[FE13] Who's up for a draft?

[Othin]

As I said, not perfect. What you're really ignoring here is the gap. Nosferatu users can't do nearly as much as Seth, you're right. However, because of the otherwise much tougher enemies, the rest of FE13's cast also can't do nearly as much as the rest of FE8' cast. So perhaps the way I should put it is that the gap between Seth and the rest of FE8 is akin to the gap between an FE13 character with Nosferatu and the rest of FE13.

What you ignore is the link between defense and offense. Because a Nosferatu user can survive a charge into enemies (while obliterating them), they can move faster than other characters. If you can show me a way to keep non-Nosferatu users alive around FE13's terrifying enemies while moving that fast or faster, be my guest, and perhaps such a day will come. In the meantime, though, I'm sticking with what I've seen as possible.

Edited May 26, 2012 by Othin

[PKL]

Agreed with cam. Although i personally think 1 draft isnt enough data to determine if something is OP and needs to be banned.

[Westbrick]

So Othin, since you're more experienced with this, how many turns should each children/Gaiden chapter get free? That's the last piece of the puzzle.

[Othin]

So Othin, since you're more experienced with this, how many turns should each children/Gaiden chapter get free? That's the last piece of the puzzle.

You've completed the game four times. I'm at the end of my second playthrough. You tell me.

That said, I think a universal 5 should be enough, raised to 8 or 10 for Selena's map. Not sure what the actual limit is for the fastest she can talk to Holland.

[CT075]

I'm inclined to agree with Anou here, no matter how broken something is in casual/casual!efficient play things change in a draft/ltc runthrough. I think a better example (although still not perfect) would be Levin!Arthur. You'd think that having a horse-mounted unit with Holsety (for you non-FE4 people, that's 30 mt and +20 SPD/+10 something else I think skill) by what amounts to the second chapter of the game (second chapter of the second generation but whatever) would be stupidly broken but it turns out that Leaf and the dancers do a much better job.

Not to mention that while there's only one arthur you can have nosferatu on every team.

besides i don't see the point of being overly cautious for the first draft- let's prove it's broken before we fix it

Edited May 26, 2012 by Camtech

[Othin]

besides i don't see the point of being overly cautious for the first draft- let's prove it's broken before we fix it

Because I've spammed Nosferatu for two playthroughs already and I'm interested in trying something else.

Look, I have been moving expediently. I've been playing casually, but I've been avoiding taking longer than necessary, and on HM, moving faster tends to be a good idea anyway to keep reinforcements from causing problems. And in the process of all that, I've found that using Nosferatu more tends to be key to moving more quickly. Other characters have to hold back because they'd get killed if they tried to move as fast as they could in other games. Sorcerers don't.

[CT075]

then wouldn't it be smart for each player to make sure they get someone who can use it?

[Westbrick]

then wouldn't it be smart for each player to make sure they get someone who can use it?

It would be smarter to ban an overcentralizing mechanic.

5 seems reasonable for most (8 for Selena, although IIRC she can get to the Villager by 7; I'll have to check on that). Naturally, not all Gaidens can be completed in that timeframe, but then that's simply a tradeoff most players will have to make. I'll add that to the rules.

[PKL]

Well, like cam said, every drafter will make sure to get a nosferatu user if its really that awesome. And if it is truly as important as you guys say to move faster, then why do you want it banned? I used to think the only way to do chapter 18 of FE12 in drafts was to have nosferatu MU be warped in to kill all the generals, then in a later draft I proved myself wrong and I did it with paladin spam instead.

[CT075]

Hm. I see your point, although this is beginning to make me believe that [having the ability to be] using Nosferatu is similar to having a horse in older games but I'll bow to your experience here.

[Westbrick]

Hm. I see your point, although this is beginning to make me believe that [having the ability to be] using Nosferatu is similar to having a horse in older games but I'll bow to your experience here.

Hey, I'm perfectly willing to admit that Othin and I may be acting overly conservative here. But when you get a chance to play Awakening firsthand, you'll see the kind of impact it makes in terms of both offense and defense. Scary stuff.

Now then, all we need is three more volunteers!

[Othin]

And if it is truly as important as you guys say to move faster, then why do you want it banned?

Personally, I like the extra resistance FE13 puts up in terms of enemy strength. And for me regarding this, that's really what it comes down to.

Again, it's not like playing FE13 with heavy Nosferatu use is bad. In fact, it seems to me that it would look a lot like the sort of stuff that's possible in the rest of the FE series. But personally, I like FE13 more than those other games, and I like it more mainly because of its unique traits and strategies, which Nosferatu spam takes away from.

And no, this isn't very objective. It's not meant to apply to everyone. I'm sure there will eventually be plenty of FE13 drafts with free Nosferatu use, maybe most FE13 drafts will be like that, and that's okay. But I don't think I'd find those quite as interesting, and I don't think I'm the only one.

[Anouleth]

As I said, not perfect. What you're really ignoring here is the gap. Nosferatu users can't do nearly as much as Seth, you're right. However, because of the otherwise much tougher enemies, the rest of FE13's cast also can't do nearly as much as the rest of FE8' cast. So perhaps the way I should put it is that the gap between Seth and the rest of FE8 is akin to the gap between an FE13 character with Nosferatu and the rest of FE13.

What you ignore is the link between defense and offense. Because a Nosferatu user can survive a charge into enemies (while obliterating them), they can move faster than other characters. If you can show me a way to keep non-Nosferatu users alive around FE13's terrifying enemies while moving that fast or faster, be my guest, and perhaps such a day will come. In the meantime, though, I'm sticking with what I've seen as possible.

You say that FE13 enemies are terrifying, but if Sariya wielding nosferatu (which isn't a particularly strong spell) can 1-round them reliably, then I don't believe that.

And there's all the other Dark Mages too, who might not be as fast or as strong or accurate as Sariya.

Edited May 26, 2012 by Anouleth

[dondon151]

Donny, last I recall, Haar's been banned in some FE10 drafts. So not the best analogy? Perhaps this is just a matter of us considering FE13 without Nosferatu just more interesting that FE13 with Nosferatu.

1. don't call me "donny," i find that particularly condescending

2. i recall that there was a "should haar be unbanned?" draft, so clearly he's not as centralizing as many players view it, and i don't think he's nearly as broken as marcia or jill in FE9 drafts

You're also not considering all the options with Double. Let's say I have Saria as a Sorcerer with Nosferatu and Serge as a Griffin Knight with Carrier. I have Saria jump on Serge, Serge flies 10 squares and swaps Saria in front, landing in the middle of a crowd of enemies, which Saria proceeds to disintegrate. If the way is clear, Saria can then swap Serge in front the next turn after moving 7 squares due to her slight Move boost, to then move 10 squares the next turn. It's really not comparable to rescue-dropping at all.

i find it rather hard to believe that serge would have much trouble surviving on her own given the ridiculous stat bonuses that double conveys in the first place if enemies on HM are weak enough such that sariya is doubling and ORKOing all of them without so much as sustaining a net scratch in the process

Lightning Speed can work the same way. Tiamo flies 8 squares, kills something, flies another 8 squares, swaps Saria in front. Of course, Lightning Speed takes a while to get in the first place, requiring attaining LV15 in a promoted class. In any case, though, the "placing a Sorcerer in front" is key because otherwise, the flier is going to die. Enemies are vicious in this game: you can't just have fliers go in and blast everything to bits like you could with Thany or Haar, not unless you've done a lot of grinding that obviously would not be part of a run like this. The flier needs to use the Sorcerer as a shield, something only possible with Double.

i'm willing to bet you that someone is going to figure out that stacking a couple of carrier griffon knights, for example, is going to be far more broken than doubling a griffon knight with a nosferatu sorceror

but let's ignore that for a second: what's the point in doubling a griffon knight with a sorceror if it doesn't achieve the primary objective, i.e. getting krom closer to a seize tile?

[Othin]

1. don't call me "donny," i find that particularly condescending

You're no fun.

2. i recall that there was a "should haar be unbanned?" draft, so clearly he's not as centralizing as many players view it, and i don't think he's nearly as broken as marcia or jill in FE9 drafts

Regardless, there seems to be plenty of controversy.

i find it rather hard to believe that serge would have much trouble surviving on her own given the ridiculous stat bonuses that double conveys in the first place if enemies on HM are weak enough such that sariya is doubling and ORKOing all of them without so much as sustaining a net scratch in the process

Enemy phase healing helps with a lot with avoiding net damage. Just means doing twice as much damage as she takes, which she can do by doing equal damage per hit and doubling. That's if all attacks hit, and it should be no surprise that enemy attacks tend to miss a bit more often.

A basic forged Silver Bow has 51 Mt against a flier, and those are a common weapon for enemies for the last third of HM. I don't think Serge is going to fare well against those, especially with axes having limited 1-2 range.

i'm willing to bet you that someone is going to figure out that stacking a couple of carrier griffon knights, for example, is going to be far more broken than doubling a griffon knight with a nosferatu sorceror

but let's ignore that for a second: what's the point in doubling a griffon knight with a sorceror if it doesn't achieve the primary objective, i.e. getting krom closer to a seize tile?

A Carrier Griffin Knight carrying another Griffin Knight has 11 Move and can't use it because they'll die to bows if they rush out ahead of the team. Fliers tend to push ahead by flying up and swapping a non-flier in front because they're less likely to die. There's no way to negate bows' effective bonus against fliers in this game, so they're going to hurt.

All FE13 objectives are either Rout or Defeat Boss, so killing things and getting a good fighter to move through the map are always the primary objectives.

Edited May 26, 2012 by Othin

[CT075]

inb4 "should nosferatu be [un]banned draft"

Edited May 26, 2012 by Camtech

[Anouleth]

Enemy phase healing helps with a lot with avoiding net damage. Just means doing twice as much damage as she takes, which she can do by doing equal damage per hit and doubling. That's if all attacks hit, and it should be no surprise that enemy attacks tend to miss a bit more often.

You of all people should consider reliability to be a must. Enemies missing a "bit" more often is not really good enough, if Sariya is dependent on always hitting in order to stay alive. I'm also led to believe that Sariya has pretty bad luck...

[Othin]

You of all people should consider reliability to be a must. Enemies missing a "bit" more often is not really good enough, if Sariya is dependent on always hitting in order to stay alive. I'm also led to believe that Sariya has pretty bad luck...

Have enemy hit rates ever been just a literal bit lower than ally hit rates? And of course, doing the same damage as the enemy is a minimum, but it should come as no surprise that the damage comparisons tend to be more favorable than that minimum.

Then there's the matter of the skills the Sorcerer class has. Vengeance can easily get an activation rate above 50%, and it increases damage based on the amount of HP that's been lost, so if a Sorcerer falls behind, they can catch up with that. The Tome Slayer skill also acts to weigh the odds against magic enemies with its massive Hit/Avo boost against them. Hard to miss when you have +50 Hit.

[CT075]

well considering that a literal bit can mean anything from 1 to 128 (more depending on how big the registers/memory allocation is as well as signed but i don't want to talk about it meaning 1 as opposed to making it negative) that's not saying much

[Othin]

well considering that a literal bit can mean anything from 1 to 128 (more depending on how big the registers/memory allocation is as well as signed but i don't want to talk about it meaning 1 as opposed to making it negative) that's not saying much

Byte me.

[Anouleth]

Then there's the matter of the skills the Sorcerer class has. Vengeance can easily get an activation rate above 50%, and it increases damage based on the amount of HP that's been lost, so if a Sorcerer falls behind, they can catch up with that. The Tome Slayer skill also acts to weigh the odds against magic enemies with its massive Hit/Avo boost against them. Hard to miss when you have +50 Hit.

Well, since Seth's 1% chance of dying to Gheb is apparently unacceptably bad, I don't think that 1% over the course of many protracted enemy phases is too unlikely especially since it seems that many bosses also have crit on Sariya.

[Othin]

Well, since Seth's 1% chance of dying to Gheb is apparently unacceptably bad, I don't think that 1% over the course of many protracted enemy phases is too unlikely especially since it seems that many bosses also have crit on Sariya.

Can we focus on the present, please? My arguments do not come with a warranty that I will stand by them months later.

What I will say is that I've used Saria as my main frontline unit for much of my NM and HM files and I don't remember her ever dying unless an enemy with Counter was involved. I should also mention that I cannot say the same for other frontline units I've used.

Also, using Saria as a boss killer doesn't have to be necessary once she's done the longer and more difficult task of clearing out the rest of the enemies, and she's not the only possible Dark Mage anyway.

Edited May 26, 2012 by Othin

[Anouleth]

Can we focus on the present, please? My arguments do not come with a warranty that I will stand by them months later.

What I will say is that I've used Saria as my main frontline unit for much of my NM and HM files and I don't remember her ever dying unless an enemy with Counter was involved. I should also mention that I cannot say the same for other frontline units I've used.

Also, using Saria as a boss killer doesn't have to be necessary once she's done the longer and more difficult task of clearing out the rest of the enemies, and she's not the only possible Dark Mage anyway.

Which brings up the interesting point of whether other Dark Mages can do all this stuff too. Unless enemies are so weak that Henry doubles everything too. Is it really necessary to apply this restriction to all Dark Mages? I mean I could see it applying to MU, Miriel, Sariya, and maybe Tiki. But Tiamo and Henry?

Edited May 26, 2012 by Anouleth

[Othin]

Which brings up the interesting point of whether other Dark Mages can do all this stuff too. Unless enemies are so weak that Henry doubles everything too. Is it really necessary to apply this restriction to all Dark Mages? I mean I could see it applying to MU, Miriel, Sariya, and maybe Tiki. But Tiamo and Henry?

MU should do about as well as Saria, and Miriel shouldn't be too far off, either. Both could also become Dark Mages by the time Saria joins, although they would have a harder time becoming Sorcerers by that point like she can at base level.

I don't know about Tiamo, but she would probably have more troubles due to her lack of innate magic focus and therefore having to start from scratch with Tomes. Tiki doesn't have Dark Mage as an option at all, just regular Mage. What I can say is that Henry is most certainly not capable of that sort of destruction. He's way too slow. I have him at endgame on my HM file as a 12/14 Sorcerer with 13 Spd. A random enemy Great Knight has 20 Spd. An enemy Falcoknight has 34 Spd.

Granted, he's screwed in Spd by about 4 points, and he fell behind a bit because of being terrible. So let's say he was keeping pace a bit better and was 12/20 instead, and was at his average Spd at that level, which is like 21. He'd still have enough trouble avoiding getting doubled, let alone actually doubling anything other than the slowest enemies. For comparison, Saria is a 10/20/8 Sorcerer (might be a bit higher, she might have gained a level or two before promoting) with 33 Spd. With Ronku backing her up for +10 Spd, she just barely manages to double the fastest enemy on the map, a Swordmaster with 38 Spd. Although looking over things, that's 20 points gained in 26+ levels with a 60% growth... that's a bit on the high end. Hmm.

So no, Nosferatu is not broken on everything. But what is it broken on? Those are the Gen 1 units that can become Dark Mages, yeah. What about Mark? Does it depend on his/her starting class? What about Selena, or Loran, or Noire? If Brady happened to pick up Dark Mage as a reclass option from his father, would he be broken with it? I just don't think this is the sort of thing we can easily address on a character-by-character basis.

Edited May 26, 2012 by Othin

[CT075]

Well, you could always try "only unit x may use nosferatu" but that's just silly

At this rate I think banning it probably is better until people get a feel for it (and then do one with it allowed to see the differences in turncount)