[FE13] Who's up for a draft?

[Hawk King]

If the drafting goes like FE4's does, everyone will have 2 mommies drafted + free mommies. That means everyone will have the same amount of possible kids/ gaiden chapters.

How about a rule like "You may only go to gaiden chapters for your children; undrafted children's gaiden chapters are banned"?

This way they wouldn't even need to be free. If certain gaidens take longer to beat than others, that would just be a part of the drafting strategy. It would also make SOYO drafts more interesting.

[Westbrick]

Making supports gives children, and the possibility of Exp and items from the sidequests. Those are entirely ingame conditions, and I have not proposed anything that would add any other incentive.

Making supports gives children, yes, which may or may not prove useful for a drafter (i.e. I can draft Miriel only to user her, not her kid). That's a world apart from "go visit all Gaidens and try to recruit as many women as possible for free experience."

where are you pulling this from

Somehow, your statements have become completely detached from reality, and you've found yourself arguing complete nonsense. I'm not sure what reasoning you have in mind for your statements, but I know there isn't the slightest bit of truth to it. Take a step back and explain exactly your reasoning for how you got to where you are so I can help you figure out where you got so mixed up.

This aggression isn't at all like you, Othin. Relax.

Your proposal makes going to all Gaiden and children chapters free for a certain number of turns, correct? This means that each and every optional chapter provides 100% free experience and support growth. Presumably, everyone will go to all Gaiden chapters under your proposal, but the person who drafts the most mothers gets to have the most free experience. Having a max turn cap, like I'm proposing, would limit that.

Is that clear?

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If the drafting goes like FE4's does, everyone will have 2 mommies drafted + free mommies. That means everyone will have the same amount of possible kids/ gaiden chapters.

How about a rule like "You may only go to gaiden chapters for your children; undrafted children's gaiden chapters are banned"?

This way they wouldn't even need to be free. If certain gaidens take longer to beat than others, that would just be a part of the drafting strategy. It would also make SOYO drafts more interesting.

This has appeal in theory, but I fear it will end up being unbalanced in practice. Some children chapters, after all, are chock full of enemy units and reinforcements, and can provide a player with dozens of turns of free experience; others, by contrast, are quick and easy. And either way, not having a turn limit means encouraging staff abuse, support abuse. etc.

[Hawk King]

Did you miss the part where I said "they wouldn't even need to be free"?

And if they are free there would still be a turn limit for each map. 5, 8, 10? Idk, i havent played FE13 but it shouldn't be as complicated as youre making it out to be.

[Paperblade]

I have similar thoughts on Titania, she joins in earlygame and isnt required to beat the game either. She also doesnt have to seize or do other lordly duties and her death isnt even a game over. See how poor your reasoning for no free lucina is? I can easily name a lot of free characters that are not lords or are required to beat the game yet they are still free for the purpose of balancing the draft/evening the unit count. Also, i think its too early to start banning stuff like nosferatu just because some people who played the game think its broken. For all we know, nosferatu might just be overhyped and will die down as new/other strats are explored.

Stop being dense. Contrary to popular belief, the only thing intentionally misrepresenting arguments does is make you look like a tool.

Edited May 26, 2012 by Paperblade

[dondon151]

Was Nosferatu available to buy for cheap whenever you wanted in FE6 and FE12?

nosferatu was unlimited in chapter 14 of FE6 and buyable at the silver card price of 1500G, but you don't see ray or niime being super awesome in drafts for their combat prowess

it also doesn't make a difference that nosferatu isn't buyable in FE12 because non-magic classes are simply better. also recall that linde joines in chapter 3 with both aura and nosferatu, but she's by no means a top-tier draftee. the benefit of being able to tank through a horde of enemies is horrendously overstated, and it's been proven time and time again to not be secondary to other positive traits such as flying and movement.

FE11 also has invincible general sedgar/wolf and look at how shitty they are

Henry doesn't stand out too much with it because of his low Spd, but Saria, MU, and anyone else that becomes a Dark Mage with good enough Mag/Spd/Def can devour entire fields of enemies due to the enemy phase healing. You can't get that kind of destruction any other way in this game, especially because it's one of the few ways to get good, renewable 1-2 range on a unit that can survive repeated attacks.

how is that any worse than, like, haar?

Movement also isn't such an issue because of Double making them able to keep pace with your move mobile units.

yes, but it only allows them to keep pace (unless the SF page on double is missing information). if you double up a sorceror and a griffon knight, the griffon knight has to be the carrier in order to utilize any movement and terrain advantages. obviously you can drop the sorceror whenever, but you could have done that in any game that featured rescue (well, ok, just FE6, but rescue-dropping ray in FE6 is a pretty weak strategy).

i highly suspect that nosferatu sorcerors will pale in comparison to carrier griffon knights and lightning speed dark pegasi.

Edited May 26, 2012 by dondon151

[Anouleth]

As strong as Nosferatu is, I somehow doubt it's more overpowered than say... Holsety in FE4, which only necessitates a ban for Levin!Arthur who joins straight away and has a mount. It's not even like there are only one or two Dark Mages in the game, there are about half a dozen. So it's not like one player will always have to "go without" and be at an automatic disadvantage. In fact, the same should apply to most of the other "free" characters.

[Othin]

Donny, last I recall, Haar's been banned in some FE10 drafts. So not the best analogy? Perhaps this is just a matter of us considering FE13 without Nosferatu just more interesting that FE13 with Nosferatu.

You're also not considering all the options with Double. Let's say I have Saria as a Sorcerer with Nosferatu and Serge as a Griffin Knight with Carrier. I have Saria jump on Serge, Serge flies 10 squares and swaps Saria in front, landing in the middle of a crowd of enemies, which Saria proceeds to disintegrate. If the way is clear, Saria can then swap Serge in front the next turn after moving 7 squares due to her slight Move boost, to then move 10 squares the next turn. It's really not comparable to rescue-dropping at all.

Lightning Speed can work the same way. Tiamo flies 8 squares, kills something, flies another 8 squares, swaps Saria in front. Of course, Lightning Speed takes a while to get in the first place, requiring attaining LV15 in a promoted class. In any case, though, the "placing a Sorcerer in front" is key because otherwise, the flier is going to die. Enemies are vicious in this game: you can't just have fliers go in and blast everything to bits like you could with Thany or Haar, not unless you've done a lot of grinding that obviously would not be part of a run like this. The flier needs to use the Sorcerer as a shield, something only possible with Double.

Banning Nosferatu from all drafts might not be necessary, but it would eliminate the high threat level of the enemies that I think helps to make FE13 much more exciting than most of its predecessors. So maybe it's really just that we think an FE13 draft without Nosferatu would be more interesting than one with it. Only one way to find out for sure, though.

Making supports gives children, yes, which may or may not prove useful for a drafter (i.e. I can draft Miriel only to user her, not her kid). That's a world apart from "go visit all Gaidens and try to recruit as many women as possible for free experience."

This aggression isn't at all like you, Othin. Relax.

Your proposal makes going to all Gaiden and children chapters free for a certain number of turns, correct? This means that each and every optional chapter provides 100% free experience and support growth. Presumably, everyone will go to all Gaiden chapters under your proposal, but the person who drafts the most mothers gets to have the most free experience. Having a max turn cap, like I'm proposing, would limit that.

Is that clear?

Making supports also gives items and Exp from the chapters. That is part of the ingame reward for making supports. Where is the problem?

The game gives you items and Exp for each mother you use. That is part of what you get out of using them. Why should we limit that? To get people to not draft mothers for a legitimate advantage of using them? If the mothers become so important, they'll just get drafted first, and we just arrange it so that each player could get the same number. Or we draft the mothers separately with that arrangement so each player definitely gets the same number.

Edited May 26, 2012 by Othin

[CT075]

if it actually ends up being a problem (and i honestly doubt that it will be) then just remember that this is the FIRST draft and that rules can still be ironed out

not to mention that the op is completely misrepresenting a problem.

some sincere advice: please try to play at least one draft before you try to figure out what does and doesn't constitute as a problem in one ;\

EDIT:

nice thing about drafts - new strategies open up and the entire metagame will change as these strategies are explored. case in point: fe4, for the first like half of the drafts the MO was to get Holsety!Arthur or Fury. Nowadays it revolves more around Aideen, Ethlin and Sylvia (and I think Lachesis, who was like a second-to-last or last turn pick).

Edited May 26, 2012 by Camtech

[Ciarre]

I have similar thoughts on Titania, she joins in earlygame and isnt required to beat the game either. She also doesnt have to seize or do other lordly duties and her death isnt even a game over. See how poor your reasoning for no free lucina is? I can easily name a lot of free characters that are not lords or are required to beat the game yet they are still free for the purpose of balancing the draft/evening the unit count. Also, i think its too early to start banning stuff like nosferatu just because some people who played the game think its broken. For all we know, nosferatu might just be overhyped and will die down as new/other strats are explored.

I see the point for Lucina being free, because of her weapon, but having Titania draftable breaks the game. Lucina, not so much.

[Westbrick]

Making supports also gives items and Exp from the chapters. That is part of the ingame reward for making supports. Where is the problem?

The game gives you items and Exp for each mother you use. That is part of what you get out of using them. Why should we limit that? To get people to not draft mothers for a legitimate advantage of using them? If the mothers become so important, they'll just get drafted first, and we just arrange it so that each player could get the same number. Or we draft the mothers separately with that arrangement so each player definitely gets the same number.

There isn't a "problem" here, as if your proposal is terrible and mine is super-excellent. If that's how I'm coming across, then I apologize. It's just that adopting some particular ruleset is going to define the feel and strategy of the draft, and I just had some concerns about your proposal. That's all.

Look, I'm not particularly picky. I was simply offering up the ruleset I felt was best, and if others who'd like to participate disagree, I'm more than willing to change the rules. At this point, I'd simply prefer if people would sign up. So for now, we have two proposals, and people are free to vote on which they'd prefer:

#1. There is a cap on the total number of turns that can be spent on all Gaidens/children chapters (~20-30). Discourages going to all such maps; makes children units less important.

#2. Each Gaiden/children map comes with a set number of turns to make it "free" (~5-10). Encourages going to all such maps; makes children units more important.

Vote away.

---

not to mention that the op is completely misrepresenting a problem.

some sincere advice: please try to play at least one draft before you try to figure out what does and doesn't constitute as a problem in one ;\

Thanks!

(Jesus. Getting used to this ever-present condescension is going to take some time.)

Edited May 26, 2012 by Westbrick

[CT075]

don't worry the feeling is mutual

[Westbrick]

Except I'm not being condescending? Like at all? But okay, maybe what I've said compares to being called "out of touch with reality," right?

[CT075]

there are very few people i find more condescending than those who call out others for being condescending

[Westbrick]

That's fair. I was just trying to defend myself, but I think we can both agree that it's not worth dwelling over. Back to the draft?

[Hawk King]

Cam has a point. You've never been in a draft before (at least not that im aware of). Maybe you should let more seasoned draft players come up with rules. Ever see a FE11 draft? Gaidens are usually free up to 20 turns EACH. I've never seen anyone complaining about that being a problem...

Your fears of drafters going out of their way to grind on every gaiden seems silly, and it is extremely easy to prevent it anyways.

[CT075]

As I stated before, there's nothing wrong if the rules are (in anyone's view) a bit unbalanced for the test run. Once this is finished and everyone has their turncounts in, then we'll see if there really needs to be a change

(to that end I would personally leave nosferatu unbanned until it's super obvious that the team that has it is doing so stupidly well that nobody can catch up but i haven't played too much of fe13 so i can't speak for how broken it really is)

[CT075]

laaaag

Edited May 26, 2012 by Camtech

[Westbrick]

I agree that he does have a point, but I'd rather him point to specific examples rather than just speaking in generalities like "Let the expert handle it" and "You don't know what you're talking about" etc. If a similar system has been put in place in FE11 drafts with good results, then that might be a good reason to vote for the second option.

(to that end I would personally leave nosferatu unbanned until it's super obvious that the team that has it is doing so stupidly well that nobody can catch up but i haven't played too much of fe13 so i can't speak for how broken it really is)

It's... crazy broken, yeah. While it may or may not deserve that ban, I can say I'm fairly well-experienced in Awakening, and the default position for a first draft should most definitely lean towards not having it around.

And the more I think about it, the more I feel Othin's proposal should work fine. The question now becomes how many turns per chapter.

Edited May 26, 2012 by Westbrick

[Othin]

Nosferatu to FE13 = Seth to FE8

Not a perfect comparison, but yeah. The thing is, it's not so much character-based, because MU can become a Dark Mage and use it on anyone's team. While there could be merit and interest in drafting FE13 with Nosferatu, it's a very different matter from drafting FE13 without Nosferatu, and it's really just a matter of which version we want to try this time.

Edited May 26, 2012 by Othin

[Ciarre]

Couldn't you just say that you can't buy more Nosferatus? It wasn't broken in other games because it wasn't buyable, so why not just ban buying them?

Edited May 26, 2012 by CR-S01

[Hawk King]

Kinda like innocent until proven guilty, Nosferatu should be allowed until proven broken.

Haar was banned after people realized he was broken. There is only 1 Haar. There are multiple Nosferatu users, Everyone can have a Nosferatu user since MU can change to any class. I really dont see how anyone can have an unfair advantage with Nosferatu being used. And if it is broken, PROVE IT before you ban it. It makes no sense to insta-ban Nosferatu because then there will need to be an experimental draft to find out if it actually should have been banned to begin with.

[Othin]

Couldn't you just say that you can't buy more Nosferatus? It wasn't broken in other games because it wasn't buyable, so why not just ban buying them?

I did suggest that, but that's not the whole story. Lack of Wt means its users can stay able to double, and its users tend to be very bulky. What may be even more significant is the buffs you can give characters: normally quite fair, but when they let you patch up the few holes in a Nosferatu user's path to immortality, it gets very ridiculous. So that might or might not be enough.

[Westbrick]

Kinda like innocent until proven guilty, Nosferatu should be allowed until proven broken.

Haar was banned after people realized he was broken. There is only 1 Haar. There are multiple Nosferatu users, Everyone can have a Nosferatu user since MU can change to any class. I really dont see how anyone can have an unfair advantage with Nosferatu being used. And if it is broken, PROVE IT before you ban it. It makes no sense to insta-ban Nosferatu because then there will need to be an experimental draft to find out if it actually should have been banned to begin with.

All of the evidence (as well as anecdotal evidence from me and Othin, who've played the game) points to it being more likely broken than not. This isn't the American criminal justice system; nothing wrong with having the default position err on the side of caution.

Although yeah, we can simply ban buying Nosferatu. That should be fine.

[Othin]

Although yeah, we can simply ban buying Nosferatu. That should be fine.

Now that you mention it, that makes the perfect thing to test. We've seen the effect of unlimited Nosferatu use, and we know that whatever is the case, it's not what we want here. So now we can see if limiting it to just the few tomes you pick up in game progress does enough to change that, and either way, we should find out what we want for future drafts.

[Anouleth]

Nosferatu to FE13 = Seth to FE8

So Sariya is not only capable of soloing the entire game, but she can do so at max movement? Seth is literally in the position where aside from a handful of bosses, he kills every enemy in one round of combat and never dies.

In fact, I would recommend that if a unit who has these starting stats:

26HP 4STR 12MAG 5SKL 13SPD 3LUK 10DEF 7RES

is capable of 1-rounding every enemy and never dying on HM, you draft on Lunatic instead. Maybe even Lunatic+, because enemies must have pathetic stats.

Not a perfect comparison, but yeah. The thing is, it's not so much character-based, because MU can become a Dark Mage and use it on anyone's team. While there could be merit and interest in drafting FE13 with Nosferatu, it's a very different matter from drafting FE13 without Nosferatu, and it's really just a matter of which version we want to try this time.

Forgive me if I don't immediately believe you, because I remember the halcyon days of FE8 where Lute was apparently a goddess, and FE10 where Soren was apparently a god, and FE11 where Wolf and Sedgar were apparently gods, only for people to play the game more and realise that cunning use of forges and high move units could beat the game much faster. And I don't want to sound condescending for once, but it's generally my experience that less experienced players tend to hype up durability and survivability over movement and raw offense.

As I stated before, there's nothing wrong if the rules are (in anyone's view) a bit unbalanced for the test run. Once this is finished and everyone has their turncounts in, then we'll see if there really needs to be a change

(to that end I would personally leave nosferatu unbanned until it's super obvious that the team that has it is doing so stupidly well that nobody can catch up but i haven't played too much of fe13 so i can't speak for how broken it really is)

There is no "team that has it". Between Tiki, Miriel, MU, Sariya, Libera, and Henry, you should have one, usually two nosferatu users.

Edited May 26, 2012 by Anouleth