Zelgius

[Samias]

It is borderline.Ike was going to take over but his father hadn't finished showing him the ins and outs. Remember, when we first start playing PoR, Ike is totally green and Mist has only just started helping out around the mercenary's base too. Many people still refer to Mist as a child, and Shinon and Gatrie certainly look down on Ike for his inexperience, to the point where they leave the camp when Greil dies. They don't trust Ike as a leader. So yes, Ike is on the cusp of manhood, but he wasn't quite there and then he's forced to mature and take over for his father. Mist is luckily mature for her age, but her ability to take care of herself and others is still low, as evidenced in some of the support conversations. The Black Knight didn't HAVE to kill Greil. He could have threatened Ike or Mist to provoke Greil, but went right to killing Greil, which doesn't even help the BK's cause to retrieve the medallion.

[Sunwoo]

It means that the BK killed Greil knowing they had no mother, and thus turning them into orphans. Ike was still in his late teens and Mist was even younger. They were in a merc group, but that is still pretty heartless to kill a single father when you know he's single, just for the personal satisfaction.

Yes, this exactly.

[whase]

I think BK killed Greil on accident. He expected a big and tough fight with his old master, instead he realised to late what his previous master had become. He probably thought that stab was easy enough to deflect.

But now with Greil dying, he still had to complete the mission given to him (acquiring the medal). He had to improvise a new plan, and threatening Ike and Mist was the best thing he could come up with. After all, a true soldier never fails without doing anything he can to succeed.

at the end of RD, he's all like "only 1 will survive". He never really wanted to kill Ike (just fight him) but figured "meh, if the world is going down, I might as well go all out and see if I can."

[Paper Jam]

I am inclined to agree with whase. Zelgius didn't know that Greil had slashed his right hand, so he didn't know that what might have been easily deflected by the old Greil might yet be deadly to the new Greil.

On the other hand, the possibility that he might kill Greil must have crossed his mind; he did specifically ask Greil "Do you want to die?" after Greil refused to take up Ragnell.

Edited June 4, 2012 by Paper Jam

[Paper Jam]

Double post, sorry

Edited June 4, 2012 by Paper Jam

[Starwave]

Sorry to pile on some more questions BUT.

-Why does Zelgius help Micaiah in the first place? His presence is ancillary (Micaiah is dead without him) and Sephiran probably needed her to build up suitable army to cause more bloodshed, but isn't she irrelevant after that point? Why does he show up to help her in 2 more chapters?

-At one point Micaiah asks Zelgius if he's here for her and her friends in Part IV. He responds with "not them, just you." Why would say that? Isn't she trying to OPPOSE Sephiran? And if that's the case why didn't he strike her down when he had the chance or take her by will? He gives her a cryptic message and leaves... could he come for her on his own accord?

-Why does he refer to her as "his maiden?"

[Samias]

Branded can sense other branded. Maybe it has something to do with that? Also, if he has been reporting back to Sephiran, perhaps they do suspect/know Micaiah is the true apostle. They know that Sanaki is not, at least.

[nano]

I think he knows Miccy's true identity.

There are two lines of dialogue that are of interest:

Micaiah vs. Sephiran （4-E-4）：

Sephiran: The Silver-Haired Maiden. It's taken so long to finally meet you. If I had known you still lived, I.. I... No, it's too late. This changes nothing. I cannot falter.

Remeber that Sephiran's plan took a few years to start running. Specifically, he starts thinking about it when the Empress died and SF got burnt down. He did not know Miccy was alive then. He finally knows after the DB made a name for themselves, but then he dicided that he could no longer back down. BK is sent to protect Micaiah. The survival of the DB does not matter for Sephiran; if Daein is still under Numida's supervision they would get involved in the war anyway. He just wants Miccy to survive because Misaha is his soft spot.

Then in a talk conversation between Miccy and BK in 4-3 (apparently not up on SF）， the BK asks Miccy to go with him to meet his master. Miccy refused, not wanting to leave her allies behind. This is a huge tell that Sephiran knows all about Miccy's identity.

I don't think you should put too much thought into the Maiden part, the implications could be different when the word is used in Japanese.

Edited June 4, 2012 by nano

[Jotari]

I reckon he did know of Sephiran's entire plan. As people have stated already it seems likely that Sephiran knew Miciah's origins and if he sent Zelgius there to protect her then Zelgius likely knew of Sephiran's origins too. He seems very sure of his reasoning to protect Miciah. He never says anything like he doesn't understand her importance yet still needs to protect her. And Sephiran did tell them when they first met that he was in a similar position to Zelgius. After spending so long together Zelgius most likely asked what he meant by that. Further more Ike''s memory scene shows that he is well aware that this medallion is not something that will bring peace and harmony onto the world. Causing Ashnard's war and all the bloodshed that followed in both games Zelgius would have to know that Sephiran had some kind of motive. Either that or he reckons Sephiran is really damn sadistic for no reason thinks it's cool to help him out a bit.

[Noktra]

[...]

2&3. [...] And I'm not sure who said it and what the exact line was but "to move at such speed with that heavy armor" was where I find his branded blood to kick in, not with his skill on the battlefield.

4. really, you think Ike, pretty much the leader of this army, would let the man whom killed his father join his army to fight side by side? in battle you need to trust the ones you fight with, I don't think even Ike is this trustworthy. Ike needed the revenge to move on with his life.

2+3. Agreed, that's what I think too. (And it was Ranulf saying this after their battle at port Toha, if I'm not mistaken.) His skill with his sword is a result of his training I think, otherwise he wouldn't be so proud of it. (he despises his branded blood, so why being proud of anything that hails from it?)

4. And that's the reason I can't stand Ike lol (at least since RD...). Ike says himself that after hearing that the BlackKnight still lives, he felt no sadness nor anger, just joy. Joy that his most formidable opponent was still alive. (so that he could battle him again I guess)

That tells me he pretty much was over his revenge thingie already... he had this soluted after their battle in PoR... But still... he kills him... and not by accident.... (Ike at Tibarn: he won't walk away this time. - prerior to his battle with Zelgius.)

He insisted in killing Zelgius... Despite being over his revenge and having some sort of respect for Zelgius. ... (Ike asked Sanaki why she hadn't put Zelgius in command of the combined army). ...

(But Micaiah's even worse... she had a reason to go and save him...)

(And personally, I find Zelgius despite of his grim and sinister ways much more trustworthy than someone like... Oliver...)

I'd been happy enough with an option to keep him alive, not necessarily recruiting him -.-; (because I don't need to see him dying to know he's a tragic character *growls at IS*)

Oh i dont know. If you fight Lehran with Micaiah in the Tower, they have an exchange that goes something like:

Micaiah:You... I've heard about you. Have we... met before?

Lehran: The Silver-Haired Maiden. It's taken so long to finally meet you. If I had known you still lived, I.. I... No, it's too late. This changes nothing. I cannot falter.

So it seems Sephiran wasnt aware Micaiah was even alive until he actually went to Daein to do his whole inspection thing (near the end of Part 1) on the Begnion Occupation. Its possible that the BK informed Sephiran about Micaiah's identity around the time of 1-9. Saying something about her having silver hair and weird powers. I could imagine Sephiran being all "If thats true, than you should go protect her!" Something tells me that Sephiran didnt reveal Micaiah's true identity to Zelgius, and if he did, it was way later like, around part 4. Since BK comes to her aid in the desert. In 1-E, yeah BK notes that Micaiah reminds him of someone. "her." (which is Sanaki without a doubt.) But even still, im sure Sephiran didnt reveal every detail to Zelgius.

That snippit of convo actually eludes to the fact that if Lehran had known Micaiah was alive and well, he wouldnt have bothered with all this chessmastery and gambit ploys.

hmm let's sort things out...

it was sothe who asked tormod to inform the empress about the situation in Daein. Tormod came back with the news that sephiran himself was leading the investigation (hence the festivities pre part 1-9)

so we can say after this point sephiran knew of a maiden in charge of the daein rebellion, surely he wanted to protect her (if only as a chessfigure in his game) => he send zelgius.

zelgius is most eager to protect her of course, but if micaiah dies... I find his quote rather interesting... it's pretty much... 'there she goes, oh well, whatever...' (actual quote Black Knight: The maiden is lost, and her miracles have run dry... Shall Daein's dreams also dissolve into dust?)

He pretty much doesn't care two bits about her, just about her role in the daein rebellion.

If miacaiah dies in 1-F all he says is: Maiden...

which sounds to me like he suddenly feels sorry for her.

Where did that come from? What changed his oppinion on Micaiah so suddenly?

It can't be the failure to his master's orders, otherwise he wouldn't go all 'meh' in 1-9 lol.

The only other thing I can think of (other than falling in love with her, that is *lol*) is he regocnized her true identity.

He is branded too, so he could tell she is branded. (why no one else can tell he is branded is another good question...)

Micaiah said she felt that she can trust him (1-9) = heart reading abbility of the serenes? (at least he seems smart enough to think about a possible connetion, I guess)

And then the similarity to Sanaki...

If he knows Sephiran's true identity that would be enough information to draw a line to his master / Misaha.

(And yes, I think with "her" he meant Sanaki. To be honest, I thought about Elena first too. But if anyone would resemble Elena, it's Mist. Mist's similarity to her mother is one of the first things we get to know in PoR.

Second, the Black Knight stated the similarity after asking Micaiah to stand back, which she refused because she doesn't want others to fight for her sake; something Sanaki said too, later in the game (Naesala Bodyguard Scene.))

That leads me to the point to say it was Zelgius who regocnized Micaiahs true identity, not Sephiran... If Sephiran knew and send Zelgius, he would've made clear that Micaiah has to survive no matter what. I think Zelgius' reaction to micaiah's death in 1-9 would be different then...

(That or Zelgius is not as loyal and obedient as we think he is lol)

But I have to admit, that even if he regocnize Micaiah as the true apostel, it tells nothing of him knowing sephiran's true story... Zelgius could see the line to Misaha only.

...But I don't know.... something tells me he did know... I think it's their death quotes... Both, Sephiran and Zelgius, talk about each other and waiting for them in the afterlife. That's almost like they were knowingly going to death and promised to see each other again. Seems much more than just a Master/Servant relation to me. (But maybe I'm seeing things lol)

1 -Why does Zelgius help Micaiah in the first place? His presence is ancillary (Micaiah is dead without him) and Sephiran probably needed her to build up suitable army to cause more bloodshed, but isn't she irrelevant after that point? Why does he show up to help her in 2 more chapters?

2 -At one point Micaiah asks Zelgius if he's here for her and her friends in Part IV. He responds with "not them, just you." Why would say that? Isn't she trying to OPPOSE Sephiran? And if that's the case why didn't he strike her down when he had the chance or take her by will? He gives her a cryptic message and leaves... could he come for her on his own accord?

3 -Why does he refer to her as "his maiden?"

1. I think he shows up again because he wants to help her. As stated before I think he knows Miccys true heritage at that point. If he knows Sephiran's true identity aswell that would make Micaiah kind of "his Lady" as "daughter" of his master. (If he doesn't know Sephiran's true self then... I see no point in rescuing Micaiah again and again *lol* I don't think he'd had any interest in saving the true apostle.) And I don't think he helps her on Sephiran's order at that point... When Zelgius rescues Sephiran from prison, all Sephiran seems concerned of is Sanaki's well-being; which makes me think Sephiran does not know Micaiaha's identity at that point. (otherwise wouldn't he been concerned about her too?)

(Another interesting thing is, how did Zelgius know Micaiah is in need of him again? I mean they were both leaders of an army, on different sides of a river... How did he know Micaiah was going to lead the nightly assault on the retreating Laguz? Did some Senator inform him? And even then... how did he make it? ... Disappearing as a general (with time to change his armor...) ... ...)

2. Interesting thought and something that crossed my mind too...

I'm pretty sure he had informed his master about Micaiah at this point. So I think it very likely that Sephiran really wanted to see her.

But somehow I have the feeling Zelgius might've been there mainly on his own accord...

He's there only to save Micaiah... Sanaki is present too, but it doesn't matter to him. (Ok, Sanaki has her Holy Guard... but still).

And then, it stunned me wat he had to say...

Black Knight

Your allies will turn to stone when the light of judgment next shines. I do not wish for you to see it.

Micaiah

The light will strike again? When? Please tell me!

Black Knight

...Maiden. I will come for you again. Make up your mind by then.

"I do not wish for you to see it."

What does that mean... He doesn't want her to get hurt, not even mentally, not even feeling pain or sadness. He doesn't want her to have to watch her friends die. It almost seems that he wants to protect her from any harm.

I mean... wow... either he really cares for her or it was a trick to lure her into coming with him... maybe a bit of both.

But Micaiah doesn't get it, all she hears is "friends in danger".

After that he backs off.

And I don't find "Make up your mind by then" very nice... Maybe it's just me... but... it feels like he's setting an ultimatum on her.

At least I think it's not the polite and respectfull way like he's usually talking to her. (Or am I completely nuts now?) Was he... angered by her response?

This scene kept me wondering...

3.

I don't think you should put too much thought into the Maiden part, the implications could be different when the word is used in Japanese.

I'm not too sure about that. He wasn't calling her "My Maiden" right from the start. If I recall correctly, the first time he calls her "his" was upon his returning in 3-6.

But I'd love to have some insight in the japanese script.

...way too long post... sorry about that ^^;

[Loki Laufeyson]

I think BK killed Greil on accident. He expected a big and tough fight with his old master, instead he realised to late what his previous master had become. He probably thought that stab was easy enough to deflect.

But now with Greil dying, he still had to complete the mission given to him (acquiring the medal). He had to improvise a new plan, and threatening Ike and Mist was the best thing he could come up with. After all, a true soldier never fails without doing anything he can to succeed.

at the end of RD, he's all like "only 1 will survive". He never really wanted to kill Ike (just fight him) but figured "meh, if the world is going down, I might as well go all out and see if I can."

Accident is a bit of a stretch but it is implied he didnt INTEND to immediately kill Greil. But more like "omg hes using an axe against me...wtf...well this is pointless..might as well just kill him." Because what Greil says as "The only weapon I need, IS RIGHT HERE!!!" Huge clue to the BK that Greil isnt using swords more. Because he says "I prefer you use your proper weapon..." or something like that.

I agree he didnt wanna kill Ike. After the fight in Nados, BK knew he couldnt really beat him. In 3-7, he says something like "I was fighting Greil's shadow, not the man himself." Ike says something like "But it was I who walked out the castle that day..." And BK is all "yep..." and also implying that Ike is basically Greil in his prime. By the time they fight in the Tower, Zelgius knows damn well he cant beat Ike but tries anyway.

Sorry to pile on some more questions BUT.

-Why does Zelgius help Micaiah in the first place? His presence is ancillary (Micaiah is dead without him) and Sephiran probably needed her to build up suitable army to cause more bloodshed, but isn't she irrelevant after that point? Why does he show up to help her in 2 more chapters?

-At one point Micaiah asks Zelgius if he's here for her and her friends in Part IV. He responds with "not them, just you." Why would say that? Isn't she trying to OPPOSE Sephiran? And if that's the case why didn't he strike her down when he had the chance or take her by will? He gives her a cryptic message and leaves... could he come for her on his own accord?

-Why does he refer to her as "his maiden?"

BK doesnt arrive in Daein until after Sephiran does. ;) So i guess Sephiran had a hunch about Micaiah's identity and ordered BK to protect her. This implies that Sephiran knew Jarod would want vengeance.

Micaiah had no idea that Sephiran was behind Zelgius/BK. BK is all "ill take you to my master" and she goes "who is your master?" and hes like "You'll find out when you come with me." Shes like "Im not leaving my friends!" I think BK was aware that they'd end up at the Tower anyway. Because all the groups were destroying the Disciples of Order anyway. I still think Sephiran didnt reveal everything to Zelgius, just enough for Zelgius to want to follow him still. Saying "the Maiden is important." However Zelgius probably put two and two together by the time part 4 came about anyway. After all, it was known at that point that she could hear the goddess and that Yune was using her as an avatar. Would he come on his own accord? I think it likely. Both are branded after all and he may find a bond there. Its odd that she doesnt seem to be able to sense that about the BK. o_O

Maiden is one of her (many) titles.