Life's Character rating thread

[Espinosa]

tbh nobody besides Titania is very competent at ORKOing enemies at that point in the game. Shinon and Gatrie can do it more often than others, though, during the time they're available, Gatrie mostly due to a lot of enemies having 0 AS. Shinon is pretty much required for low-turning the early maps he is in, but you probably don't want him stealing Titania's bosskills. Nice tank/bait (with his ability) for the first defence map too.

[Life]

I feel very justified in finding Shinon unimpressive in earlygame.

Question. Who does ORKO like that? Titania? She's the obvious lone exception. Shinon is obviously nowhere from bad and if you find Shinon "unimpressive in earlygame", that means that Ike, Oscar and Boyd should be sitting at about... mediocre for a good third of their careers. Care to back that statement up too?

[Espinosa]

Question. Who does ORKO like that? Titania? She's the obvious lone exception. Shinon is obviously nowhere from bad and if you find Shinon "unimpressive in earlygame", that means that Ike, Oscar and Boyd should be sitting at about... mediocre for a good third of their careers. Care to back that statement up too?

Those three do have an enemy phase though. Send Oscar west on the second map and he solos, like, 2 Fighters and a Myrm and then catches up with the rest and helps them advance there. Shinon is limited to player phase when it comes to dishing out damage, unless you drop him at the tip of some Hand Axe users (like in his first map for a low-turn clear).

[Life]

Those three do have an enemy phase though. Send Oscar west on the second map and he solos, like, 2 Fighters and a Myrm and then catches up with the rest and helps them advance there. Shinon is limited to player phase when it comes to dishing out damage, unless you drop him at the tip of some Hand Axe users (like in his first map for a low-turn clear).

None have the durability for the enemy phase though, especially Oscar and Ike.

[Espinosa]

None have the durability for the enemy phase though, especially Oscar and Ike.

So you don't expose them to more than 2-3 enemies at once. It's better to weaken/KO a few enemies than have half a dozen of them gather around in circle without a chance to retaliate (which is a real danger for Shinon in Chapter 4 if you move him too far in). So even if Ike (Oscar and Boyd don't exist in that chapter) isn't endangered by Shinon's tanking capabilities, you're not making good use of your enemy phase and what's worse is that Shinon can't reach the boss because he's surrounded.

[Anouleth]

Question. Who does ORKO like that? Titania? She's the obvious lone exception. Shinon is obviously nowhere from bad and if you find Shinon "unimpressive in earlygame", that means that Ike, Oscar and Boyd should be sitting at about... mediocre for a good third of their careers. Care to back that statement up too?

Didn't you say in your very first post that Ike has a mediocre start?

[Life]

Didn't you say in your very first post that Ike has a mediocre start?

I said he had a crap start. Not even mediocre. Besides, I'm being consistent. Are you?

[aku chi]

None have the durability for the enemy phase though, especially Oscar and Ike.

Huh? Oscar has pretty solid durability. By Chapter 5, Oscar is likely to match Shinon's Def and trail HP by only 4-5.

I'd also like to demonstrate how poor Shinon's Steel Bow Atk of 18 is by listing when his contemporaries match his attack:

Titania with Javelin (her weakest weapon): immediately

Gatrie with Javelin (his weakest weapon): immediately

Boyd with Steel Axe: immediately

Boyd with Iron Axe: level 7

Oscar with Steel Lance: level 7-8

Oscar with Short Spear: level 9-10

Ike with effective Regal Sword: immediately

Ike with Iron Blade: level 9

Ike with Steel Sword: level 11

Soren with Wind vs. Generals (Def-Res gap: ~10): immediately

Soren with Fire vs. others (Def-Res gap: ~5): level 8

[Espinosa]

^ So it takes them quite a bit of time, then, or less than average conditions (effective damage or large def-res gap). Shinon's also doubling consistently with that Steel Bow, whereas Boyd's really weighed down by a Steel Axe, Gatrie may not double any enemies besides the 0 AS ones, and the rest take quite a few levels to reach the level of Shinon's offence -in one attack-, rather than a round of combat. Once they do reach said levels (assuming an LTC setting), -poof- Shinon's about gone from the party for a long while. So that just leaves Titania as a character with superior offence to Shinon's, with a big 'but' - she's soloing the maps when Shinon is stuck to one player phase attack in the majority of cases.

[Life]

I'd also like to falsely demonstrate how poor Shinon's Steel Bow Atk of 18 is by listing when his contemporaries match his attack:

Gatrie with Javelin (his weakest weapon): immediately Chapter 5 earliest and assuming that it's not on Titania

Boyd with Steel Axe: immediately Will not double

Boyd with Iron Axe: level 7 Chapter 7 earliest

Oscar with Steel Lance: level 7-8 Chapter 7 earliest

Oscar with Short Spear: level 9-10 Chapter 8 earliest

Ike with effective Regal Sword: immediately Needs to be effective

Ike with Iron Blade: level 9 Chapter 8 earliest

Ike with Steel Sword: level 11 Chapter 9 earliest

Soren with Fire vs. others (Def-Res gap: ~5): level 8 Chapter 8 earliest

With the exception of Titania and Soren vs. Generals, all of your examples are greatly exaggerated because you're only looking at the hard numbers. A Javelin on Gatrie assumes that it's not on Titania because the Short Spear drops at the tail end of Chapter 6. Boyd needs either level 7 (which will be like Chapter 7) or enough Spd to double (very rare at the start) to match. Oscar, Ike and Soren aren't matching until Chapter 7 at the very earliest, probably Chapter 8 and Ike using the Regal Sword is very dependent on the enemy (and Ike's defensive parameters which are garbage early).

You can't just throw out numbers without some context. In 3/4/5, Shinon is realistically matched by only Titania (she beats him). Maybe Boyd and Gatrie can match in Chapter 7 but Gatrie is unlikely (he needs the Javelin in the first place) and Boyd needs to not be Str or Spd screwed to pull it off. So let's go ahead and add Chapter 7 to the list of chapters where Shinon's 18 Att doesn't suck

[Anouleth]

Uh, Gatrie is definitely better than Shinon in earlygame. He 2HKOes everything under the sun, can double some enemies, and can do it all on enemy phase. Why does he even need a Javelin to "match" Shinon?

Also, your estimates for earlygame levels are really low. I had Ike and Boyd at level 9 and 8 at the end of Chapter 5, so there goes your level estimates.

[Espinosa]

If you want to progress as quickly as possible, Boyd isn't getting many kills until chapter 5, where it does take some effort to ensure the exp goes to the right units (since it's so much easier to just hold the chokepoints with Titania, Gatrie and Shinon). Don't forget that he's absent for 2 chapters, too. Ike at lv. 9 sounds more believable, though he has to do things like seize in chapter 1 and talk to Marcia in chapter 3, which limits his player phase (where he could pick up kills others missed).

[Lord Raven]

Shinon is great with provoke, prevents others from dying sometimes

[Colonel M]

Rhys got shafted. That's all you can say.

Ermehgerd I get the pun! Because he uses staves.

I like these. Keep doing them man.

[Rapier]

I don't think IS was stupid by letting Shinon appear 10 chapters later. If he stayed in the team with these stats, he'd be a Game Breaker from the beginning. As you said, his growths are better than Ike's. Using him on a long term would let him be one of the best units on the team, probably only rivalled by Ike himself. And -that- would be a stupid idea.

I wish he'd appear sooner, though. 10 chapters is a lot. Maybe 6 chapters would be enough.

[Colonel M]

I don't think IS was stupid by letting Shinon appear 10 chapters later. If he stayed in the team with these stats, he'd be a Game Breaker from the beginning. As you said, his growths are better than Ike's. Using him on a long term would let him be one of the best units on the team, probably only rivalled by Ike himself. And -that- would be a stupid idea.

I wish he'd appear sooner, though. 10 chapters is a lot. Maybe 6 chapters would be enough.

Doubtful. Shinon's base stats are good aside from the 9 Str. Provoke can also cause screwy AI, though that can be removed after Chapter 8.

The biggest problem is that Shinon is a Player Phase dependent foot unit. Considering that the mounted units steamroll this game to pieces already, Shinon would probably be left in the dust if he stayed throughout the team entirely. Though, he would be in a better position for a little while at least. Effective Mt only being x2 also kind of hurts him a bit more.

Edited December 28, 2012 by Tyranel M

[Rapier]

The biggest problem is that Shinon is a Player Phase dependent foot unit. Considering that the mounted units steamroll this game to pieces already, Shinon would probably be left in the dust if he stayed throughout the team entirely. Though, he would be in a better position for a little while at least. Effective Mt only being x2 also kind of hurts him a bit more.

So are mages. It's easy to use archers and work on a defensive formation, especially one that might ORKO virtually everything, like Shinon.

Oh wait, unless you mean OUR mounted units completely overshadow Shinon. Then I can understand this, in an efficiency matter.

Edited December 28, 2012 by Rapier

[Espinosa]

Mages do have an enemy phase; it's just in your best interest to limit it lest they die. In specific cases like Soren's, with his Ike support, he should dodge attacks pretty reliably too.

[Colonel M]

Mages also have access to siege tomes that help alleviate the problem of being unable to reach certain places.

[Samias]

I agree that Shinon should have disappeared for a bit so the player is more inclined to use the two other bow-locked characters who join in his absence but chapter 18 is an abysmal return point with Shinon's bases. He's so unlikely to have gained a level before he leaves that he's guaranteed to require babying with bexp on his return. He should have come back at say, chapter 14 (logically he wouldn't be able to join at 12 or 13), but I suppose the game wanted Ike to have to prove himself before Shinon's pride would bend. By the time Shinon returns, the rest of the game is paladin/flier stompfest unless you specifically go out of your way to not use mounts.

Oh, and you have to meatshield/train Rolf to recruit Shinon again in a chapter that would be easy to speed through otherwise. LAAAME.

I think Shinon is a great character but as a unit he's basically dead to me when he leaves.

But this discussion about Shinon is starting to go a little off-topic. Everyone is aware of Shinon's problems anyway.

[Snowy_One]

I think Shinon would have been an ideal Jeigan. He's good when he joins, but has flaws that will make him end up sub-par and avoided by experienced players (bow-lock). He can carry the team for a bit, but eventually other units have to pick up the slack. Titania could probably have left and rejoined at the same times as Shinon did and ended up in mid or upper-mid. Shinon, well, it's possible to argue Rolf better (not saying he is, just that it can be argued if you value the chapters where Rolf is present and late-game power as more important).

[Life]

I think Shinon would have been an ideal Jeigan. He's good when he joins, but has flaws that will make him end up sub-par and avoided by experienced players (bow-lock). He can carry the team for a bit, but eventually other units have to pick up the slack. Titania could probably have left and rejoined at the same times as Shinon did and ended up in mid or upper-mid. Shinon, well, it's possible to argue Rolf better (not saying he is, just that it can be argued if you value the chapters where Rolf is present and late-game power as more important).

Uh... No. Aside from chapter 12, there is very little reason to field Rolf at all. Shinon can at least do something while he exists and is decent. All Rolf can do is emulate being a competant unit for a single chapter which still getsovershadowed by your regulars.

To even think about arguing Rolf as better than Shinon (or more useful) is a complete joke.

[Snowy_One]

I really disagree with that. This is Shinon's base stats: HP: 32 STR: 9 MAG: 6 SKL: 15 SPD: 13 LCK: 9 DEF: 9 RES: 6 and here is Rolf's level 10 stats: HP: 23.4 STR: 8.6 MAG: 1.8 SKL: 12.05 SPD: 10.5 LCK: 7.6 DEF: 8.7 RES: 4.25. While Shinon's is better, take a closer look. HP is a clear win for Shinon, but they are basically tied in STR (at worst Rolf needs one more level) and his lead in MAG is totally useless (Can you even get the bright bow? I forget). While Shinon has a lead in SKL, 12 SKL is no slouch and bows have a naturally high hit (Rolf's Bow starts at 100 and a basic iron has 85). Shinon win's SPD by 3 and RES by 2, but otherwise they're the same. This is a level 10 Rolf. If you opted to promote him at this time you'd get HP: +3 STR: +3 MAG: +2 SKL: +2 SPD: +2 DEF: +2 RES: +2 which would put Rolf ahead in most stats or only *just* behind except in HP. You can get a level 10 Rolf easily by chapter 14 and nudging his level up is much easier than Shinon's. I won't argue that, for speed play, Shinon is better. But if you're looking for a long-term use sniper, Rolf is better.

[Life]

You can't give me Rolf's level 10 stats without justifying how he's getting there. Combat? He's still shit at level 10 so why would I field him outside of Chapter 12? BExp? I'm busy using it on units who can contribute.

Basically, you're giving me the argument that Tavaris Jackson could be as good as Vince Young if given playtime. But you forget that Young isn't good enough himself to be a starter.

Somebody convert that into some sort of WoW metaphor so that Snowy gets the idea?

Edited December 29, 2012 by Am Yisrael Chai

[Espinosa]

I've noticed a lot of non-efficiency players train Rolf for the same reason they give Paladin Oscar bows - to watch da triangle attack! Similar to how many feel obliged to train Lilina in FE6.