To prove Titania hogs exp

[Florete]

Nino being good was never seriously suggested in any tier setting, and in fact it was shown (in a ranked setting) that you could leave Raven on the bench from the point he joins until you get Nino and he would still be better.

Who cares about tier settings? We've all seen the newbies who think Est-type units are great.

Also I'm not sure what you mean by "modern," since "Titania > everyone" was accepted in 2007 at the latest and probably as early as 2006, which is quite a ways before any modern debaters were active.

That being still active today and the way he's going about his argument using turns.

For Aeine, as far as I can tell, the only reason I've seen you provide that Kieran and Oscar desperately need so much experience is for how quick of a 17-2 clear? How is this done and how much faster is it than the otherwise best strategy?

[Chiki]

For Aeine, as far as I can tell, the only reason I've seen you provide that Kieran and Oscar desperately need so much experience is for how quick of a 17-2 clear? How is this done and how much faster is it than the otherwise best strategy?

It's a turn faster, but it's the only turn cut I mentioned because it's like it was almost specifically made by the game designers to choose Kieran/Oscar over Titania.

Anyway, there are a few more things they really help with. There's Chapter 18, where I hear a 5-turn may be possible with a strong Kieran, Oscar, Marcia and Tanith and Chapter 21, to help with enemies that charge towards you (and, in my strategy, protect Reyson). There's Chapter 27 where Kieran needs a ridiculous amount of strength to KO Generals with the Tomahawk and get the Resolve with a Chest Key.

Anyway, my experiment is almost finished (at the chapter 17 base now) so I'll update the first post and post my data with some arguments added in too in a bit.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Aeine

[Florete]

In the end, this is sounding more like maximum efficiency. If Oscar and Kieran (and whoever else for later) need so much experience for a few specific strategies that Titania shouldn't even be used...well, that is at least not the way our tier lists work and not the way most people operate. While you may be right from a lowest-turn-count-possible perspective, I don't think it's going to change anything else.

[Chiki]

BEXP data:

Chapter 8: 1510 points > 1383 points

Ike from level 5 to level 6

Mia from level 6 to level 7

Boyd from level 5 to level 6

Oscar from level 8 to level 9

Chapter 9: 1433 points > 1370 points

Ike from level 6 to level 7

Oscar from level 11 to level 12

Mia from level 7 to level 8

Ilyana from level 6 to level 7

Chapter 10: 1670 points > 251 points

Marcia from level 5 to level 18

Chapter 11: 571 points > 68 points

Marcia from level 18 to level 1

Ike from level 7 to level 8

Oscar from level 13 to level 14

Ilyana from level 8 to level 9

Kieran from level 12 to level 13

Chapter 12: 560 points > 411 points

Kieran from level 13 to level 14

Mist from level 1 to level 2

Ike from level 8 to level 9

Mia from level 10 to level 11

Ilyana from level 9 to level 10

Chapter 13: 611 points > 414 points

Ike from level 9 to level 10

Ilyana from level 10 to level 11

Mia from level 11 to level 12

Chapter 14: 514 points > 482 points

Ike from level 10 to level 11

Chapter 15: 782 points > 542 points

Mia from level 12 to level 14

Ilyana from level 11 to level 1

Mist from level 2 to level 3

Ike from level 11 to level 12

Chapter 16: 1912 points > 1166 points

Marcia from level 6 to 7

Ike from level 12 to level 18

Chapter 17: 1566 points > 93 points

Ike from level 18 to level 20

Kieran from level 16 to level 1

Oscar from level 16 to level 1

As you can see from the final result of the experiment, Kieran and Oscar only barely managed to reach promotion while Ike barely managed to reach level 20--that was the "deadline," so to speak, for both of them. and they _just_ managed to reach it. At the base of Chapter 17, I was almost completely out of bonus experience.

Why is this such a big deal? Because it proves that using Titania is actually detrimental after a certain point in the game. Yes, while I wholeheartedly agree that Titania contributes greatly to earlygame chapters such as 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 and 7, there's a great problem in using her after these certain points. In fact, since Kieran, Oscar and Ike barely managed to reach their bare minimum requirements to get the lowest turns possible (maximum efficiency, which in my opinion is what debating should be about), it shows that there isn't much experience to go around. Therefore, a 9 move unit like Titania, who often charges and gets a lot of kills by herself due to her high stats, is only a negative after a certain point in the game.

After Chapter 11, Titania herself cuts no turns at all. She has a niche use in Chapter 16 to get the Full Guard, but that is not wholly necessary to finish a maximum efficiency playthrough but it gives you an easier time regardless. There is no need to even use her after Chapter 11 (with the exception of getting the Full Guard) because she cuts no turns at all. Why is this a negative, however? If it's not a positive, then why should it be a negative? Because Titania takes valuable experience from units like Kieran and Oscar.

Promoted Kieran and Oscar are necessary to get a 2-turn clear of 17-2. They are the only units who can, together, rescue-take-drop Mordecai who can achieve a 2-turn by Smiting Boots Marcia. Another reason why Kieran and Oscar have to be strong is for Chapter 18; as it is a rout chapter, they have to survive and kill as many enemies as possible in 5-6 turns with a transformed Reyson diamond, along with Marcia and Tanith. Kieran is maybe the only unit who can get the Resolve scroll in 3 turns on Chapter 27, as he can actually kill Generals with his high might Tomahawk, but he still needs a lot of strength to pull it off.

Why am I so anal about getting Ike to level 20? There are a lot of chapters where he needs to be really strong (have the highest stats possible) to survive Seize chapters. 21, for example, requires him to have 23 strength in order to KO Generals with a Regal Sword so they don't block his path to Ena. Another chapter is 23, where he needs to be really tank to survive a dozen enemy attacks and end the chapter in 4 turns (3 turns with Sonic Sword Ike, discovered by yours truly). Chapter 26, 28 and Endgame are all extremely important chapters as well, where Ike needs to have the highest stats possible.

Another problem with the lack of bonus experience in general is Mist. Mist needs to be at a really high level so her magic can become high enough to use Rescue effectively. As you can see, at the end of chapter 16, I had a level 3 Mist. I worry that I may not even be able to promote her by the time I get Rescue.

You may be wondering why I gave some bexp to Mia and Ilyana. First of all, before you think I wasted a lot of resources on them, I really didn't--they got most of that experience from battles, and I only finished those levels off with bonus experience. The amount I used on them is insignificant, maybe around 200-300 bexp in total, which isn't enough to have an effect on anything really. Why did I waste time training them, though? Because Mia and Ilyana make an excellent combo. Ilyana is necessary to get some crucial kills without RNG abuse (Chapter 22, 23, 25, 27 and 28) with siege tomes, and Mia helps that greatly simply by being around: her support gives her a hit bonus. Ilyana needs to have high stats to be able to one-round enemy units with siege tomes in Chapter 25. Mia needs to be trained as well; she's one of the few foot units that have decent enough stats to actually get kills in Chapter 25. As I'm bringing along Mia in every chapter for their support anyway, why shouldn't I give her a bit of bonus experience too, so she doesn't get killed? Mia and Ilyana don't get in Kieran, Oscar and Marcia's ways at all. They simply stay behind and get kills from the enemy units near the back. In my record-breaking playthrough of 119 turns, Mia actually got into the top 5, showing how useful she really is.

Hopefully, this will convince people that there isn't as much bonus and combat experience to go around as originally thought, and Titania is a negative after a certain point in the game.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Aeine

[Lord Raven]

I don't know about you but your resource allocations still must've been some shit because of this. To add onto this, he had only two turns more than you by the end of 17-4. And his team was either bigger than yours or around the same size as yours. This is not a strike against Titania; this is a strike against the way you're handling your BEXP.

I'm pretty sure it was on FEFF, which is long since dead and seems to have deleted their archives (?). The general idea was "both are bad but start at the same level (relevant to EXP rank) and Raven has better combat"

http://s11.zetaboards.com/Fusion/index/ here we go

In the end, this is sounding more like maximum efficiency. If Oscar and Kieran (and whoever else for later) need so much experience for a few specific strategies that Titania shouldn't even be used...well, that is at least not the way our tier lists work and not the way most people operate. While you may be right from a lowest-turn-count-possible perspective, I don't think it's going to change anything else.

And this is more or less the snag in my argument. I believe in all runthroughs Marcia/Jill will be better than Titania, but maximum LTC is not the way to approach it. Edited July 30, 2012 by Lord Raven

[Chiki]

1. He was training Tormod instead of a mage like Soren/Ilyana, which he admitted was a mistake. I even talked to the guy in private lol. That BEXP would've bit him in the ass later on. His team was even smaller than mine, and training Tormod instead of Soren/Ilyana would have been a disaster later on for him.

2. It wasn't 2 turns lol. His Chapter 6 took 5 turns, while his Chapter 7 took 6 turns. More like 3 turns, which can be incredibly significant due to CEXP gain.

It's like you've dedicated your life to proving me wrong. I'd like some other opinions on this as well.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Aeine

[Lord Raven]

That point means nothing to me if you don't post your levels. It also doesn't make sense that he'd get enough CEXP that he has a solid 2 levels on both Oscar and Kieran (Kieran isn't even around earlygame smh) compared to you. Chapter 6 CEXP is also nothing and Chapter 7 CEXP goes to Titania no matter how many turns it takes, as well.

His team wasn't smaller than yours.. he was putting exp into Astrid, Boyd, and Rhys. It don't matter that he wasn't using a mage like Soren/Ilyana, because he had two other units to give BEXP to. It baffles me that you got Ilyana to Level 20/1 so early, because you could easily give some the BEXP you used on her to Ike/Oscar/Kieran and then used the Chapter 18 BEXP on her.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Lord Raven

[dondon151]

It's like you've dedicated your life to proving me wrong. I'd like some other opinions on this as well.

aren't you a pot calling the kettle black

also i still don't understand the point of using ilyana. you listed her necessary for chapters in which calill exists. just use her instead.

and finally to prove this point:

Hopefully, this will convince people that there isn't as much bonus and combat experience to go around as originally thought, and Titania is a negative after a certain point in the game.

you need to recruit all of the characters in order to make this pertain to the tier list, otherwise you're just preaching to the choir

Edited July 30, 2012 by dondon151

[Chiki]

That point means nothing to me if you don't post your levels. It also doesn't make sense that he'd get enough CEXP that he has a solid 2 levels on both Oscar and Kieran (Kieran isn't even around earlygame smh) compared to you. Chapter 6 CEXP is also nothing and Chapter 7 CEXP goes to Titania no matter how many turns it takes, as well.

His team wasn't smaller than yours.. he was putting exp into Astrid, Boyd, and Rhys. It don't matter that he wasn't using a mage like Soren/Ilyana, because he had two other units to give BEXP to.

I'm getting told by someone else how my Chapter 6 and Chapter 7 attempts went? Honestly?

He was using Rhys as his main staff user instead of Mist (the guy even told me himself), and he was using Boyd instead of Mia. Astrid has Paragon and is ridiculously easy to train, and she was level 7 at the Chapter 17 base. Even I could do that. His team was smaller by one, and that is the Mage. He intended on using Tormod instead of Soren/Ilyana, but that would have lost him bexp and turns.

You seem to have some omniscient abilities that allow you to see everything that goes on, but I ask you to not peer inside my house and watch me in the shower.

also i still don't understand the point of using ilyana. you listed her necessary for chapters in which calill exists. just use her instead.

I use both.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Aeine

[Lord Raven]

I'm getting told by someone else how my Chapter 6 and Chapter 7 attempts went? Honestly?

You really suck at this whole reading thing. Just like last time, I'll have to break it down in bullet points to suit your learning style.

a) Most Chapter 6 and 7 clears rely entirely on Titania. You need a super powered Oscar/Ike/Soren/Boyd to do much with them. If they were super powered, then you wouldn't be having level issues, and you wouldn't be using Ilyana. So what conclusion do I make? Titania dominated.

b) I don't even know what your levels are in Chapters 6 and 7 so I don't know how the hell you can get me to counter that point. But there is no way Kieran lost 2 levels of CEXP or something (since that's about how many he had on you, if that) if he doesn't exist at that point, nor would Oscar have more than two levels worth of CEXP in 3 turns. That is just ridiculous and doesn't mathematically work out.

He was using Rhys as his main staff user instead of Mist (the guy even told me himself), and he was using Boyd instead of Mia. Astrid has Paragon and is ridiculously easy to train, and she was level 7 at the Chapter 17 base. Even I could do that. His team was smaller by one, and that is the Mage. He intended on using Tormod instead of Soren/Ilyana, but that would have lost him bexp and turns.

dondon covered a point that went over my head. But at the same time, you didn't cover my point of holding off a couple levels on Ilyana; because then that wouldn't make this entire ordeal such a strain on your BEXP, considering you have Chapter 18 BEXP to work with.

You seem to have some omniscient abilities that allow you to see everything that goes on, but I ask you to not peer inside my house and watch me in the shower.

Don't be an ass when you can barely understand my points.

[Chiki]

a) Most Chapter 6 and 7 clears rely entirely on Titania. You need a super powered Oscar/Ike/Soren/Boyd to do much with them. If they were super powered, then you wouldn't be having level issues, and you wouldn't be using Ilyana. So what conclusion do I make? Titania dominated.

I didn't need any of those "super powered units" to clear Chapter 7 in 4 turns. All I needed were averages. I don't need to get told by someone how to clear a chapter incorrectly.

Being super powered has nothing to do with Kieran and Oscar being able to promote.. regardless of being able to one round every unit they see, there just isn't enough cexp and bexp to go around.

You could at least have the decency to ask me "what were your strategies for chapter 6 and 7?" instead of arrogantly (incorrectly, might I add) assuming how I cleared the chapter.

b) I don't even know what your levels are in Chapters 6 and 7 so I don't know how the hell you can get me to counter that point. But there is no way Kieran lost 2 levels of CEXP or something (since that's about how many he had on you, if that) if he doesn't exist at that point, nor would Oscar have more than two levels worth of CEXP in 3 turns. That is just ridiculous and doesn't mathematically work out.

"I don't know how the hell you can get me to counter that point." Then why are you telling me how my chapter clears went? You think you know everything, but you don't.

dondon covered a point that went over my head. But at the same time, you didn't cover my point of holding off a couple levels on Ilyana; because then that wouldn't make this entire ordeal such a strain on your BEXP, considering you have Chapter 18 BEXP to work with.

My Ilyana is level 12. Do you not realize how far, still, that is from promotion?

I use both Calill and Ilyana for siege tome purposes. Chapter 22 requires two siege tome users to clear it without RNG abuse. Chapter 25, again, requires more than one.

[Lord Raven]

You could at least have the decency to ask me "what were your strategies for chapter 6 and 7?" instead of arrogantly (incorrectly, might I add) assuming how I cleared the chapter.

Or if I brought up the points you could just tell me your strategies to counter them instead of being an ass. If you want to counter the points and help prove me wrong then say them now instead of moaning.

My Ilyana is level 12. Do you not realize how far, still, that is from promotion?

It said Level 1 on the thing. I'm not sure if your run had Titania or not, but it's not unreasonable to say that your resource management sucked if someone else demonstrated a way to have Kieran/Oscar both promoted by then. Why not have a Demi Band Muarim as apart of that rescue drop chain?

I use both Calill and Ilyana for siege tome purposes. Chapter 22 requires two siege tome users to clear it without RNG abuse. Chapter 25, again, requires more than one.

It's not hard to get enough BEXP to BEXP Ilyana by that point. The 200-300 you used on Ilyana or Mia could go to Oscar/Kieran/Ike before them considering there is at least 1600 BEXP between Chapter 17 and 22, so you wouldn't be strapped for BEXP as much and therefore could actually make use of Titania.

[Hawk King]

Hey Raven, why dont you just do your own playthrough with identical turncounts to show Aeine how bad his resourse allocations are? Your whining is getting a little obsessive and really annoying.

Unless you can actually do it yourself and do it better, you really have no room to talk. And stop drawing conclusions from your 142 turn efficiency run. That is 24 turns higher, THEY ARE VERY DIFFERENT PLAYTHROUGHS.

[Lord Raven]

An argument with substance would be nice. I pointed out exactly where I could've done better in the 142 turns (it's not finished yet btw, 142 turns is the very highest it could possibly be right now) and I pointed out where I could've cut a supply of resources. With better planning, I would have 127 turns by endgame at the very most. I'm also using Gergeshwan (sp?)'s playthrough as a reference in arguments, and in the end Aeine's argument doesn't work to prove his point because people do not like the idea of absolute LTC/efficiency being the major part of an argument. Something everyone is failing to recognize. I worked through the basic math as well, and unless I know every single thing he did I have nothing to do but assume. In fact, if I was given more description than just BEXP, then I would stop and accept it. But frankly, 60+% of the responses to my points were all "you don't know SHIT becuase yo haven't done this runthrough."

If I don't know shit then I would definitely get a more detailed response in return, but instead I get a lot of unconstructive and crappy posts like yours, Hawk King, so I hope you finally understand now why I am responding the way I am.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Lord Raven

[eclipse]

I'm up for a detailed strategy on WHY BEXP is being used the way it is. Maybe Aeine has some new theory that no one else has seen? Or maybe his BEXP allocations need work. Seeing numbers with no strategy doesn't help.

[Toothache]

BEXP doesn't work in a vacuum, and this is the main fault of the premise Aiene seems to be working under, from what I can see. BEXP needs to work with the CEXP you gain for each unit, and perhaps in the case of Random Mode, whether blessed growths have occurred (a unit obviously doesn't need much BEXP if they've reached certain stat thresholds earlier than Fixed Mode/averages, for example), or even bad growths where more BEXP may be needed to compensate.

In order to get a complete picture of the effects of BEXP in a playthrough, you need to publish more detailed information than just the amount used at every chapter. Characters stats, levels, the amount of enemies they actually faced even, all complement the data and provide a wider and clearer picture either way.

[Chiki]

I'm up for a detailed strategy on WHY BEXP is being used the way it is. Maybe Aeine has some new theory that no one else has seen? Or maybe his BEXP allocations need work. Seeing numbers with no strategy doesn't help.

I'm pretty sure I gave reasons for using bexp the way I did at the conclusion...

[eclipse]

You'll need more detail than that. I'm thinking a chapter-by-chapter rundown on how you plan on using everyone.

[Anouleth]

BEXP data:

Chapter 8: 1510 points > 1383 points

Ike from level 5 to level 6

Mia from level 6 to level 7

Boyd from level 5 to level 6

Oscar from level 8 to level 9

Chapter 9: 1433 points > 1370 points

Ike from level 6 to level 7

Oscar from level 11 to level 12

Mia from level 7 to level 8

Ilyana from level 6 to level 7

Chapter 10: 1670 points > 251 points

Marcia from level 5 to level 18

Chapter 11: 571 points > 68 points

Marcia from level 18 to level 1

Ike from level 7 to level 8

Oscar from level 13 to level 14

Ilyana from level 8 to level 9

Kieran from level 12 to level 13

Chapter 12: 560 points > 411 points

Kieran from level 13 to level 14

Mist from level 1 to level 2

Ike from level 8 to level 9

Mia from level 10 to level 11

Ilyana from level 9 to level 10

Chapter 13: 611 points > 414 points

Ike from level 9 to level 10

Ilyana from level 10 to level 11

Mia from level 11 to level 12

Chapter 14: 514 points > 482 points

Ike from level 10 to level 11

Chapter 15: 782 points > 542 points

Mia from level 12 to level 14

Ilyana from level 11 to level 1

Mist from level 2 to level 3

Ike from level 11 to level 12

Chapter 16: 1912 points > 1166 points

Marcia from level 6 to 7

Ike from level 12 to level 18

Chapter 17: 1566 points > 93 points

Ike from level 18 to level 20

Kieran from level 16 to level 1

Oscar from level 16 to level 1

As you can see from the final result of the experiment, Kieran and Oscar only barely managed to reach promotion while Ike barely managed to reach level 20--that was the "deadline," so to speak, for both of them. and they _just_ managed to reach it. At the base of Chapter 17, I was almost completely out of bonus experience.

Why is this such a big deal? Because it proves that using Titania is actually detrimental after a certain point in the game.

No, she isn't. Modern tier lists run off gross utility (rather than net utility). Characters are not "detrimental" just because they are not as good as the best characters.

Yes, while I wholeheartedly agree that Titania contributes greatly to earlygame chapters such as 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 and 7, there's a great problem in using her after these certain points. In fact, since Kieran, Oscar and Ike barely managed to reach their bare minimum requirements to get the lowest turns possible (maximum efficiency, which in my opinion is what debating should be about), it shows that there isn't much experience to go around.

You're entitled to your opinion.

Therefore, a 9 move unit like Titania, who often charges and gets a lot of kills by herself due to her high stats, is only a negative after a certain point in the game.

So having a lot of movement and killing a lot of enemies is a negative? No wonder you like Mia so much.

Titania "often" charges? Titania does not do things on her own. She does not run off and solo the whole map while your back is turned. She "charges" as often as the player lets her charge, and every kill she gets is delivered to her from the hand of the player.

And this is another change of heart from you. I thought the "problem" with Titania was her lack of weight. Apparently now, it's having too much movement. And that she charges without orders?

You may be wondering why I gave some bexp to Mia and Ilyana. First of all, before you think I wasted a lot of resources on them, I really didn't--they got most of that experience from battles, and I only finished those levels off with bonus experience. The amount I used on them is insignificant, maybe around 200-300 bexp in total, which isn't enough to have an effect on anything really.

Wasn't the whole point of this thread to prove that BEXP and CEXP is really tight?

Why did I waste time training them, though? Because Mia and Ilyana make an excellent combo. Ilyana is necessary to get some crucial kills without RNG abuse (Chapter 22, 23, 25, 27 and 28) with siege tomes, and Mia helps that greatly simply by being around: her support gives her a hit bonus. Ilyana needs to have high stats to be able to one-round enemy units with siege tomes in Chapter 25. Mia needs to be trained as well; she's one of the few foot units that have decent enough stats to actually get kills in Chapter 25. As I'm bringing along Mia in every chapter for their support anyway, why shouldn't I give her a bit of bonus experience too, so she doesn't get killed? Mia and Ilyana don't get in Kieran, Oscar and Marcia's ways at all. They simply stay behind and get kills from the enemy units near the back. In my record-breaking playthrough of 119 turns, Mia actually got into the top 5, showing how useful she really is.

By your own admittance, Mia only cleared up reinforcements that didn't need to be killed anyway. Really, why not just use Soren instead of Ilyana? Soren certainly doesn't need to drag around a support partner to shore up his offensive stats. Even if he's a lower level than her, he'll usually still have the advantage in MAG/SKL/SPD.

Hopefully, this will convince people that there isn't as much bonus and combat experience to go around as originally thought, and Titania is a negative after a certain point in the game.

Then what the fuck is Mia, who has less of literally everything except speed?

[Chiki]

You'll need more detail than that. I'm thinking a chapter-by-chapter rundown on how you plan on using everyone.

Okay, I'll do that.

Chapter 1: Oscar and Titania rescue-take-drop Ike on turn 1 while Boyd tries to kill an enemy. Titania kills the boss, Oscar takes the Seraph Robe and Boyd takes the Steel Sword. Ike seizes.

Chapter 2: Oscar waits a little to the northwest to get some experience from enemies, while Ike, Boyd and Rhys charge east to get some experience. Oscar then helps out the trio on turn 2 while waiting for Titania. Titania charges to the boss area while the others get the remaining kills.

Chapter 3: Titania, Ike, Shinon and Gatrie charge to the boss area on turn 1. Ike gets the Hand Axe from the warrior and trades with Titania. On turn 3, Titania attacks the boss with the Hand Axe and kills him on the enemy phase. Gatrie gets the Elixir from the house and Ike talks to Marcia.

Chapter 4: TItania charges with the Iron Axe and kills the boss with the Hand Axe on turn 2. Ike tries to get some kills with Gatrie.

Chapter 5: Oscar, Boyd, Ike and Shinon go west while Titania and Gatrie take the south side by themselves. Titania gets the boss kill.

Chapter 6: Titania, Oscar and Ike charge down to the boss area from the left while Boyd tries to kill some soldiers. Oscar gets the boss kill.

Chapter 7: Oscar goes north and attacks the soldier guarding the Armorslayer chest with a Javelin, then goes north to kill the soldier and archer following Mia, and then a priest next to the boss. Titania charges west and kills the majority of the enemies on the west, then goes up and kills the knights with the Hammer on turn 3. Then she kills the knight guarding the boss and waits in front of the boss (Oscar trades the Iron Axe for her). Ike, Boyd and Soren get some kills on the west side (two mages and a knight) while Gatrie and Shinon take the upperwest side (getting a Ward).

Chapter 8: TItania clears the east side in 2 turns, then helps Ike and Boyd in the west side to recruit Ilyana. Oscar takes the south side all by himself and eventually gets the boss kill with Titania's help.

Chapter 9: Mia, Ilyana, Boyd, Mist and Rolf go west to get some experience, while Oscar and Titania charge to the boss area and clear some enemies. Oscar can't charge too far though, because he has to take Ike from Marcia and drop him off near the boss area at turn 6. Oscar gets the boss kill.

Chapter 10: TItania, Lethe, Oscar all go to the escape tile carrying Ike. Marcia recruits Kieran by unlocking the door. Not much happens in this chapter.. Ilyana and Mia try to get some kills from a soldier and some reinforcements, but they can only manage one or two.

Chapter 11: Titania and Marcia get Smited and Shoved respectively, and charge to the Arrive tile. On turn 2, Titania weakens the boss with a Short Spear for Oscar, Kieran, and maybe a rescued unit to kill. Turn 3, TItania kills the knight with a Hammer and Marcia Arrives. Mia, Ilyana, Ike, Boyd and Mist try to get some kills from the enemies at the beginning, while Volke by himself gets the Dracoshield.

Chapter 12: Not much to say here. The team gangs up on a couple ravens while Marcia gets the vast majority of the kills.

Chapter 13: Oscar and Kieran block the chokepoints while Marcia blocks another one, who also gets all the raven kills since she's the only one strong enough to. Anyone can kill the boss. Mia, Ilyana and Ike try to get some kills in the later turns while Volke and Sothe open all the chests. A good chapter to give them experience.

Chapter 14: Kieran and Oscar try to get the Laguz Lance on the west side, getting a few kills. Mia, Ilyana and Ike clear up a couple enemies on the north while Marcia charges to the boss area to kill the boss.

Chapter 15: Nothing to say here.

Chapter 16: Kieran carries Volke and Oscar carries Ike on turn 1. Titania gets shoved 3 tiles while Marcia gets shoved 1 tile and both kill a myrmidon and move the maximum number of tiles. Oscar hands Ike to Marcia and Kieran hands Volke to Titania. They both move as much as possible on turn 2. On turn 3, Titania drops Volke near the Full Guard room and Marcia drops Ike next to her. On turn 4, Titania gets the Full Guard with a Chest Key (Volke opened the door). Marcia kills the boss and Ike seizes. Ilyana, Oscar and Kieran try to get some kills from leftover enemies.

Chapter 17-1: Kieran west, Oscar east, and Marcia north. Not much to say here.

Chapter 17-2: Kieran-Oscar rescue-take-drop, Marcia arrives in 2 turns. Mia, Ike and Ilyana try to get some kills from enemies on the west.

Chapter 17-3: Good exp mine, not much to say here. Kieran, Oscar and Marcia go southeast while Mia and Ilyana and some others try to kill enemies at the starting point.

Chapter 17-4: One turn by Marcia.

Chapter 18: Kieran + Oscar + Marcia + Tanith get Vigored by transformed Reyson in this chapter and charge all the way to the ravens. Mia, Ilyana and Ike stay behind trying to get some leftover kills, maybe from reinforcements if they appear too. Ilyana can usually take the wyverns by herself with a forged Wind tome.

Chapter 19: Just a one turn.

Chapter 20: Mia and Ike try to get some kills south, while Kieran and Oscar charge to the Rescue staff place. Tanith and Marcia go straight to the boss area with Reyson's help, and arrive on turn 2. Ilyana and Calill kill enemies protecting the Smite house.

Chapter 21: You need a crapload of bonus experience for this chapter, because Ike needs to have 23 strength to clear it in 4 turns. Big reason why you shouldn't use Tormod, because he wastes it and Celerity isn't necessary for anyone. Marcia and Tanith carry Ike and Calill respectively to the boss area (Calill is the only one who can use siege tomes at this point). Ike can only kill the Generals blocking his path with 23 strength (he needs the Regal Sword). Marcia weakens the boss with a Laguz Lance and Calill gets the kill with a double Meteor with the help of Reyson.

Chapter 22: This is where Mia + Ilyana shines. In order to kill the boss without RNG abuse in 1 turn, you have to use 3 siege tomes in order to kill him. Mia gives Ilyana both a hit and offense boost to reliably kill the boss with Calill's help. You get Bolting right in this chapter.

Chapter 23: Marcia carries Ike to Petrine, where Ike needs to be tank to survive around a dozen attacks from enemies. Calill/Ilyana can also try to hit Petrine on turn 4 because Marcia can't one round her even with a forged Silver, but Mia's support with Ilyana makes her the more reliable option.

Chapter 24: Not much to say here, because no one does anything really. Kieran and Oscar go north while Mia, Ilyana and Ike try to get kills from the west. Marcia arrives on turn 3.

Chapter 25: The main reason why I trained Mia and Ilyana together. Ilyana and Calill a bunch of kills with siege tomes alone in this chapter, to get enemies Ike and Marcia can't one-round. The hit and attack bonus from Mia greatly help Ilyana. Mia is also excellent at killing cats, which Ilyana and Calill have trouble doing. Mia gets the majority of the kills on the west side, while Tanith and Largo get the majority of the kills on the east side. Marcia carries Ike, gets Vigored, and drops him off so he can kill the boss with a Killing Edge on turn 1, who would otherwise be annoying. The chapter is cleared in 3 turns.

Chapter 26: No one does anything special in this chapter except Marcia, who gets Shoved/Vigored carrying Ike to kill the boss on turn 3. Kieran, Oscar, Mia and Ilyana get some kills from charging enemies to the north.

Chapter 27: Another chapter where Ilyana shines, because the only way to 3-turn is with a siege tome use. Ilyana is the most reliable choice because of her hit support with Mia. Anyway, Marcia and Ike charge to the boss area, while Kieran and Oscar try to get the Resolve scroll in 3 turns. Kieran has to be absurdly powerful (be able to kill Generals with a Tomahawk) to get the Resolve scroll in 3 turns.

Chapter 28: This can be 2-turned, I suspect, with a sufficiently powerful Ilyana, who has to kill a dragon guarding the boss with Bolting on turn 2.

Endgame: Ike Resolve + Wrath rampage. That's all there is to it.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Aeine

[Lord Raven]

By the way, I was referencing Gergeshwan's playthrough, and I was pretty much correct. His Oscar was Level 8 going into Chapter 8; yours was Level 9 after using BEXP. Interestingly enough, you may only have one turn on him at the most, and while you claim you were barely using Ilyana or Mia then that really doesn't make sense as to why you barely hit Level 1 for Oscar/Kieran. His Ike was also Level 20/1 coming out of Chapter 17-4 and his Ike levels were on par or lower than yours as a whole. A lot of this may have been better use of CEXP, meaning your resource management was still not as optimal as you love to think it is.

To add onto that, his chapter 17 had Ike at Level 19, meaning that Ike got a level up in Chapter 17. I know I made use of chapter 17 to get Ike to Level 20, myself. Bitch and moan all you want, but your levels were on par with Gergeshwan's up until the midgame. At that point, there was no excuse for you other than using Ilyana and Mia. Even then, Gergeshwan had Boyd at a much higher level than both of them. On top of that, it's not like you're in a rush to get Ilyana/Mia up to par, since there is post-Chapter 17 BEXP to use which is a point you seem to be ignoring. It's not like either of them do anything but clear enemies (which you can always give to Ike given that you're in more of a rush to get him to Level 20; therefore you could have more BEXP to give Mia/Ilyana post-Chapter 18 lol)

[bottlegnomes]

Then fucking do it or shut up. Either explicitly do it using numbers (we have all the info you'd need to do it) or do your own playthrough where you get the same number turns and use resources better.

Anyway, the only real thing I have to say is are you killing every single enemy with different characters to the point where Titania taking even one kill after chapter 11 is a detriment to the levels of the rest of your party? I can see her being pointless, but saying she's a detriment seems extreme.

[Lord Raven]

Then fucking do it or shut up. Either explicitly do it using numbers (we have all the info you'd need to do it) or do your own playthrough where you get the same number turns and use resources better.

So you want me to go into detail even though the numbers are right there and there was a playthrough that demonstrated exactly what I'm talking about? I even brought up the numbers, by the way, so I don't know if you even read my posts anymore.

I can see her being pointless, but saying she's a detriment seems extreme.

I don't see why you told me to shut up then you said exactly the point I'm getting at. Edited July 31, 2012 by Lord Raven

[Chiki]

Anyway, the only real thing I have to say is are you killing every single enemy with different characters to the point where Titania taking even one kill after chapter 11 is a detriment to the levels of the rest of your party? I can see her being pointless, but saying she's a detriment seems extreme.

I think she's a detriment, but for the sake of my argument, I can concede that she's just pointless and not a detriment. What I want to accomplish is to let people see that Titania isn't worthy of the praise she gets.

[bottlegnomes]

Does Gerg have the same TCs as Aeine? Do you have the sake TCs as Aeine? No. Did you calculate how much cexp and bexp can be shifted around based on the strategies Aeine outlined? No, at least not to my knowledge. You kind of claimed you did, but you didn't actually post any numbers. So no, your point isn't valid. Difference is I'm asking Aeine a legitimate question. You're making up theories that say he's wrong. As for the post chapter 17 bexp, the only thing that would change is which characters you're cutting it close for, Ilyana and Mia or Oscar and Kieran. You're shifting the problem, not solving it.

Aeine, fair enough, though you do realize this won't have much of an effect because most people don't like the idea of absolute minimum LTC for the tier lists and the tier lists also assume everyone is recruited.