Most useful version of the AS system?

[FEAnon]

So in a nutshell, Con is the best version of the AS system albeit with a few weapon weight reductions and make it so that the Con goes up to + and - 1 of the class base, so that no unit has a sizeable advantage over the other.

[Shadow Mir]

So in a nutshell, Con is the best version of the AS system albeit with a few weapon weight reductions and make it so that the Con goes up to + and - 1 of the class base, so that no unit has a sizeable advantage over the other.

I wouldn't say so, imho; females in general get shafted. Though that's just me.

Edited November 21, 2012 by Levant Fortner

[Integrity]

I wouldn't say so, imho; females in general get shafted. Though that's just me.

He never said he would split it down male/female lines.

[Shadow Mir]

He never said he would split it down male/female lines.

Okay. Though as I see it, females' relative lack of con is still a problem that'd need to be addressed, along with the fact that enemies are too commonly seen with steel weapons (FE8 in particular, since monsters *NEVER* use silver aside from that one Wight in Eirika's route; I also agree with PKL that the con system meant that GBA enemies were generally little threat for the aforementioned reason).

Edited November 21, 2012 by Levant Fortner

[Integrity]

Okay. Though as I see it, females' relative lack of con is still a problem that'd need to be addressed,

and make it so that the Con goes up to + and - 1 of the class base, so that no unit has a sizeable advantage over the other.

along with the fact that enemies are too commonly seen with steel weapons ... I also agree with PKL that the con system meant that GBA enemies were generally little threat for the aforementioned reason.

albeit with a few weapon weight reductions

So in a nutshell, you were just sort-of passive-aggressively disagreeably saying "I agree"? Because you've only said what this guy essentially did.

[Anouleth]

So in a nutshell, Con is the best version of the AS system albeit with a few weapon weight reductions and make it so that the Con goes up to + and - 1 of the class base, so that no unit has a sizeable advantage over the other.

What precisely is being delivered in nutshell format here?

So in a nutshell, you were just sort-of passive-aggressively disagreeably saying "I agree"? Because you've only said what this guy essentially did.

No, FEAnon suggested that most class would have constitution based on the class base constitution, which would lead to large imbalances between male and female units because female classes generally have lower CON, or at least, they generally have in all Fire Emblems in which the Build or CON stat existed.

Edited November 21, 2012 by Anouleth

[Integrity]

No, FEAnon suggested that most class would have constitution based on the class base constitution, which would lead to large imbalances between male and female units because female classes generally have lower CON, or at least, they generally have in all Fire Emblems in which the Build or CON stat existed.

I assumed he meant that units would deviate from a common class base by up to +/- 1 point. Re-reading, I could be wrong on that one.

Edited November 21, 2012 by Mr. Sparkles

[Baldrick]

Simple solution; change the class bases so that females have a speed advantage equal to male's CON advantage.

Now we can all agree CON is the best system.

[Florete]

Here's a question: What exactly makes CON the best system?

[Integrity]

Here's a question: What exactly makes CON the best system?

It was leading the poll by two votes at that precise moment.

[Rehab]

Simple solution; change the class bases so that females have a speed advantage equal to male's CON advantage.

Now we can all agree CON is the best system.

My first thought was "give all the males better bases and all the females better growths," but yeah your idea's probably markedly less stupid.

[Paperblade]

It was leading the poll by two votes at that precise moment.

ad populum isn't a reason

[Shadow Mir]

Simple solution; change the class bases so that females have a speed advantage equal to male's CON advantage.

Now we can all agree CON is the best system.

That does little to nothing to address the horrific imbalance that the Con system has.

[Icon of Sin]

My first thought was "give all the males better bases and all the females better growths," but yeah your idea's probably markedly less stupid.

Except that's more or less done already. Females typically have more Spd/Luk/Res while males have higher HP/Str/Def.

Now I wouldn't mind seeing "better growths" on females though.

[Baldrick]

Here's a question: What exactly makes CON the best system?

Compared to the STR system, it means units with greater penalties aren't doubly screwed over because they're also doing less damage per hit, and later on, weapon weight isn't made completely irrelevant.

FE3's system is the best, but there's no option for it in the poll, so I assume nobody else likes it.

Cucco: What horrific imbalance?

Edited November 21, 2012 by Minor Baldo

[dondon151]

none of these arguments for what makes any of these systems "the best system" are objective, hence this will never be agreed upon and smart-alecks are just going to continue pooping on this thread

(well str = AS is objectively bad precisely for the reason that baldrick mentioned above)

Edited November 21, 2012 by dondon151

[Shadow Mir]

Cucco: What horrific imbalance?

The average female unit has somewhere in the vein of 4-6 con, whereas the average male unit has around double that. Now you can't deny that females having only about half as much con as males do on average puts them at a flat out disadvantage - one a speed advantage doesn't nearly do enough to remedy. Combine that with the fact that females tend to have lower strength than males, and...

Edited November 21, 2012 by Levant Fortner

[dondon151]

all of these grievances are potentially problems with the implementations and not with the systems themselves, which is why your argument is getting nowhere. even something as horrific as the FE4 system could be "fixed."

Edited November 21, 2012 by dondon151

[Integrity]

The average female unit has somewhere in the vein of 4-6 con, whereas the average male unit has around double that.

How in the hell did you come to that? Did you just straight add up all the womens' CONs for one game and average it? Because those figures ignore things like every relevant factor possible.

[Baldrick]

The average female unit has somewhere in the vein of 4-6 con, whereas the average male unit has around double that. Now you can't deny that females having only about half as much con as males do on average puts them at a flat out disadvantage - one a speed advantage doesn't nearly do enough to remedy. Combine that with the fact that females tend to have lower strength than males, and...

Read my post carefully.

females have a speed advantage equal to male's CON advantage.

Let's say females have 5 con, males 10 con. So if males have, say, 7 speed, females have 12.

Wielding a light weapon: FAS = 12 - Max(0,5-5) = 12, MAS = 7 - Max(0,5-10) = 7. FAS > MAS

Wielding a heavy weapon: FAS = 12 - Max(0,10-5) = 7, MAS = 7 - Max(0,10-10) = 7. FAS = MAS

Females are never slower than males, and faster when the weight is less than the male's con.

Females will be doubling more often than males, so the damage output should balance out. Also note that this is in general; there's nothing stopping a female having a higher str score than a male.

[SgtSmilies]

Let's say females have 5 con, males 10 con. So if males have, say, 7 speed, females have 12.

These proposed stats are kinda silly. Half Con is an estimate that simply doesn't make sense, with female variations only losing 1-2 in base con. The only reason half was averaged was because Pegknights are fem only, while high con units such as Warriors and Berserkers are male only

[arvilino]

Read my post carefully.

Let's say females have 5 con, males 10 con. So if males have, say, 7 speed, females have 12.

Wielding a light weapon: FAS = 12 - Max(0,5-5) = 12, MAS = 7 - Max(0,5-10) = 7. FAS > MAS

Wielding a heavy weapon: FAS = 12 - Max(0,10-5) = 7, MAS = 7 - Max(0,10-10) = 7. FAS = MAS

Females are never slower than males, and faster when the weight is less than the male's con.

Females will be doubling more often than males, so the damage output should balance out. Also note that this is in general; there's nothing stopping a female having a higher str score than a male.

Wouldn't females need to have the exact same speed growth as Males of the same class to keep that steady and have to have less strength else they'd be faster and hitting hard or just as fast and hitting harder?

[Original Alear]

Compared to the STR system, it means units with greater penalties aren't doubly screwed over because they're also doing less damage per hit, and later on, weapon weight isn't made completely irrelevant.

(well str = AS is objectively bad precisely for the reason that baldrick mentioned above)

Maybe objectively. Probably objectively. I think FE10 worked better with str-weight than if you slap baldrick's fix on it, and I think that has a lot to do with the inflated late-game stats, which I think were justified - from my subjective position. For that reason, I don't think that proposing an easy fix for con, and pointing out an objective weakness of AS, really addresses the one use of str->AS very well, just because it has weaknesses. Maybe the proper, even disproportionate addition/reducation of weapon weights and cons could have done the job. Might have even wanted to change some speeds.

FE13 also has inflated stats, but it has so many gameplay additions/changes that I wouldn't even know what to say if I knew weapon weight existed in it.

FE3's system is the best, but there's no option for it in the poll, so I assume nobody else likes it.

I didn't play FE3. I looked up the system. I like it. It's the same system used in FE4.

Edited November 21, 2012 by Mouse

[Baldrick]

These proposed stats are kinda silly. Half Con is an estimate that simply doesn't make sense, with female variations only losing 1-2 in base con. The only reason half was averaged was because Pegknights are fem only, while high con units such as Warriors and Berserkers are male only

I thought we were talking about units of the same class. Nevertheless, classes that have low con in general should have advantages over units that have high con in general.

Wouldn't females need to have the exact same speed growth as Males of the same class to keep that steady and have to have less strength else they'd be faster and hitting hard or just as fast and hitting harder?

In practice, if you want to achieve that result, yes. My idea is only meant to give the genders theoretical balance.

Yes. In general, the faster unit should be weaker, but it's not strictly necessary since damage and AS aren't the only two factors in a battle.

I didn't play FE3. I looked up the system. I like it. It's the same system used in FE4.

Yeah, they are the same, though the implementation is slightly different. I usually find myself paying more attention to weight in FE3 since choice of weapon more often affects the number of attacks in a battle.

Edited November 22, 2012 by Minor Baldo

[FEAnon]

Well thinking about the Con system again, I personally feel that Bows had the best implementation for the weapons on a whole in terms of weight. Using Bows as a base, then I can see weapons following a formula like this for weight:

Iron - Some value

Steel - Iron + 4

Silver - Iron + 2

S Rank - Iron +3

Slims - Iron - 3

1-2 Range/2-3 Range - Iron + 5

Seige Tomes - Basic Tome + 10

All of the other weapons types would fall somewhere in this range.

In terms of playable characters, using Pegasus Knights as an example with their 5 base con, since we usually get three of them, one pegasus would have 4 Con, one would have 5 and the other would have 6. That way no two members of the same class would have a sizeable advantage over the other in terms of Con.