ScumbagJade Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 As for trainees in general, I find that babying units to the degree they require is often counterproductive, as you generally don't need units to scale up so ridiculously high to complete objectives. Andre is the exception to the trainees amongst this cast due to how early he joins and the fact that he's a mage unit and targets RES. A unit needs to be able to at least deal appreciable damage at first for me to use them. AN unarmed wall unit and a javelin and a handaxe can do wonders. Or ganging up on an archer and close ranging him constantly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT075 Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 You say that like I want to spend time letting the amazing 2 damage chip kill sonething Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScumbagJade Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 (edited) You say that like I want to spend time letting the amazing 2 damage chip kill sonething I say that like trainee units get a whopping 30 EXP per connected hit. And given how high the levels of trainees are compared to Vanilla FE, you can get them to level 10 off of ONE enemy unit. All in all its not that bad an investment of WHAT? a minute or two, animations off? I got Djambo to level 4 levels off of the very last knight in chapter 6 by simply letting him snipe an armor with a handaxe while Faratrass was unarmed and just standing there, blocking the snag bridge so he couldnt get to anyone else, or hit Djambo. No real time or effort wasted. Edited June 11, 2014 by ScumbagJade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nintales Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Well, regarding Garion, I think it's pretty hard to use him. He has as much strength as Cristoph on his joining chapter, more defense, and less speed. The +1 cons may allow him to better use steel axes, but it doesn't matter as long as Cristoph can double and ORKO things. He can't beat Menmus too for this one can fly, and, has a way better def stat. Djambo is just like him, except that he has to get four levels in order to be a little stronger. As for Schwartz, his luck is really low. He also has a bad durability, making him being 2HKOed by Steel Lance Soldiers on chapter 6. He is also wrecked by the Bow Armors. He can't ORKO Monks with steel sword at base, and if you are rigging crits for a character, you can't say him being worth it. (especially you, Sae'rah) I want to complain about Sae'rah. She should need either better base stats or one more level. The only way I got to feed her kills is by having her critting. She can't do real damages (just like Andre in chapter 2, but, at that time, enemies could be weakened easily), and is so hard to level up to end up being... not that great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
algae Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Those are the characters who will benefit most from skirmishes, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaz Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 (edited) I say that like trainee units get a whopping 30 EXP per connected hit. And given how high the levels of trainees are compared to Vanilla FE, you can get them to level 10 off of ONE enemy unit. All in all its not that bad an investment of WHAT? a minute or two, animations off? I got Djambo to level 4 levels off of the very last knight in chapter 6 by simply letting him snipe an armor with a handaxe while Faratrass was unarmed and just standing there, blocking the snag bridge so he couldnt get to anyone else, or hit Djambo. No real time or effort wasted. AN unarmed wall unit and a javelin and a handaxe can do wonders. Or ganging up on an archer and close ranging him constantly. Pretty much this. By the time I got to chapter 8 Sae'rah was able to easily hold things on her own so I was able to not use Hellios, Weiss (who was level capped for me) and puledra. I don't think that counter productive at all if she able to do that easily as a level 7 solider. I think I had to heal her twice. Also you do have a barrier staff too for them light mages. Also Brigands promote to Berserkers. did not know this. Edit: I just realized how to fix my problem with garion luck. I completely forgot about how many stat boosters Alfred throws at us. welp, time to do a 3rd playthrough just for this. Edited June 11, 2014 by Chaz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT075 Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 (edited) I say that like trainee units get a whopping 30 EXP per connected hit. And given how high the levels of trainees are compared to Vanilla FE, you can get them to level 10 off of ONE enemy unit. All in all its not that bad an investment of WHAT? a minute or two, animations off?I spend 30 turns leveling a unit... so he can kill things without help? Why not just level a unit who can already kill things without help? It's not like everyone else's stats are so inadequate that the only way to win is to bother there is a reason that vanilla amelia is so universally bad Edited June 11, 2014 by CT075 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScumbagJade Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 I spend 30 turns leveling a unit... so he can kill things without help? Why not just level a unit who can already kill things without help? It's not like everyone else's stats are so inadequate that the only way to win is to bother there is a reason that vanilla amelia is so universally bad It all depends on your playstyle. I merely am offering a way to train a unit. No matter how you slice it, unless you can One round an enemy, you pretty much need to the help of another unit to level another. its just a matter of how MUCH help the unit needs. I'm the sort of player who can manage EXP fairly well without wasting it, and by extension using an underleveled character with potential is a simple feat for me. But I can understand if some others would rather not do it, even though FE is a strategy game which takes some degree of patience and planning so.... Pretty much this. By the time I got to chapter 8 Sae'rah was able to easily hold things on her own so I was able to not use Hellios, Weiss (who was level capped for me) and puledra. I don't think that counter productive at all if she able to do that easily as a level 7 solider. I think I had to heal her twice. Also you do have a barrier staff too for them light mages. did not know this. Edit: I just realized how to fix my problem with garion luck. I completely forgot about how many stat boosters Alfred throws at us. welp, time to do a 3rd playthrough just for this. Garion will become a berserker. With his strength, skill and sturdy defenses, he will be a force to be reckoned with. I got my enforcer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT075 Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) i don't understand what "wasting exp" even means it's not like the exp disappears into the void if it goes to someone who's higher leveled, it goes to that unit unless "not wasting" you mean like literally squeezing every possible point of exp out of a single unit by having it chip things (for the 1 exp each) and then doing 1 damage to it repeatedly until it dies the reason that trainees are bad is that, with no effort they suck. with a little bit of effort, they are literally just equivalent to the mid-tier units of your army, which seems fine until you remember that most of said mid-tier units came gift-wrapped and required no effort whatsoever. and then, with a lot of effort, you get a unit that pretty much accomplishes nothing that you couldn't have accomplished with a different unit - and basically any other unit has a higher starting point Edited June 12, 2014 by CT075 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vennobennu Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Honestly, I don't think it would go amiss if Sae'rah joined at level 9 with the bases to match. She's pretty iffy for her join time as it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaruShion Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) Different strokes for different folks I suppose. Tiers and turn counts be damned, unless the unit is reaaaaaaally bad I will usually try to raise em. Guess I just like to watch most/every units grow if possible. Edited June 12, 2014 by HaruShion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScumbagJade Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) FE is like MY pokemon. GOT TO USE THEM ALL IN SOME SHAPE FORM OR FASHION!!! If not for support completion if nothing else. It is my personal belief that if you're "Good" at FE or attempt to boast at it, you should be able to use any unit type combination and beat the game. Its not like the games are impossible. With the RNG you are at the mercy of being screwed on a "good unit" or being blessed on a "bad unit". Dont matter who you use, you run a risk of some sort. Hell. on a hard mode run of FE6 back in the day, for some reason my Zealot ended up with 20 speed and 18 strength as well as 16 or so defense and hes considered WORSE than Marcus. In addition I did a low tier unit Hector Hard mode run and still pull through somehow. It all just comes down to a little RNG luck, and your own ability to plan, and overcome the games challenges... as well as the ones you place upon yourself, or not....Now I wonder what support combinations I can get when all this is done in Midnight Sun... oh the excitement... Edited June 12, 2014 by ScumbagJade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT075 Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) who the fuck considers themselves good at FE then manages to restrict themselves so much such that regular completion is difficult? O_o i don't even care about the rng; the games are beatable with growths turned off (from your anecdote i don't think you understand how character tiering works) Edited June 12, 2014 by CT075 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 While I'd normally agree with you, Cam, I suggest you play this hack, and tell me how that works out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT075 Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 hack talk- would anyone be interested in an LTC(ish) run of the game? i did a runthrough (normally) without really paying attention (yes i cheated and looked up some of the level solutions here sue me) and i need soemthing to do with my time once i finish SRW Z3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fateborn Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 i don't even care about the rng; the games are beatable with growths turned off (from your anecdote i don't think you understand how character tiering works) Unfortunately... you can't beat it with growth turned off. Kamon balanced the monsters to be as powerful as your own units. And the only unit that you could theoretically beat it with disappears from the party on chapter 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT075 Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 good thing i wasn't talking about this hack, then! (man i beat old!dof with growths turned off i'm sure i could math out a way to do this one) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fateborn Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Then you're welcomed to try then, but it'll be pretty difficult considering the layout of chapter 4... I'm sure you can do prologue to chapter 3 without much difficulty, and chapter 5 doesn't count lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siuloir Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) While I'd normally agree with you, Cam, I suggest you play this hack, and tell me how that works out. Unfortunately... you can't beat it with growth turned off. Kamon balanced the monsters to be as powerful as your own units. And the only unit that you could theoretically beat it with disappears from the party on chapter 8 Considering Cam's performance in the vaaastly more difficult DoF, I'm fairly certain he can pull it off. I didn't find Midnight Sun particularly difficult and I consider myself a mediocre player. Edited June 12, 2014 by Siuloir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vennobennu Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 I'd find an LTC run pretty interesting. You might consider going without Hellios after Chapter 1 though - he can pretty well smash most of the chapters by himself even when his Warp Sword breaks. (As for 0% growths, I can't think of any real sticking points - C7 and C8 might be tough, but not unbearably so) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 I'd find an LTC run pretty interesting. You might consider going without Hellios after Chapter 1 though - he can pretty well smash most of the chapters by himself even when his Warp Sword breaks. (As for 0% growths, I can't think of any real sticking points - C7 and C8 might be tough, but not unbearably so) I think 0% is doable on Normal, but it'll require significant Hellios abuse on Hard. Those skeletons can naturally double a lot of base characters, IIRC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siuloir Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 I think 0% is doable on Normal, but it'll require significant Hellios abuse on Hard. Those skeletons can naturally double a lot of base characters, IIRC. I thought Alfred said he hadn't balanced Hard yet and people should play Normal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Hard isn't balanced, but it's still playable. It means that certain characters become a real pain in the neck to use (hello Garion), but the enemy stats aren't so ridiculous that it's unbeatable. Now, if anyone wants to attempt a 0% run of this hack on Hard in its current unbalanced state, go for it. Much as I like this hack, I don't have the patience and planning to do something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancora Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) Hard isn't balanced, but it's still playable. It means that certain characters become a real pain in the neck to use (hello Garion), but the enemy stats aren't so ridiculous that it's unbeatable. Now, if anyone wants to attempt a 0% run of this hack on Hard in its current unbalanced state, go for it. Much as I like this hack, I don't have the patience and planning to do something like that. By 0% do you mean 0 rng abuse (aka save state mid chapter if my definition is correct)? If so then that will probably be a difficult challenge indeed. You'd have to heavily rely on the pre-promotes though I might try playing through in hard mode again and try not to get a chapter reset. Edited June 12, 2014 by Ancora Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaz Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) 0 pct growths. Not rng abuse. Edited June 12, 2014 by Chaz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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