About the plot.

[Westbrick]

Having beaten the game several times now, I still know next to nothing about the plot. I've picked up a few of the major details, but my major question isn't about the content, but the feel. This seems like a game that doesn't take itself overly seriously (all the crossovers, shipping, etc.), but I've read elsewhere that the plot is actually rather dark in places. Is this true? I would certainly hope so. Because given how beautiful this game is in places (especially the music... ), I would hate to see that undermined by a half-hearted story.

Thanks in advance.

[shadowofchaos]

Well, I would NORMALLY be able to give you details because I speak a little bit of moon... but given how I've surprisingly haven't dropped money on the Kakusei pack for some reason...

And I've been mostly been keeping away from the spoilers... I apologize. XD

Well, from the little snips and bits I've unavoidably been able to see, of course it's expected that the crossovers and such cause a bit of jumping all over the place in terms of plot "solidity". But what do you expect? It's a fanservice game... it's a great game nonetheless.

And from what I've heard, fans have eaten up the story with such satisfaction despite time loop crap I ABSOLUTELY hate. My gosh... *cough* Tsubasa and Blazblue *cough* that it works VERY well for that kind of a title.

You'll just have to wait till it's localized. So get hyped, until you get your fantastic story in English.

[Onestep]

Having beaten the game several times now, I still know next to nothing about the plot. I've picked up a few of the major details, but my major question isn't about the content, but the feel. This seems like a game that doesn't take itself overly seriously (all the crossovers, shipping, etc.), but I've read elsewhere that the plot is actually rather dark in places. Is this true? I would certainly hope so. Because given how beautiful this game is in places (especially the music... ), I would hate to see that undermined by a half-hearted story.

Thanks in advance.

Why I myself haven't played the game, my roommate (who's fairly fluent in moonspeak) has.

In his opinion the game is very much a divergence away from 'traditional' Fire Emblem in terms of plot and far closer to a more straightforward JRPG. That said, it isn't isn't over-the-top and has some genuinely dark moments, along with numerous heartwarming ones. It does very much leans towards idealism though. Good people are good, Bad people are making bad choices but could be good, we can change fate and save the world etc etc.

The important thing that he said though, is that the plot is kept quite seperate from all the fanservice. For instance, the whole crossover thing is blatant fanservice and has little to no relevance to the main story, which takes itself pretty seriously.

Apart from the Gate being used by the Children characters and Gimle of course

As for the shipping... Well, it has it's role in the story with the children characters.

Also the last line said by MU in the MU Ending is probably the single most badass thing in the game.

I'm sorry that this answer was a bit vague, but to be fair, your question was too. If you want any more details, then give me a shout and I'll ask him.

[Westbrick]

Why I myself haven't played the game, my roommate (who's fairly fluent in moonspeak) has.

In his opinion the game is very much a divergence away from 'traditional' Fire Emblem in terms of plot and far closer to a more straightforward JRPG. That said, it isn't isn't over-the-top and has some genuinely dark moments, along with numerous heartwarming ones. It does very much leans towards idealism though. Good people are good, Bad people are making bad choices but could be good, we can change fate and save the world etc etc.

The important thing that he said though, is that the plot is kept quite seperate from all the fanservice. For instance, the whole crossover thing is blatant fanservice and has little to no relevance to the main story, which takes itself pretty seriously.

Apart from the Gate being used by the Children characters and Gimle of course

As for the shipping... Well, it has it's role in the story with the children characters.

Also the last line said by MU in the MU Ending is probably the single most badass thing in the game.

I'm sorry that this answer was a bit vague, but to be fair, your question was too. If you want any more details, then give me a shout and I'll ask him.

This wasn't vague at all; great stuff. Any chance you could post MU's last line?

As for more detailed questions... hm. Fire Emblem plots have never been exactly morally ambiguous, but most games have a developed villain that's rather sympathetic. Alvis, Zephiel, Lyon, etc. I'd hope FE13 has its own sympathetic villain, although I'm not sure who that could be. Certainly not Fauder.

[Othin]

Well, three of the main villains are recruitable. I don't know much about the circumstances for Gangrel and Valhart, but we ultimately learn about Inverse being manipulated by Fauder. That realization seems to be entirely postgame stuff after her being a villain, though, so I'm not sure about the relevance.

[nocturnal YL]

[spoiler=Sympathetic villain?]Renha, of course.

[Othin]

I considered mentioning Renha, but my understanding is that he isn't developed as a villain at all.

[Westbrick]

Well, three of the main villains are recruitable. I don't know much about the circumstances for Gangrel and Valhart, but we ultimately learn about Inverse being manipulated by Fauder. That realization seems to be entirely postgame stuff after her being a villain, though, so I'm not sure about the relevance.

Are we even sure the SpotPass stuff is canon? Because I can't imagine Krom's sister being able to survive a twenty-story fall is in any way realistic.

[MoonAdept]

The fact that the spotpass characters can produce Mark leads me to think that they may be canon. Magic could have been involved with Emelina's survival. This is a video game, after all.

[Westbrick]

The fact that the spotpass characters can produce Mark leads me to think that they may be canon. Magic could have been involved with Emelina's survival. This is a video game, after all.

Video game or not, it'd be bad writing, especially in a game that (hopefully) takes itself semi-seriously. Even in a world of magic, there needs to be rules of consistency.

[Onestep]

This wasn't vague at all; great stuff. Any chance you could post MU's last line?

As for more detailed questions... hm. Fire Emblem plots have never been exactly morally ambiguous, but most games have a developed villain that's rather sympathetic. Alvis, Zephiel, Lyon, etc. I'd hope FE13 has its own sympathetic villain, although I'm not sure who that could be. Certainly not Fauder.

As you may be aware, there are two endings in the game, depending upon whether Krom or MU strike the final blow on Gimle (Being the only two cpable of killing him, due to Falchion and the Bond respectively). The difference is that Krom finishing Gimle off will merely put him back to sleep, with the chance that the people of the future will once again come into conflict with Gimle. MU, due to his bond with Gimle, has the power to put him down for good and kill him once and for all. However, that link will also likely cause MU to die along with Gimle. His final words are basically:

MU: 'You can't be trusted. But I can. So... I'll go with you."

As he kills Gimle.

And bizzarely enough, Gangrel is fairly sympathetic once recruited accorind to the roommate. His motives, though nearly invisible behind his sadism, revolved around uniting the continent so as to be able to oppose Varm. He never wanted Gimle to destory everything. He also shows regret for his sadism and popularising the Gimle cult, suggesting that he was simply so caught up in revelling in his own power and the rush to unite the continent that he simply lost track of himself and the people he wanted to save. And then there's Inverse, who's basically Nino. And Renha. Really, all the villains but Gimle have some sympathetic qualities.

[Othin]

Emelina, as a promoted Cleric, does have the Miracle skill, allowing her to barely survive a fatal blow. While the whole situation bugs me more for the matter of "why wasn't her body found and why'd she wind up over there", the surviving part isn't all that odd.

Say, what's Valhart's exact story? I heard something about him trying to stop Fauder, but then why'd he end up fighting Krom? His whole process doesn't seem to friendly itself, either.

[Westbrick]

Emelina, as a promoted Cleric, does have the Miracle skill, allowing her to barely survive a fatal blow. While the whole situation bugs me more for the matter of "why wasn't her body found and why'd she wind up over there", the surviving part isn't all that odd.

Miracle is a gameplay mechanic unrelated to plot events. I'm not sure it can defy the laws of physics in such a major way.

[Book of Ereshkigal]

Right after Gravity claimed Eme, didn't Krom and co have to retreat immediately, for some reason? That's why they didn't have a body, I guess.

Unless my head is just making stuff up again...

Edited July 5, 2012 by L95

[Othin]

Miracle is a gameplay mechanic unrelated to plot events. I'm not sure it can defy the laws of physics in such a major way.

"Unrelated to plot" is not an assumption you can possibly justify.

Elsewhere in that scene, an enemy Archer kills Ferian using the "gameplay mechanic" of arrows slaying fliers. This seems no different: Clerics have divine protection that allows them to barely survive otherwise fatal injuries, such as an axe to the face. Fatal falling injuries shouldn't be any stranger to survive.

Right after Gravity claimed Eme, didn't Krom and co have to retread immediately, for some reason? That's why they didn't have a body, I guess.

Unless my head is just making stuff up again...

Hmm, good question. I know Inverse had summoned a bunch of soldiers, but then Basilio and Flavia showed up to help Krom. That definitely sounds like a way the scene might have happened, and it would explain the main issue.

[Westbrick]

"Unrelated to plot" is not an assumption you can possibly justify.

Elsewhere in that scene, an enemy Archer kills Ferian using the "gameplay mechanic" of arrows slaying fliers. This seems no different: Clerics have divine protection that allows them to barely survive otherwise fatal injuries, such as an axe to the face. Fatal falling injuries shouldn't be any stranger to survive.

Except that the distinction between gameplay logic and plot logic is one of the most common when it comes to JRPG storytelling. In Final Fantasy VII, for instance, your units are burned, frozen, shot, cut, and maimed in just about every way possible; this doesn't mean that when it comes to the logic of the plot, characters are suddenly able to survive, say, getting stabbed in the gut. There's always been a clear divide.

Linking skills and gameplay also has some rather humorous implications. So if Dark Knight Tiamo killed an enemy soldier in the context of the plot, would she and her pegasus somehow double in speed? When wielding a brave sword, does the swordmaster somehow swing his arm twice as fast? Would a priestess with Miracle be able to shoot herself in the head and survive? It makes little sense.

[Othin]

I'm well aware of that bullshit and am thoroughly confused as to why you're not only defending it but encouraging it.

The FE world contains magic, so sure, let's go with all of that. I see no reason not to: magic does weird stuff.

[Westbrick]

I'm well aware of that bullshit and am thoroughly confused as to why you're not only defending it but encouraging it.

The FE world contains magic, so sure, let's go with all of that. I see no reason not to: magic does weird stuff.

The only thing I'm "encouraging" is plot quality and consistency. "Magic does weird stuff" is not a justifiable reason for having an anything-goes approach to your story, especially when no one in the game treats skills as representative of reality. Do Krom and company ever bring up that, gee, maybe his sister is alive because she has miracle? Do they ever talk about using skills in the context of battle strategies? No. Because gameplay and plot are, unless otherwise specified, separate.

To be clear: if skills and plot are linked, as you're suggesting they are, then you'd have to concede a unit with miracle pushing a dagger into his or her own skull would somehow not result in death.

[Samias]

FE10 was a case where innate skills had an effect on plot, though. Volug in particular was in half-shift through all of part 1. Micaiah's Sacrifice is a major plot point. Galdrar are important as both a gameplay skill and a plot coupon. Aether was also a significant skill in the plot, and is also significant in FE13 as a signature move of the Lord class. Astra is seen as the skill of a peerless swordsman (Stefan always joins with it). Some qualities of a character do carry over from plot to gameplay.

[Othin]

The only thing I'm "encouraging" is plot quality and consistency. "Magic does weird stuff" is not a justifiable reason for having an anything-goes approach to your story, especially when no one in the game treats skills as representative of reality. Do Krom and company ever bring up that, gee, maybe his sister is alive because she has miracle? Do they ever talk about using skills in the context of battle strategies? No. Because gameplay and plot are, unless otherwise specified, separate.

To be clear: if skills and plot are linked, as you're suggesting they are, then you'd have to concede a unit with miracle pushing a dagger into his or her own skull would somehow not result in death.

So, unless specifically explained otherwise, a Thief cannot open locks, a Pegasus Knight cannot cross harsh terrain, an Assassin cannot assassinate an enemy, a Cavalier cannot advance faster than a Myrmidon, a General is not especially resistant to physical attacks, and a Swordmaster is not especially skilled at using a sword. Got it.

And if any of those are possible, than the implications must be perfectly understood and consistent in all circumstances, because Krom must have known his sister's precise abilities and that they could save her from such a death: otherwise those abilities must not exist or not apply in that situation, period.

And no, I'd have to conclude that a character pushing a dagger into his or her own skull might not result in death, and that's a conclusion I have no qualms about making. We know that Miracle only activates sometimes, not all the time. What we do not know is whether or not it could leave consequences such as brain damage and whether or not it would apply if the character wants to die in the first place.

[Westbrick]

So, unless specifically explained otherwise, a Thief cannot open locks, a Pegasus Knight cannot cross harsh terrain, an Assassin cannot assassinate an enemy, a Cavalier cannot advance faster than a Myrmidon, a General is not especially resistant to physical attacks, and a Swordmaster is not especially skilled at using a sword. Got it.

You're being needlessly stubborn. Skills have nothing to do with Pegasi being able to fly, or horses having more movement than footsoldiers, or generals wearing heavy armor. These are elements that adhere to the logic of the story as well as the gameplay. Having a priestess survive a mortal blow makes sense in the context of gameplay, but having her fall off a twenty-story cliff and surviving makes no sense in the context of story. Going back to FFVII, it's synonymous with being able to survive being shot dozens and dozens of times with only small chip damage, but being killed through stabbing.

In JRPGs, story and gameplay are never tied together by default.

And if any of those are possible, than the implications must be perfectly understood and consistent in all circumstances, because Krom must have known his sister's precise abilities and that they could save her from such a death: otherwise those abilities must not exist or not apply in that situation, period.

I agree. And the benefit of skills in the context of the game's actual world (external to gameplay) is never brought up, ever. Given that we do need to follow consistency, what makes you so sure that having a miracle skill means being able to survive a twenty-story fall?

And no, I'd have to conclude that a character pushing a dagger into his or her own skull might not result in death, and that's a conclusion I have no qualms about making. We know that Miracle only activates sometimes, not all the time. What we do not know is whether or not it could leave consequences such as brain damage and whether or not it would apply if the character wants to die in the first place.

Props for biting the bullet. Still a number of problems with this position, most notably the one I just mentioned: that skills and story are never linked in the context of dialogue, in this game or in other games. It's not like Cloud and Aeris ever had a conversation about how strange it is that they can survive getting shot all the time.

EDIT: Worth pointing out that I don't actually know the game's script and am just making educated guesses based off of past FE titles and what little I know about this game. If a link between gameplay skills and reality is somewhere intimated in FE13, then please let me know so I can correct myself.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Westbrick

[Folt]

You're being needlessly stubborn. Skills have nothing to do with Pegasi being able to fly, or horses having more movement than footsoldiers, or generals wearing heavy armor. These are elements that adhere to the logic of the story as well as the gameplay. Having a priestess survive a mortal blow makes sense in the context of gameplay, but having her fall off a twenty-story cliff and surviving makes no sense in the context of story. Going back to FFVII, it's synonymous with being able to survive being shot dozens and dozens of times with only small chip damage, but being killed through stabbing.

In JRPGs, story and gameplay are never tied together by default.

This is Fire Emblem though. As the series continued, gameplay and story got more closely integrated as much as they got set apart.

I agree. And the benefit of skills in the context of the game's actual world (external to gameplay) is never brought up, ever. Given that we do need to follow consistency, what makes you so sure that having a miracle skill means being able to survive a twenty-story fall?

Props for biting the bullet. Still a number of problems with this position, most notably the one I just mentioned: that skills and story are never linked in the context of dialogue, in this game or in other games. It's not like Cloud and Aeris ever had a conversation about how strange it is that they can survive getting shot all the time.

EDIT: Worth pointing out that I don't actually know the game's script and am just making educated guesses based off of past FE titles and what little I know about this game. If a link between gameplay skills and reality is somewhere intimated in FE13, then please let me know so I can correct myself.

Ways that past Fire Emblems have integrated gameplay and story:

FE4: Blood and inheritance. (Lopto blood in particular.)

FE6: Douglas will not attack his own daughter, I believe.

FE7: Eliwood or Hector, depending on if you choose Eliwood's story, or Hector's story, can't promote using Heaven Seals. This is actually pointed out, I believe. Latter, they get a Heaven Seal that does in fact promote them. I don't know if they promote even if they're under lv. 10, but since that Heaven Seal is implied to be pretty special, I wouldn't be surprised if it did. There's also Pent who starts with good bases (he's the Mage General of Etruria in that game, correct me if I'm wrong), and Nino who is of the Est archetype (she lacks experience, but is actually a magical prodigy according to supports with Erk).

FE8: L'Arachel is born lucky. If you level her 20/20, her Luck stat is expected to max out before she reaches her promoted level cap. Knoll has had heaps of bad luck, and he initially assumed his execution date was moved up when you find him in Ephraim's story. His Luck in Ephraim's story start out at 0 expectedly, and in Eirika's story, he still has possibly the lowest luck of all the Sacred Stones characters (as well as his Luck stat being generally bad).

FE9: The Black Knight and Ashnard's armors in this game is blessed. This is represented by a skill. In addition, Stefan starts out with the Swordmaster mastery skill Astra, and he is very skilled with the sword in-universe. Additionally, in this game Daunt is an enemy only skill that decreases hit rate and critical hit rate. It is implied that this is because enemies fear you, and the enemies that possess this skill are indeed quite fearsome.

FE10: Micaiah and her Sacrifice skill. It's described as a miraculous healing ability that sacrifices Micaiah's life force. It damages Micaiah's HP, but allows her to use that HP to heal another unit. It also heals status effects. In addition. In Path of Radiance, Sothe states that he's looking for someone whom he cares for very much. In this game, you find out that it is Micaiah, and they start with an A Support and Bond.

FE11-12: Frey is the canonical sacrifice in the tutorial. The Aum Staff cannot revive him.

This is because he's not really dead, as revealed in FE12. He was merely beat up and left for dead. He was rescued later.

So... Fire Emblem: Awakening.

Valhart conquered about the entire continent of Varm. He appropriately has the skill Conqueror, which negates beast and armor weaknesses. Given that armor- and beast-slaying weapons could potentially have cut him down, efficiently ending his quest for conquerance, and because Valhart believes in a world ruled by the strong, he would want to minimize his weaknesses as much as possible to ensure that Varm would be successfully conquered.

Inverse was brainwashed by Fauder into serving him because of a power she possesses. It is highly likely that Dark Blessing is intended to represent her power.

Brady mentions in his supports that he started out as a Priest. That accomodates for the fact that units can class change.

So Emelina surviving because of Miracle doesn't really seem that far-fetching to me. In fact, Emelina surviving was truly a miracle in itself. I could believe that her amnesia could be attributed to miracles only going so far...

I would note that I got most of these from TV Tropes, though some are made from my own uneducated guesses and assumptions, as well as info I found on this board.

[Westbrick]

Note that Othin and I have agreed to disagree about this particular topic of conversation, but I'm more than happy to continue it with other users.

This is Fire Emblem though. As the series continued, gameplay and story got more closely integrated as much as they got set apart.

To a degree. Every RPG has places where gameplay and plot coincide; it's unavoidable. But to have an intersection in such a major place (like a skill as farfetched as Miracle) would be rather unprecedented.

The examples you give from the earlier FE titles fall into the heading of "minor intersections." Thinks like altering enemy AI slightly to fit the narrative, having stats and growths roughly approximate a character's traits / personality, not letting lords promote until a certain point, etc. Nothing as major as incorporating Miracle or Lightning Speed into the context of plot. So let's jump to FE13.

So... Fire Emblem: Awakening.

Valhart conquered about the entire continent of Varm. He appropriately has the skill Conqueror, which negates beast and armor weaknesses. Given that armor- and beast-slaying weapons could potentially have cut him down, efficiently ending his quest for conquerance, and because Valhart believes in a world ruled by the strong, he would want to minimize his weaknesses as much as possible to ensure that Varm would be successfully conquered.

Inverse was brainwashed by Fauder into serving him because of a power she possesses. It is highly likely that Dark Blessing is intended to represent her power.

Brady mentions in his supports that he started out as a Priest. That accomodates for the fact that units can class change.

So Emelina surviving because of Miracle doesn't really seem that far-fetching to me. In fact, Emelina surviving was truly a miracle in itself. I could believe that her amnesia could be attributed to miracles only going so far...

Your Conquerer example makes little sense to me, since it seems like the skill is more symbolic of his power as a ruler and less "gives him broken, superhuman magical powers" (remember that x3 effective bonuses are also gameplay mechanics). This would fall into the stats-mimic-personality category laid out earlier. Same with Inverse. Same with Brady.

Let me make clear what, exactly, I'm talking about. Valhart's personality is that of a conquerer, so having skills and stats that reflect this domineering personality is appropriate. L'Arachel is a lucky lass, so having maxed luck fits this personality. But what possibly justifies having Emeline fall from a twenty-story high cliff and survive simply because she has some gameplay skill? L'Arachel's luck is talked about in-game; Valhart's dominant presence and military prowess are (presumably) talked about in-game; when does your party have a chat about how Miracle lets a unit survive any mortal injury?

[NeonZ]

To be clear: if skills and plot are linked, as you're suggesting they are, then you'd have to concede a unit with miracle pushing a dagger into his or her own skull would somehow not result in death.

I've seen on news a suicide "attempt" that involved a knife on the head and the guy surviving. So, yeah, even not counting magic, one can survive that. Add magic, and I don't see why it's such an impossible concept.

You likely won't see specific playable character skills brought up in Awakening's dialogue due to how variable the skill sets of the playable characters are - there are even some support convos where the characters only say that they -started- as x class, due to the possibility of reclassing, but FE has often mentioned gameplay mechanics in dialogue. It's very different from Final Fantasy in that sense.

Edited July 5, 2012 by NeonZ

[Book of Ereshkigal]

But... Emelina doesn't even have Miracle?