To prove Titania hogs exp

[Chiki]

Not talking about Endgame. Would you give Marcia 100% of your BEXP when she joins? Why not? Because after she promotes in midgame and reaches high enough stats to kill Muarim, it's not worthwhile to give her more experience straight away (because it could also go to Oscar or Kieran or Mist). And obviously if she's blessed, she reaches that point earlier.

I don't understand your point. I'd give Marcia just enough exp to promote, but that isn't 100% of my bexp. After that point, Marcia is never getting bexp again.

You can't hold that against Marcia. While it may take experience from Oscar and Kieran, it's necessary if you want the absolute minimum turns possible. And thanks to that bexp, she saves dozens and dozens of turns. That number might even be around 40.

After earlygame, Titania can't save any and it's a complete and utter waste to train her. This Marcus/Seth/Titania obsession has got to stop. Are they great? Yes, but they can't do everything. Other units need to get experience if you want to be efficient.

I think the problem with tier lists is too much theory going on and little practical evidence. Even Mekkah, who I know for a fact has never played the Gamecube/Wii ones due to lacking the consoles (admittedly this was a few years ago), somehow has a lot of say on what goes with such tier lists. It's preposterous.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Aeine

[Lord Raven]

Seth can do almost everything by himself. There's no Titania obsession, btdubs, if there are a lot of people backing you in this Marcia/Jill > Titania argument. You're exaggerating something that doesn't exist. People wouldn't be arguing with you so harshly if you didn't stop saying shit like that and attacking this section of the fandom for "Titania worship." There's a much, MUCH better way of getting your point across and it's definitely not that.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Lord Raven

[Chiki]

Seth can do almost everything by himself. There's no Titania obsession, btdubs, if there are a lot of people backing you in this Marcia/Jill > Titania argument. You're exaggerating something that doesn't exist. People wouldn't be arguing with you so harshly if you didn't stop saying shit like that and attacking this section of the fandom for "Titania worship." There's a much, MUCH better way of getting your point across and it's definitely not that.

Show me where I attacked the fandom. Quote me.

Incidentally, there are some people that actually either agree with me or think the Titania worship is excessive.

The whole "we should worship Marcus/Seth/Titania and the ground they walk on" worship is getting out of hand. They're good, but I wish people would just tone it down. It'd be like if Smogon constantly went on and on about how SB Blaziken destroys OU and how that's awesome.

I agree that the hyperbole that people use to describe them can get excessive: especially FE9 Titania who, while good and arguably the best character, is not even close to being in a league of her own.

Let the fellow do the playlog in peace.

I disagree with the position, but honestly, if one of you were dropped onto a desert forum where the natives still sacrificed Jeigans to their giant stone Nino idols, you'd try to say something about it as well.

I have to agree with Banzai. What does it say that we're hellbent on refusing to accept something when the person arguing it is willing to put in the time and effort to demonstrate it for the sole purpose of demonstrating it? If his conclusion supports his hypothesis, we'll have something to think about. From there, we can inspect his data, test it further, and come to a more generalized conclusion. If his conclusion doesn't support his hypotesis, I hope he's willing to accept that he was wrong.

I don't agree with the hypothesis, but challenging general beliefs is part of discovering new things.

That said, good luck, and I kind of hope you disprove your argument so I can keep dickriding Titania :P

If someone told you 2 + 2 = 5, would you say they're wrong or re-examine your math to be sure it is actually 4?

I mean, sure, he can go ahead and do it if he wants, I don't think anyone cares to stop him, but we are where we are today because we got past the idea he's trying to prove. We've done the math and checked it twice. Re-examining his argument is only taking steps back and he's got a hell of a mission on his hands if he wants most people here to even consider the possibility of his argument being valid.

I'll give him credit for his approach, though. He is at least thinking under a more modern mindset (no "Nino is da best"-type bullshit), isn't being too childish in his responses, and is taking a serious, legitimate approach to defend his point with this playthrough. That at least makes it worth watching out for.

From a purely LTC standpoint, I could see where he's coming from.

I don't think we should be so quick to disregard what he's saying since most of us don't play pure LTC.

Aeine's theory is 100% correct. When playing for Maximum LTC, Titania just does not save any turns past Chapter 11, therefore, using her will actually "rob" other units of Cexp. She gets a tiny fraction of the Cexp that Oscar and Kieran get and she simply cannot rescue drop Mordy like they can. Lets look at each Chapter past 11.

12- Super Marcia flys out to the boss. Tits not necessary.

13- Defend map. can be done early in 7 turns. Tits not necessary.

14- Marcia go! Tits not necessary.

15- See above

16- Marcia takes Ike to the throne. Tits is only needed to get the full guard. No combat needed. Just her rescue, canto, and movement.

17- Lots of Marcia shove chains. Oscar and Kieran can rescue Mordy, Tits cant.

18- Hello Tanith, Stoned Reyson escorted by Marcia, Oscar, Kieran, and Tanith charge. Tits is the "odd man out"

19- Super Marcia 1 turn clear. Tits not necessary.

20- Siege tome the boss, Marcia arrives. Tits not necessary.

Shall I go on? When is Titania necessary for LTC past 11???

[Snowy_One]

Gee. Nice to know my dislike of Titania was worth mentioning.

[Chiki]

My bad Snowy.

Chapter 12: 560 points > 411 points

Kieran from level 13 to level 14

Mist from level 1 to level 2

Ike from level 8 to level 9

Mia from level 10 to level 11

Ilyana from level 9 to level 10

Chapter 13: 611 points > 414 points

Ike from level 9 to level 10

Ilyana from level 10 to level 11

Mia from level 11 to level 12

Chapter 14: 514 points > 482 points

Ike from level 10 to level 11

Chapter 15: 782 points > 542 points

Mia from level 12 to level 14

Ilyana from level 11 to level 1

Mist from level 2 to level 3

Ike from level 11 to level 12

[Lord Raven]

Show me where I attacked the fandom. Quote me.

"Titania Worship", like we're all drones or there's a circlejerk specifically for Titania or some shit.

Incidentally, there are some people that actually either agree with me or think the Titania worship is excessive.

Yep, you quoted a good majority of the people who post on this section of the board. So where is this Titania worship that you are complaining about?

Incidentally, you didn't quote me when I said that I agreed with your content and not your approach.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Lord Raven

[Rapier]

Titania is never a waste. I've played FE9 without her once because I disliked Jeigans and now I'm playing FE9 using Titania (until Ike's promotion). Everyone is doing great and they're as good as my last units from my last playthrough.

So what if Marcia and Jill can ferry units better than Titania? She is still a solid and reliable unit. Even with promoted Oscar, 9 movement is still great (although I admit it becomes obsolete after Ike's promotion). Just make sure you're -not- giving her all the EXP and tend to the other characters.

It's more of a how you use her.

[Anouleth]

I don't understand your point. I'd give Marcia just enough exp to promote, but that isn't 100% of my bexp. After that point, Marcia is never getting bexp again.

Making her unable to put limited experience to worthwhile use, making her an EXP hog. The fact that she took experience in the past and will take some in the future doesn't change the fact that she fits your definition of an EXP hog perfectly.

You can't hold that against Marcia. While it may take experience from Oscar and Kieran, it's necessary if you want the absolute minimum turns possible. And thanks to that bexp, she saves dozens and dozens of turns. That number might even be around 40.

After earlygame, Titania can't save any and it's a complete and utter waste to train her.

But that's not in your definition. Athos cannot put EXP to any use, ever. But obviously he is still worth giving kills to. In the same way, even though Marcia is worth giving kills after she promotes, she is still an EXP hog! The two are not the same, according to your definition.

I think the problem with tier lists is too much theory going on and little practical evidence. Even Mekkah, who I know for a fact has never played the Gamecube/Wii ones due to lacking the consoles (admittedly this was a few years ago), somehow has a lot of say on what goes with such tier lists. It's preposterous.

So basically, tier lists disagree with you not because of a genuine difference in opinion on what makes a character "good" (which is a subject admitting a wide debate), but because we're uninformed. If you don't like the current list, make a new one with different criteria.

[Lord Raven]

I don't understand why you are complaining about Ike not hitting Level 20 when you are using both Mia and Ilyana. Ilyana doesn't really have much going for her until promotion (and a Soren that has the basics- finishing levels and doing his regular thing- performs just as well as her). Mia is basically the same unit as Ike up until after promotion, except Mia is less durable. In the end I just see a poor use of resources; Titania doesn't seem to have anything to do with it. Besides, you have the pacifist BEXP coming up.

[Chiki]

I don't understand why you are complaining about Ike not hitting Level 20 when you are using both Mia and Ilyana. Ilyana doesn't really have much going for her until promotion (and a Soren that has the basics- finishing levels and doing his regular thing- performs just as well as her). Mia is basically the same unit as Ike up until after promotion, except Mia is less durable. In the end I just see a poor use of resources; Titania doesn't seem to have anything to do with it. Besides, you have the pacifist BEXP coming up.

Yeah, just ignore that a well-trained Mia + Ilyana (or any other tough foot unit + mage) is necessary for 18, 22, 25, 27 and 28.

Regardless of whether you use Ilyana, Tormod or Soren, you're going to have to use bexp. In an efficiency playthrough, you have to use a Mage.

And a foot unit is going to be necessary for 25, where mounted units can't be used.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Aeine

[Lord Raven]

I'm just saying, you get tons of BEXP later on, if you're so worried about Ike not hitting Level 20 by a specific point why pour a bunch of resources into Mia and Ilyana right away instead of later?

[Chiki]

I'm just saying, you get tons of BEXP later on, if you're so worried about Ike not hitting Level 20 by a specific point why pour a bunch of resources into Mia and Ilyana right away instead of later?

1. Ike needs to get a really high level (high enough to one round Generals with the Regal Sword) by 21 in order to 4-turn it.

2. Mist needs to get a high magic stat for Rescue uses after Chapter 20.

BEXP stops being a problem at around Chapter 25.

[Paperblade]

If someone told you 2 + 2 = 5, would you say they're wrong or re-examine your math to be sure it is actually 4?

I mean, sure, he can go ahead and do it if he wants, I don't think anyone cares to stop him, but we are where we are today because we got past the idea he's trying to prove. We've done the math and checked it twice. Re-examining his argument is only taking steps back and he's got a hell of a mission on his hands if he wants most people here to even consider the possibility of his argument being valid.

I'll give him credit for his approach, though. He is at least thinking under a more modern mindset (no "Nino is da best"-type bullshit), isn't being too childish in his responses, and is taking a serious, legitimate approach to defend his point with this playthrough. That at least makes it worth watching out for.

Nino being good was never seriously suggested in any tier setting, and in fact it was shown (in a ranked setting) that you could leave Raven on the bench from the point he joins until you get Nino and he would still be better.

Also I'm not sure what you mean by "modern," since "Titania > everyone" was accepted in 2007 at the latest and probably as early as 2006, which is quite a ways before any modern debaters were active.

[Chiki]

Nino being good was never seriously suggested in any tier setting, and in fact it was shown (in a ranked setting) that you could leave Raven on the bench from the point he joins until you get Nino and he would still be better.

Also I'm not sure what you mean by "modern," since "Titania > everyone" was accepted in 2007 at the latest and probably as early as 2006, which is quite a ways before any modern debaters were active.

How is Marcia/Jill not > Titania?

[Lord Raven]

1. Ike needs to get a really high level (high enough to one round Generals with the Regal Sword) by 21 in order to 4-turn it.

2. Mist needs to get a high magic stat for Rescue uses after Chapter 20.

BEXP stops being a problem at around Chapter 25.

You didn't answer my question. Ilyana and Mia are not needed until Chapter 18. You also get a BEXP dump in Chapter 17 if I recall correctly. Why are you so worried about Ike not reaching Level 20 by Chapter 18 while giving a bunch of resources to Ilyana and Mia? 17-3 is a great self-help chapter for these untis.

An Armorslayer does more damage than a Regal Sword, by the way, why not use that?

[Chiki]

You didn't answer my question. Ilyana and Mia are not needed until Chapter 18. You also get a BEXP dump in Chapter 17 if I recall correctly. Why are you so worried about Ike not reaching Level 20 by Chapter 18 while giving a bunch of resources to Ilyana and Mia? 17-3 is a great self-help chapter for these untis.

An Armorslayer does more damage than a Regal Sword, by the way, why not use that?

Why am I worried about Ike reaching level 20? Because I might not be able to 4-turn chapter 21.

1x General lv 3 (killer lance, vulnerary)

34 hp, 26 atk, 7 AS, 95 hit, 17 avo, 19 def, 10 res, 35 crit, 3 cev

1x General lv 4 (laguzslayer)

35 hp, 24 atk (33 eff), 7 AS, 103 hit, 18 avo, 20 def, 9 res, 6 crit, 4 cev

The Regal Sword has 14 might on both of them. I'd need around 23 strength (level 13 on average) to kill both of them. Fortunately, I have an Energy Drop, so that makes it level 8 on average.

I hope this finally makes you see that bexp isn't as common as you think it is.

Because my 4-turn strategy of Chapter 7 makes it impossible to get the Armorslayer.

[Paperblade]

How is Marcia/Jill not > Titania?

Don't give a shit about that, just here because people feel the need to misrepresent people that quit the community 3+ years ago to make themselves feel better about their dead lists based on a gameplay style that involves rote memorization of movements and "reset if you get unlucky at this critical moment because we aren't adaptable"

Edited July 30, 2012 by Paperblade

[Lord Raven]

and paperblade continues to moan about something that is pretty much irrelevant to the entire conversation at hand, and then misrepresents the gameplay style the current list is based off of. nothing's going to change, is it

Why am I worried about Ike reaching level 20? Because I might not be able to 4-turn chapter 21.

No, that is not my question. My question is why you keep putting resources into Ilyana/Mia so early IF a) they don't become useful until later and b) you have a time crunch.

I hope this finally makes you see that bexp isn't as common as you think it is.

The way you're using it must be some shit then because I haven't had any problems with BEXP with a much larger team. On top of that, I don't see how Titania is even relevant to any of this.

You also have 1060 BEXP more or less given to you in Chapter 15. I don't see what you're complaining about. You have another 700 after Chapter 17 and 400 in 16. You're telling me this isn't enough BEXP?

Edited July 30, 2012 by Lord Raven

[Chiki]

The way you're using it must be some shit then because I haven't had any problems with BEXP with a much larger team. On top of that, I don't see how Titania is even relevant to any of this.

*sigh* So many people have called you out on this, I give up. I'm through convincing you that your efficiency playthrough is completely different.

[Lord Raven]

In order to convince someone you actually need to say more than just "my run is different to yours." My Ike still only has 2 levels on your Ike and you are still using a much smaller team (this is post-Stealth BEXP mind you! So don't even bring that up), so I still don't see what you're complaining about. The original point was "you WILL have enough for Ike if my run's of any consolation" and guess what? I had a Level 18 Ike by Chapter 17, he got two levels in chapter 17 (and I have one turn less than the minimum, and that was on 17-2 because of some bullshit with position). You are worried about nothing, and you will have plenty of BEXP. Stop saying that my run has a different goal, because it doesn't matter how different a goal I've got when I'm talking to you about basic resource allocation.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Lord Raven

[bottlegnomes]

Nino being good was never seriously suggested in any tier setting, and in fact it was shown (in a ranked setting) that you could leave Raven on the bench from the point he joins until you get Nino and he would still be better.

Also I'm not sure what you mean by "modern," since "Titania > everyone" was accepted in 2007 at the latest and probably as early as 2006, which is quite a ways before any modern debaters were active.

Do you happen to have a link to that discussion? It sounds really interesting.

In order to convince someone you actually need to say more than just "my run is different to yours." My Ike still only has 2 levels on your Ike and you are still using a much smaller team (this is post-Stealth BEXP mind you! So don't even bring that up), so I still don't see what you're complaining about.

You used different strategies. Your PT wasn't the minimum TC. This is only concerned with the current absolute minimum TC. They're very different.

[Lord Raven]

And I've brought up how in many aspects that does not matter in the slightest in terms of actual math. I also stealth edited my post.

Do you happen to have a link to that discussion? It sounds really interesting.

I don't think there's much of a discussion, compare his base stats to Nino's and look at all of the enemies Nino would tink in chapter 29- Raven could kill some of them quite easily, whereas Nino needs a lot of help. Edited July 30, 2012 by Lord Raven

[Paperblade]

Do you happen to have a link to that discussion? It sounds really interesting.

I'm pretty sure it was on FEFF, which is long since dead and seems to have deleted their archives (?). The general idea was "both are bad but start at the same level (relevant to EXP rank) and Raven has better combat"

edit: on topic, technically your playthrough shouldn't prove anything because anecdotal evidence

Edited July 30, 2012 by Paperblade

[Chiki]

I'm pretty sure it was on FEFF, which is long since dead and seems to have deleted their archives (?). The general idea was "both are bad but start at the same level (relevant to EXP rank) and Raven has better combat"

edit: on topic, technically your playthrough shouldn't prove anything because anecdotal evidence

This playthrough is an example of near-perfect play and as good as it gets. That would only be true if I went on about how blessed my units were.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Aeine

[bottlegnomes]

And I've brought up how in many aspects that does not matter in the slightest in terms of actual math. I also stealth edited my post.

Missed the edit :P Anyway, different strategies means that your Ike could have gotten more EP exposure. There are numerous other things. So unless you can give a turn by turn and Aeine can give a turn by turn, so we can see what differences there are, they can't be compared. Plus what Paper said.

I don't think there's much of a discussion, compare his base stats to Nino's and look at all of the enemies Nino would tink in chapter 29- Raven could kill some of them quite easily, whereas Nino needs a lot of help.

Nino also attack res, which is better for every chapter but CoD and has ranged attacking. Actually, thinking about it, ranged wouldn't really matter as neither should be taking a counter since they should be killing the enemy for max exp. Then Raven's fairly more durable so he could actually see some exposure on EP. Makes sense.

I'm pretty sure it was on FEFF, which is long since dead and seems to have deleted their archives (?). The general idea was "both are bad but start at the same level (relevant to EXP rank) and Raven has better combat"

Anyway, like I said above, makes sense now that I look at their stats.