June 7th DLC - Eirika

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Pandora and Lumi, I'll have to ask you 2 to continue your conversation through PM/profile.

[Othin]

Gotta agree. The only characters' art I've been completely satisfied with are Leaf's and Celice's. Everyone else has ranged from that to awful.

You're agreeing with reasoning that I just demonstrated to be absolute nonsense? Do explain.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Othin

[Original Alear]

You're agreeing with reasoning that I just demonstrated to be absolute nonsense? Do explain.

Umm the point pockystix originally made was that he hopes characters were more like their originals in the next FE, assuming DLC like this was done again (basically a statement of preference), while your main point was that IS clearly didn't intend to make FE13 lords look like their original appearance. Seemed like you were talking past him without understanding his post, not actually debunking him. Even with the spotpass providing characters in preexisting FE13 non-lord classes, it's absolutely reasonable (if a little less novel) to desire the DLC custom classes/art to feature lord characters more in line with their original appearances.

If he had said "IS was supposed to make it like this and they didn't" your post would have made sense, but he was saying "I hope it will be like this later, and am dissatisfied that its like this now" which your post only addressed very slightly.

I do think it's weird that Momo would agree with that post, and then praise Celice's art while not praising Marth's (Leaf however is pretty close to his FE5 costume).

Edited June 2, 2012 by Hawkeye Hank Hatfield

[Othin]

Umm the point pockystix originally made was that he hopes characters were more like their originals in the next FE, assuming DLC like this was done again (basically a statement of preference), while your main point was that IS clearly didn't intend to make FE13 lords look like their original appearance. Seemed like you were talking past him without understanding his post, not actually debunking him. Even with the spotpass providing characters in preexisting FE13 non-lord classes, it's absolutely reasonable (if a little less novel) to desire the DLC custom classes/art to feature lord characters more in line with their original appearances.

I do think it's weird that Momo would agree with that post, and then praise Celice's art while not praising Marth's (Leaf however is pretty close to his FE5 costume).

Okay, looking things over, the part I had taken notice of was:

I think IS will need to try a little harder to make the characters they bring feel more like their original counterparts

Which I interpreted as saying they were trying and failing to do that, but looking over it again, I see that it could perhaps more easily be read as saying they're not trying but they should. Although to that I would still ask why one would want them to do that with SpotPass existing anyway.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Othin

[Original Alear]

I will say that, insofar as whose taste I actually lean towards, I do generally prefer the idea of making lords different in DLC. I particularly like Alm and Elincia.

[StrategistPockystix]

Which I interpreted as saying they were trying and failing to do that, but looking over it again, I see that it could perhaps more easily be read as saying they're not trying but they should. Although to that I would still ask why one would want them to do that with SpotPass existing anyway.

y'see, I dunno the inner workings of IS development for the DLC. They could be doing what you're saying, or they could just be throwing out characters with classes close enough to their originals, that they can say that they are still the same character.

either which way, I don't know how my opinion that they would need to work harder is something that needs to be argued, I mean, while it's possible they could really want to see Elinicia without her trademark weapon, and see Eirika in a wedding gown. . . I have the suspicion that it may just be to cut down on the time and cost for the DLC. . . which is fine, because it will just help those determine as to whether or not they'll want to purchase it.

for me, I'd only purchase well made DLC characters, and pick up spotpass characters based on who I like, and whether or not they actually still feel like themselves. I don't really have any interest in having my units become the illustrious Bride class, nor do I think I can pick up Knight Nephenee with a straight face.

but that's just me, opinionated old stick of baked goodness

[Ema Skye]

Eirika is just them showing off said new class, even though it doesn't really fit her. But, out of the remaining female lords (her, Lyn and Celicia), it fits her the best The approach is a little wonky, but we'll all get used to it after a while.

General Neph uses her RD artwork, not any new one. Grab a change seal and reclass her if it bothers you. Neph is spotpass, and is therefore free, so you're the only one on the losing end if you don't download her. Nintendo wasn't making money off of SpotPass, so when you refuse to download her, they don't care. SpotPass is free, so why should they put lots of work into it? They're giving characters people like. If they had to make new classes, SpotPass wouldn't be free anymore. Elincia would need a new class for her to have Amiti (since Falcoknights can't use Swords), as would Neph if you wanted Halberdier.

[Othin]

Yeah, for the case of existing classes, I'm having trouble seeing any substance to your complaints beyond "they didn't have the exact class in this game". And that seems kinda silly. Trabant, Narshen, and Ashnard were all also among the characters brought over: their original versions could use swords, but their FE13 versions cannot just because their class doesn't exist anymore. And in the case of Narshen and Ashnard, they did use swords, and those swords don't even exist in this game. So is that worth getting worked up about too, that they didn't add a modified Dragonmaster class? What about the Generals who no longer use swords, either?

There are three ways they could have addressed this. One, they could have held completely to the traditions of the old games, never changing anything for the sake of this. That would obviously be terrible. Two, they could have made custom classes for all those bonus characters. That would have been unreasonable, and not all that easy to properly implement. Three, they could have refrained from including those characters at all, and who really wants that?

Seems to me they made the best option they could have been expected to. So I don't think it's laziness so much as that this is just what works as a way of implementing them with what they had to work with.

[Momo]

I do think it's weird that Momo would agree with that post, and then praise Celice's art while not praising Marth's (Leaf however is pretty close to his FE5 costume).

Oops, I meant Roy when I said Celice. I'm dumb. And even then the design isn't that true to the character, I just like the artist's work.

That said, I do not like Marth's art. It's true to his design, I just don't like it. Something about it rubs me the wrong way, almost like it's someone else wearing Marth's clothes (ironic I know considering the game it's in).

[StrategistPockystix]

Yeah, for the case of existing classes, I'm having trouble seeing any substance to your complaints beyond "they didn't have the exact class in this game". And that seems kinda silly. Trabant, Narshen, and Ashnard were all also among the characters brought over: their original versions could use swords, but their FE13 versions cannot just because their class doesn't exist anymore. And in the case of Narshen and Ashnard, they did use swords, and those swords don't even exist in this game. So is that worth getting worked up about too, that they didn't add a modified Dragonmaster class? What about the Generals who no longer use swords, either?

There are three ways they could have addressed this. One, they could have held completely to the traditions of the old games, never changing anything for the sake of this. That would obviously be terrible. Two, they could have made custom classes for all those bonus characters. That would have been unreasonable, and not all that easy to properly implement. Three, they could have refrained from including those characters at all, and who really wants that?

Seems to me they made the best option they could have been expected to. So I don't think it's laziness so much as that this is just what works as a way of implementing them with what they had to work with.

you forgot the actual option they could have done (which when you look at it, is what they did with the case of the Lord classes) basically keep them relatively the same, only tweaked and under a different name. How much harder would it have been to take a class and change 1 or 2 caps, and swap a weapon for another? I would've been completely fine if Elinica was essentially a Pegasus knight with a sword instead of a lance rank. it would be lazy still, but not as much as before.

calling the choices the best they could make would make sense under time constraints, again, I don't know how rushed IS were to get this game out on time and have a bunch of characters to appear in-game as cameos. So I can admit to being judgmental, but I criticize mostly for the purpose of wanting to see FE13 do everything it can, and do it well. And from the look of it, it's just the DLC that needs a little more time in the oven next time.

Though I am not going to fool myself into believing that these changes were for some "in a new light" decision. . . that seems a little too hopelessly optimistic to assume.

Edited June 3, 2012 by StrategistPockystix

[Shun One]

you forgot the actual option they could have done (which when you look at it, is what they did with the case of the Lord classes) basically keep them relatively the same, only tweaked and under a different name. How much harder would it have been to take a class and change 1 or 2 caps, and swap a weapon for another? I would've been completely fine if Elinica was essentially a Pegasus knight with a sword instead of a lance rank. it would be lazy still, but not as much as before.

That...would not be easy. Getting the asset's together, balancing, programming, debuging, and in the event they run into a bug, doing it all over again until it's fixed. All of this, on a schedule. You're essentially asking them to make custom classes for nearly every unit of the old games because the weapon types simply aren't the same anymore.

That is...not feasible given how chaotic game development can be

[NeonZ]

Though I am not going to fool myself into believing that these changes were for some "in a new light" decision. . . that seems a little too hopelessly optimistic to assume.

There's nothing romantic about it. At this point, I think it's pretty obvious that's their intention with the DLC. The spotpass characters are the ones where they tried to get as close as they could within FE13's system limitations (remember that the idea to include guests came after FE13 was pretty much done, so they didn plan to make the classes match up with earlier games initially - if they had done that, I think there'd have been less issues there), however, I don't think that's true for the DLC.

The two new DLC classes are just new and don't really match up any playable characters. Even Alm lost bows. Considering how they're giving a custom class with Eirika, they could have made it much closer to her own class too. They're also purposely avoiding to give lord classes to the past lords. Someone like Celice could just have gotten another variation of Marth's/Masked Marth's lord class if they were just trying to make the characters look as classical as possible. Not only they didn't do that, for new classes, we're getting a completely revamped Magic Fighter and now this "Bride" that isn't based on anything and don't match up perfectly with any previous lord. Better preparation next time, if they keep this system, might mean that the spotpass characters equivalent will be closer to the original versions, but the DLC versions seem to be purposefully different at this point.

Edited June 3, 2012 by NeonZ

[Momo]

They're charging four dollars for it, they better fucking have that stuff available for tweaking.

[Shun One]

They're charging four dollars for it, they better fucking have that stuff available for tweaking.

If this was aimed at my post, I'm referring to SpotPass...which is free.

Hm...though thinking on it, if the goal of DLC is not to be exactly the same as their original appearance, Ike being something that's not a Hero makes even more sense.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Shun One

[Othin]

you forgot the actual option they could have done (which when you look at it, is what they did with the case of the Lord classes) basically keep them relatively the same, only tweaked and under a different name. How much harder would it have been to take a class and change 1 or 2 caps, and swap a weapon for another? I would've been completely fine if Elinica was essentially a Pegasus knight with a sword instead of a lance rank. it would be lazy still, but not as much as before.

calling the choices the best they could make would make sense under time constraints, again, I don't know how rushed IS were to get this game out on time and have a bunch of characters to appear in-game as cameos. So I can admit to being judgmental, but I criticize mostly for the purpose of wanting to see FE13 do everything it can, and do it well. And from the look of it, it's just the DLC that needs a little more time in the oven next time.

Though I am not going to fool myself into believing that these changes were for some "in a new light" decision. . . that seems a little too hopelessly optimistic to assume.

That was option #2. And yeah, it would have been an issue. I imagine making new animations like a sword isn't easy, especially when working with models like these.

It's also not necessarily so much of an issue with time constraints as the goal itself. One thing that's been kept consistent is that the SpotPass characters are playing by the same rules as the other FE13 characters. Aside from Star Lord, a special case because Marth is the main character of the entire series, they don't get any special, unique classes, skills, or items. And I think that's understandable.

Besides, I also already mentioned implementation as an issue. These characters have access to unlimited reclassing, like an MU. So would the new classes be added on top of the old? Would Elincia have two Falcon Knight class options? That sounds odd. Even odder would be to replace them and have a lance-only Pegasus Knight class promote to a sword/staff Falcon Knighgt class. So would her Pegasus Knight and Dark Pegasus classes have to be changed as well? That's really getting to sound excessive.

And no, you're mixing up these two points. The DLC characters are the ones I was saying were the new perspective - particularly in terms of artwork, but also things like Micaiah being a Dark Mage and Eirika being a Bride, both unlike their SpotPass versions where Micaiah is a Sage and Eirika is a Swordmaster. The SpotPass characters are the ones I am saying are an attempt to ease the old characters into the FE13 formula as best as they fit, resulting in the thoroughly FE13 versions of those original characters. The same applies for DLC characters like Elincia who are following their same SpotPass pattern.

What it really comes down to is that when FE13 and the characters are incompatible, which should be adjusted to suit the other?

I'm just saying - this stuff may sound great on paper, but when you look into the implications it would have, it's really not so great.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Othin

[Ema Skye]

Sorry for going a bit off-topic, but is there any footage of Celice's DLC out yet?

[StrategistPockystix]

That was option #2. And yeah, it would have been an issue. I imagine making new animations like a sword isn't easy, especially when working with models like these.

It's also not necessarily so much of an issue with time constraints as the goal itself. One thing that's been kept consistent is that the SpotPass characters are playing by the same rules as the other FE13 characters. Aside from Star Lord, a special case because Marth is the main character of the entire series, they don't get any special, unique classes, skills, or items. And I think that's understandable.

Besides, I also already mentioned implementation as an issue. These characters have access to unlimited reclassing, like an MU. So would the new classes be added on top of the old? Would Elincia have two Falcon Knight class options? That sounds odd. Even odder would be to replace them and have a lance-only Pegasus Knight class promote to a sword/staff Falcon Knighgt class. So would her Pegasus Knight and Dark Pegasus classes have to be changed as well? That's really getting to sound excessive.

And no, you're mixing up these two points. The DLC characters are the ones I was saying were the new perspective - particularly in terms of artwork, but also things like Micaiah being a Dark Mage and Eirika being a Bride, both unlike their SpotPass versions where Micaiah is a Sage and Eirika is a Swordmaster. The SpotPass characters are the ones I am saying are an attempt to ease the old characters into the FE13 formula as best as they fit, resulting in the thoroughly FE13 versions of those original characters. The same applies for DLC characters like Elincia who are following their same SpotPass pattern.

What it really comes down to is that when FE13 and the characters are incompatible, which should be adjusted to suit the other?

I'm just saying - this stuff may sound great on paper, but when you look into the implications it would have, it's really not so great.

yeah, I see your point now.

still makes me wonder what there initial plans were on the whole matter of classes. this being their first 3DS game may have had a hand in their lack of fluid animations in general (and some reused ones here and there). So I wonder if it's fair to assume they will probably just up this engine in the next installments, sprinkled with a few new classes and animations, a la the GBA games.

I guess I'm expecting a tad too much from FE13 in general. And I let it get to me, which I admit, but man the Bride did not help keep that dissatisfaction bottled up for a long.

In the end, I can say I'll just wait to see what IS does next, and until then I'll ignore the DLC stuff for FE13, and enjoy what the game has to offer on it's own merit. Unless they add the Soldier or Halberdier classes, which I would buy ASAP lol

Edited June 3, 2012 by StrategistPockystix

[Thor Odinson]

Arright. Checked ChinaFE since it's June 7th.

Turns out she has lances/bows/staves for her set.

http://wp1.sina.cn/woriginal/550089e4jw1dtpc2xi5vij.jpg

Caps are 40 STR 39 MAG 42 SKL 42SPD 45LUK 41DEF 40RES

(Eirika's personal bonus is SKL+2 SPD+4 LUK+1 DEF-3 RES-1)

Skills are Love Cry and Bond

Love Cry - When command is used, all stats +2 and move +1 for 1 turn for any unit within 3 range of her

Bond - Restore 10 HP to all units within 3 range of her at the start of turn

http://bbs.fireemblem.net/read.php?tid=229134&fpage=1 (source)

[Kramy]

Arright. Checked ChinaFE since it's June 7th.

Turns out she has lances/bows/staves for her set.

http://wp1.sina.cn/w...dtpc2xi5vij.jpg

Caps are 40 STR 39 MAG 42 SKL 42SPD 45LUK 41DEF 40RES

(Eirika's personal bonus is SKL+2 SPD+4 LUK+1 DEF-3 RES-1)

Skills are Love Cry and Bond

Love Cry - When command is used, all stats +2 and move +1 for 1 turn for any unit within 3 range of her

Bond - Restore 10 HP to all units within 3 range of her at the start of turn

http://bbs.fireemble...=229134&fpage=1 (source)

LOL "Love Cry" and "Bond"?!? Seems like Eirika is really pushing the bride image pretty well XD

[Othin]

Oh yeah, this thread. Was posting everything in my own thread.

I like the FE8 music for the map, but I think there's something wrong with its loop. Seems like this jarring jump where returning to the beginning just doesn't make sense.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Othin

[uguu]

Oh yeah, this thread. Was posting everything in my own thread.

Question: In that screenshot Eirika has C for all three weapon types, but you said she had E Lances/C Bows/D Staves. Did you make a mistake or could that be attributed to difficulty or what?

[Thor Odinson]

LOL

Anyway I got Rey to translate her joining blurb

"This dress? Oh no, it's not like I was in the middle of a wedding ceremony or anything..."

That screenshot has Eirika with already a few levels under her belt so I assume they trained her levels.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Fat Bunny

[Othin]

Question: In that screenshot Eirika has C for all three weapon types, but you said she had E Lances/C Bows/D Staves. Did you make a mistake or could that be attributed to difficulty or what?

Difficulty level. The stats I listed were correct for Normal, but everything is higher in that screenshot and matches up with Hard, including the weapon levels.

Poking around the map, it seems all enemies on HM have C rank or higher. I knew everything has A rank on Lunatic, but I did not know that this was this consistent. Interesting.

Funnily enough, as an enemy on HM, L'arachel has Axe B, Staff C. I guess it's just to use a Bolt Axe, though.

[Saethori]

With those weapon types and skills, the Bride class seems fantastic.

I'm just not comfortable with Eirika losing her only weapon type.

(Also, L'Arachel as Battle Cleric seems a little out of place compared to getting Valkyrie instead, though it's obvious one way or another she's 'promoting' from her natural Troubadour state.)

[Thor Odinson]

Well there's always slamming Bride on someone else for the support boons and reclassing Eirika to SM or Paladin or something.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Fat Bunny