, however, he's on the level of Wendy and Sophia.

Wrong, again. Donny can at least escape from his pit of despair; Wendy cannot. FE13 seems to have a variety of resources that can be used to bolster weak units such as Double, or the "boost for 1 chapter" items, but Wendy has nothing. Even E Swords/Axes is not that great a negative, since it's only 15WEXP away from D.

That being said, they really should have given him Cavalier as an option.

Gaia wants his materia back. And every ranked SOLDIER can use materia, I think.

Merc!Donny doesn't sound that bad though, since he can get both good growths and weapon saver.

Weapon Saver seems a bit wasted on a unit who can't use any high rank weapons; but it will increase the longevity of a forge.

Edited May 20, 2012 by Anouleth

[Othin]

And I would like to know how you know that his growths are average.

http://bbs.fireemblem.net/read.php?tid=224190&fpage=1

Base growths

Donny

HP 50

Str 45

Mag 15

Skl 40

Spd 45

Luck 80

Def 35

Res 15

Krom

HP 45

Str 40

Mag 10

Skl 40

Spd 40

Luck 70

Def 35

Res 20

Total growths in base classes, and with Good Growths

Donny

HP 105

Str 75

Mag 35

Skl 65

Spd 70

Luck 100

Def 50

Res 40

Krom

HP 85

Str 60

Mag 10

Skl 60

Spd 60

Luck 70

Def 45

Res 25

If I'm understanding it right, those growths are fantastic.

Hmm. As a Villager 10 / Mercenary 10 / Hero 2 on my file, he has 41 HP and 30 Luck. This fits if he gained 19 HP and 19 Luck over his 19 levels. His HP growth is 115 as a Mercenary and as a Hero, but that's not a whole lot: it's quite plausible that he would stick to the basic +1 HP over that time.

Overall, as a Mercenary, his growths go up to the following:

HP 115

Str 85

Mag 35

Skl 85

Spd 85

Luck 100

Def 50

Res 40

Uh, wow. Growths in this game are high, but... wow.

Okay, my only complaint now is his lack of Cavalier as an option.

Weapon Saver seems a bit wasted on a unit who can't use any high rank weapons; but it will increase the longevity of a forge.

Or a Glass Sword.

Edited May 20, 2012 by Othin

[No. 3]

Japanese players consider him top tier. I have no idea because I hate his design/pot helmet/the way he speaks and I never use him.

[Othin]

He's certainly not good by any meaningful standard. In fact, I'd still say he's terrible. But he is usable, and he has his own appeal.

[Espinosa]

I bet if Lilina and Amelia had an innate skill that upped their hit/avo by 15% when facing a higher-level enemy, people would have less problems with them, too.

[Strawman]

I kind of just wish villager had 2nd tier caps instead of 1st tier caps.

[Momo]

I don't think Lilina really had hit problems. Sophia, maybe.

[Othin]

I bet if Lilina and Amelia had an innate skill that upped their hit/avo by 15% when facing a higher-level enemy, people would have less problems with them, too.

That wouldn't come close to addressing their real issues of not killing anything and dying to everything.

I kind of just wish villager had 2nd tier caps instead of 1st tier caps.

It doesn't even have Tier 1 caps. It has Tier 1 GBA caps, when the actual Tier 1 classes have Tier 2 GBA caps. So in FE13, it really has Tier 0 caps.

[dondon151]

Japanese players consider him top tier. I have no idea because I hate his design/pot helmet/the way he speaks and I never use him.

japanese players (most of them) are stuck in 2008

[Westbrick]

I highly doubt it's a joke. No doubt it's difficult for an enlightened veteran like you to wrap your head around this, but many players do like growth characters. And I would like to know how you know that his growths are average.

Haha, relax. It was a lighthearted comment. You're free to use Donny in FE13 just like you're free to use Wendy in FE6.

...although those growths Othin posted are sick. I leveled him up to 15 on my Normal playthrough, and had nowhere near the average stats I should have based on those growths. So maybe Donny is a true Est after all, and not a Sophia. Time will tell.

[dondon151]

So maybe Donny is a true Est after all, and not a Sophia. Time will tell.

maybe if he had pegasus knight as a reclass option

but noooo fuck IS

[Othin]

Haha, relax. It was a lighthearted comment. You're free to use Donny in FE13 just like you're free to use Wendy in FE6.

...although those growths Othin posted are sick. I leveled him up to 15 on my Normal playthrough, and had nowhere near the average stats I should have based on those growths. So maybe Donny is a true Est after all, and not a Sophia. Time will tell.

Hmm.

Base stats (Hero)

HP 22

Str 11

Mag 1

Skl 12

Spd 12

Luck 11

Def 10

Res 3

9 Villager

+9.45

+6.75

+3.15

+5.85

+6.3

+9

+4.5

+3.6

9 Mercenary / 1 Hero

+11.5

+8.5

+3.5

+8.5

+8.5

+10

+5

+4

Total (10/10/2) (actual)

HP 42.95 (41)

Str 26.25 (26)

Mag 7.65 (5)

Skl 26.35 (27)

Spd 26.8 (27)

Luck 30 (30)

Def 19.5 (23)

Res 10.6 (9)

I don't know how they calculated those growths, but the projected results seem completely accurate with what I actually got with Donny on my file. So I'd say they're correct, as insane as they look.

But no, he can't really be considered an Est with how early he can join.

[Trickster]

I'm mainly mad at donny for having reclassing options of Fighter and Merc. two classes that both promote to Hero and none that can use lances that's just awful. Before we knew anything about his class options he could have been a Halberdier with Impale.

[AstraSage]

maybe if he had pegasus knight as a reclass option

but noooo fuck IS

Well, technically it seems any daughter of his can become a Peg. Knight in exchange of his Villager class...

Speaking of which, something I've come to take note about Donny: he might've gotten gimped with his class set (he should've gotten Cavalier or Knight instead of Fighter), but any child of his can become almost top-tier because he gives them access to Weapon Saver and maximies the cap for the Luck that skill relies on. Noire is the only one of his possible children who doesn't get a >96% of triggering Weapon Saver once said Luck cap is reached.

[Rewjeo]

Mind you, once you get your stats that high, you can probably just use crappy weapons to kill everything anyways...

[Othin]

Let's keep in mind that with All Stats +2 and a Luck Potion, a character with a modifier of just +1 can get their Luck all the way up to 50. 150 gold per map to get unlimited use of powerful weapons is a very reasonable price. Luck Cry and/or Rainbow Cry can also help even more, although Luck Cry is worthless otherwise and generally not good to bother with unless you have other Cries coupled with it.

In the higher-level DLC maps, you can have capped stats and still have trouble fighting with your best weapons, so Weapon Saver really does become valuable there. But you don't need to make modifiers a big concern in order to do so.

[Anouleth]

You don't really need more than 96% chance of Weapon Saver. Taking a rare weapon like the Tyrfing, 92% Weapon Saver gives on average, 312 uses. That is more than enough to cover the entire game.

[Othin]

You don't really need more than 96% chance of Weapon Saver. Taking a rare weapon like the Tyrfing, 92% Weapon Saver gives on average, 312 uses. That is more than enough to cover the entire game.

Depends on how you define "cover" and how you define "the entire game".

Also, not all weapons last quite that long. Inverse's Darkness is without a doubt the best weapon in the game, and it has only 10 uses. You can get more rarely and at random, but those won't retain any pricey forges you add to it, and Hammerne staffs as well are very rare.

[arvilino]

You don't really need more than 96% chance of Weapon Saver. Taking a rare weapon like the Tyrfing, 92% Weapon Saver gives on average, 312 uses. That is more than enough to cover the entire game.

That'd only be if you had a character with Weapon Saver, A-rank Swords and 46 luck though. Which you'd have at close to end game even with Donny. There will be situations early game in the harder difficulties where you'll want to use them(since you can get them from the end of chapter 4 onwards) earlier than that, that you'll want a character with 50+ luck and weapon saver to use them without risk of breaking at end-game or for the harder DLC chapters.

Edited May 20, 2012 by arvilino

[Espinosa]

Being informed about the rare unique items on the ground makes me wonder how many more newfangled variables are going to come into play when this forum's users all get the game and start competing for efficiency as usual. You have random broken equipment and weapon level bonuses on the floor (I can only imagine how rigging or resetting for weapon level increases in a weapon type you only start with an E in can affect the complexities of gameplay), DLC, fame items, change proof maneuvering and all those other fresh things affecting efficiency of performance that it simply boggles my mind.

[Westbrick]

Being informed about the rare unique items on the ground makes me wonder how many more newfangled variables are going to come into play when this forum's users all get the game and start competing for efficiency as usual. You have random broken equipment and weapon level bonuses on the floor (I can only imagine how rigging or resetting for weapon level increases in a weapon type you only start with an E in can affect the complexities of gameplay), DLC, fame items, change proof maneuvering and all those other fresh things affecting efficiency of performance that it simply boggles my mind.

Very true. It gets even more confusing when you ask yourself questions like "Do I include Gaiden chapters?" or "Do I recruit any of the children characters?"

[Othin]

There would be a lot to rig in an "anything goes" run. For example, Sigurd is a LV20 Paladin with ridiculous stats: beating his team to get him to join takes a postgame team, but hiring him is just 17k gold, and either way gets him a spot on your team for as long as you want. Not cheap, but it shouldn't take too long to get that much cash if you focus on it.

The DLC characters also sell whatever items their team uses. Their stock only contains one of each weapon, and once you leave their shop after buying anything, they disappear, but you can summon them again anytime you want at no cost, and they'll have a full inventory. So you can use that to buy unlimited Brave Lances, Tomahawks, Slime spells, etc., as early as you want. The items are expensive, but not prohibitively so.

Then there's where it gets really ugly: time-based events. You can just wait a while for merchants to appear, sometimes selling items you want like Master Seals and Change Seals. Other skirmishes and merchants disappear over time to make room. Meanwhile, Everyone's Room also updates periodically with the same benefits as the sparkly tiles, and there's no penalty to waiting to get more items, more Exp, more WExp, and more Bond points. A competitive run with free Everyone's Room access would just wind up taking forever to abuse obscene gains from it: I don't think anyone wants that, so it would probably be easiest to just ban the room from any such runs.

The shops and characters don't have quite the same potential to go infinite for free because of the gold cost, but they could still be seriously abused, so there are questions about how to address that. Of course, if DLC use is counted, that lets you spend a few turns to get all the cash you'd probably ever need to hire allies and load up on enough Brave weapons to last through the story mode. For a standard run, it may be easiest to constrain world map activity to buying from the shop of the chapter you just completed before moving on to the next finite map, whether a story chapter or a sidequest.

Edited May 20, 2012 by Othin