Operation Pillar of Smoke

[dondon151]

Serious question for Life, if you're allowed to answer this. When innocent civilians like women and kids do end up getting killed because of the Israeli army's attacks, is that a cause of collateral damage or something? I just ask because I don't want to believe that people actually intentionally kill them.

Do you think that he would actually own up and admit that killing innocents is a military policy (assuming that is true, which it almost certainly isn't)?

[Raven]

So innocent civilians continue to die. What would it take for both sides to lay down their weapons?

[Helios]

Do you think that he would actually own up and admit that killing innocents is a military policy (assuming that is true, which it almost certainly isn't)?

I didn't say it was a military policy now did I? But it happens often and you can't ignore that.

[Life]

I'm going to be perfectly honest here: Life is not an Israelite, and he embodies all of the negative qualities of the stereotypical Islamophobic Jew.

I may not be born here but I live here now. Plus there are two factors you're missing.

1. Dont hate Arabs. Just terrorists who throw rockets at my country and city. They hit my mall in Beer Sheva so you know. But Nightmare is one of my best buddies here to give you an idea.

2. I said this in 1 but rockets are hitting my city. Do you blame me?

Serious question for Life, if you're allowed to answer this. When innocent civilians like women and kids do end up getting killed because of the Israeli army's attacks, is that a cause of collateral damage or something? I just ask because I don't want to believe that people actually intentionally kill them.

Do you think that he would actually own up and admit that killing innocents is a military policy (assuming that is true, which it almost certainly isn't)?

General answer is avoid civilians as much as possible but it's a lot harder on this case. It's a question that I don't want to answer though because of what commanders have told me to do.

No more time to answer.

[Helios]

Thanks for telling us what you can at least. It's nice to get a different viewpoint than what you see on the news.

[Raven]

It's hard to avoid civilian deaths when targets are mingling within public/civilian locations. I wouldn't be surprised if the official order is to fire at targets and treat any civilian deaths as recoil. The way of war.

Hopefully the ceasefire goes through soon to avoid any more innocents getting killed in this thing.

[FionordeQuester]

I've actually been in situations that regularly required me doing something to potentially risk life and limb. There was one point in my martial arts training in which, for six months, my instructors would simulate us being thrown into situations where criminals would beat us up, and they would hit us so hard that we were required to wear face helmets, groin pads, and other such things like that. In fact, once, I was worked over so hard by a match with one of my instructors, and I literally had a nosebleed despite wearing a sparring helmet the whole time! And I'm not even when I say I got thrown through a wall twice (not a very thick one, but still). And the kicker of it all was, if me or any of my classmates gave up during those six months, we would never, ever be able to continue on at the black belt levels of training ever again.

So, even though what I went through still won't compare to the danger you'll be in, I think my situation was similar enough, and I would really like to prepare you for what you might experience, as best I can. You are probably going to be put into a situation of extreme fear, like you can't possibly describe until you've actually experienced it. I don't know how you'll feel, but I know how I felt when that happened to me, and almost every day, I felt trapped, like every day was a ticking time-bomb in which I was waiting for the time to tick down. My classes were only 2-3 times a week, and yet I spent every day obsessing over what my next class would be like. If you can, try not to think about what the next day will bring, as you JUST DON'T KNOW, and worrying is not going to do a darn thing to help. Plus, even if you get knowledge of what will happen on that day...will you really actually be able to USE that info? Probably not. But other tips...

1) No matter what you do, DO NOT GIVE UP, unless you feel as though you would be betraying your morals if you didn't. If you do, you running away will make it so that you may form habits that will also cause you to be defeated at other significant aspects of life. But if you DON'T give up, you might have to go through some PTSD therapy (only a "might" though), but you'll also have done and gone through something so harsh, that every time you encounter a challenge later on in life, you can look at that, and say "well, at least that wasn't as bad as THAT!", and you'll be all the more capable for it.

2) I don't know how it will be for you, but in my training, my instructors would regularly make jokes about how much the night was going to hurt for us, and I hated the way they would do that. They went through the training themselves, so I would think "why in the world would they make an already terrifying situation even WORSE for us?" Well, of course, the answer ended up being that it was an important part of our time, and that, ultimately, they were just trying to prepare us for what a real life-or-death fight would be like. So, if you meet someone who seems oddly detached about the whole thing, or a seemingly heartless drill master, your perceptions could be wrong. They could be very different people outside of the danger zone, as it was with my instructors, so, that might help. I know I was comforted by that fact. And that brings me to...

3) You may look around at the partners around you, see them able to laugh and joke about things and not express obvious fear, and you may look at that and go "is there something wrong with me? Am I not made of the right stuff to last one minute in war? Should I just give up now since OBVIOUSLY, people are expecting too much of me, I'm not made of the right stuff, and my superiors are not right in the head?" I felt these things in my training because I was so terrified, and couldn't even fathom how someone could go through what I did without living every single day in fear, unless they were kooky in some way...well, the answer is this...

Almost EVERYONE is experiencing extreme fear on the inside, and strange though it may sound (maybe I'm just an odd guy myself), they're afraid to admit it. Now, as someone who's planning on getting a major in Psychology, I don't recommend you trying to keep things bottled up inside. Don't be constantly THINKING about how scared you are either (that was my mistake), but don't try to bottle them up either. Try to find someone you can establish a rapport with, and talk about what you're feeling once in a while. And that brings me to 4...

4) I would recommend that, even if you aren't feeling particularly excited or brave, try to make yourself think thoughts like "well, I sure am looking forward to that awesome game after this battle tonight", or "I would sure HATE to not be here today!", or other such thoughts, no matter how hollow and empty they sound to you inside. It's a way of rewiring your brain so that your making it feel what you WANT it to feel, and even though it's not as though you're going to be your own hypnotist or anything like that, I personally find that it helps motivate me in my life, so that's something you could possibly consider too. But, whatever works for you I suppose.

5) This is a crucial one. I would often hear stories from my Dad who did not go into a war himself, but who had family that did, and one of the facts he found were this...

The soldiers who fight in war generally fall into three categories...

A) The ones who are total maniacs

B) The ones who experience extreme crippling fear and can't seem to overcome it

C) The ones who feel the same fears as B, but master their fear and fight the best fight they can anyways.

The soldiers who tend to live are the ones in group A and C, and the ones who tend to die are the ones in group B. Now, fear is not an unhealthy thing to have when kept in line, but do NOT let it paralyze you so that you can hardly function. That may very well get you killed.

6) There is absolutely no shame in fear. It's perfectly natural, and in fact, it may be a mark of something abnormal about you if you AREN'T experiencing fear. But just don't let it make you do nothing, or make you act in dishonorable ways.

So, that was all I had to say based on my own experiences in life. Now, I actually ended up WINNING that Black Belt despite me experiencing all of what I described, and though it wasn't easy, I know that you can too. I just hope that maybe there's at least something here that will help you, as my heart goes out to anyone who had to experience what I experienced.

In any case, God Bless you. You can be assured that I will pray for you every night.

[bottlegnomes]

"One rather large mess" is a fitting way to describe it. Both sides just need to stop their aggressions and reach a peaceful solution, and though that's easier said than done, we can still try and hope.

Couldn't agree more on all points.

And, if anyone is actually able to answer, if that email is correct, why is the US still supporting Israel? I get the whole making up for the Holocaust, but why did anyone think it would be okay to say well you all have to give up some of your land for something you weren't even involved in to the Middle Eastern countries? Don't get me wrong, I hope the best for Israel, but they invaded Palestine. Palestine would be insane to not fight back, and the US shouldn't be supporting the aggressor. There's the Israel being our biggest ally in the Middle East, but if that's seriously the whole reason, I'm rather disappointed.

That said, as with Raven, I'm not particularly familiar with the whole conflict, so if someone can explain this for me, that would be much appreciated.

[Original Alear]

Couldn't agree more on all points.

And, if anyone is actually able to answer, if that email is correct, why is the US still supporting Israel? I get the whole making up for the Holocaust, but why did anyone think it would be okay to say well you all have to give up some of your land for something you weren't even involved in to the Middle Eastern countries? Don't get me wrong, I hope the best for Israel, but they invaded Palestine. Palestine would be insane to not fight back, and the US shouldn't be supporting the aggressor. There's the Israel being our biggest ally in the Middle East, but if that's seriously the whole reason, I'm rather disappointed.

That said, as with Raven, I'm not particularly familiar with the whole conflict, so if someone can explain this for me, that would be much appreciated.

Where does our support really matter? By merely not supporting Israel, can we save the life of someone in the OT? I dunno. But the US's support is not just about the OT.

http://www.france24....re-challenge-12

Seriously, I'm having trouble with copy and paste, just give it a read.

Maybe we paid too much attention to foreign threats to Israel. I have no idea. I am just trying to point out the scope of the US's gestures, without claiming that we do any good - this is apparently a reduction from what was planned months or years ago when some dude on facebook posted a link for me.

Note that the lieutenant general stated this was not a reaction to any perceived tensions.

Edited November 22, 2012 by Mouse

[Dark Sage]

Couldn't agree more on all points.

And, if anyone is actually able to answer, if that email is correct, why is the US still supporting Israel? I get the whole making up for the Holocaust, but why did anyone think it would be okay to say well you all have to give up some of your land for something you weren't even involved in to the Middle Eastern countries? Don't get me wrong, I hope the best for Israel, but they invaded Palestine. Palestine would be insane to not fight back, and the US shouldn't be supporting the aggressor. There's the Israel being our biggest ally in the Middle East, but if that's seriously the whole reason, I'm rather disappointed.

That said, as with Raven, I'm not particularly familiar with the whole conflict, so if someone can explain this for me, that would be much appreciated.

One could make the argument that the Jews in Israel were enslaved for hundreds of years the way the Palesinians are today. Not that I think its a justifiable argument or anything.

1. Dont hate Arabs. Just terrorists who throw rockets at my country and city. They hit my mall in Beer Sheva so you know. But Nightmare is one of my best buddies here to give you an idea.

"I have black Arab friends"

[bottlegnomes]

Where does our support really matter? By merely not supporting Israel, can we save the life of someone in the OT? I dunno. But the US's support is not just about the OT.

http://www.france24....re-challenge-12

Seriously, I'm having trouble with copy and paste, just give it a read.

Maybe we paid too much attention to foreign threats to Israel. I have no idea. I am just trying to point out the scope of the US's gestures, without claiming that we do any good - this is apparently a reduction from what was planned months or years ago when some dude on facebook posted a link for me.

Note that the lieutenant general stated this was not a reaction to any perceived tensions.

For the US's impact, I was just going from that email posted earlier which made it seem like a big deal. As for the actual amount of weight the US holds, I'm not too concerned; I just feel that it's morally wrong to support the aggressors in a war. Thanks for the link.

One could make the argument that the Jews in Israel were enslaved for hundreds of years the way the Palesinians are today. Not that I think its a justifiable argument or anything.

True, but as you said, it's not a justifiable argument. It'd be like saying every black person living in the US can pick a random white person to have as a slave for the rest of his or her life to make up for their earlier enslavement.

[Raven]

According to the news, there is currently a ceasefire in place between the two sides. Hopefully for the sake of civilians and the lives of those who want nothing but peace this will continue, and an agreement in which everyone benefits can be made.

[Original Alear]

For the US's impact, I was just going from that email posted earlier which made it seem like a big deal. As for the actual amount of weight the US holds, I'm not too concerned; I just feel that it's morally wrong to support the aggressors in a war. Thanks for the link.

Yes, and I'm just trying to bring attention to the fact that there are also morally wrong alternatives to morally wrong choices. Maybe more moderated support is ok. But complete withdrawal of support? Maybe it would be useful for a really aggravating meddler like the US to turn their back on the conflict entirely. But would other meddlers step in? Or are other meddlers already involved?

Also kudos to the ceasefire.

Edited November 22, 2012 by Mouse

[Life]

I really wish the US would stop pretending to understand the conflict better than Israelis and Palestinians. It's rather insulting that they believe that a ceasefire (for reasons that I will explain in a bit) is the true answer to peace.

[Anouleth]

Couldn't agree more on all points.

And, if anyone is actually able to answer, if that email is correct, why is the US still supporting Israel?

A lot of people in the US support Israel and think they're in the right. Certainly, more people in the US sympathise with the Israeli cause than the Palestinian cause. There are also very powerful political interests that fund pro-Israel politicians, such as AIPAC and Sheldon Adelson, who pretty much single-handedly propped up Newt Gingrich's presidential bid back in 2011 with donations into the millions.

The US has certainly supported worse governments in the past, not just in the Middle East but all over the world (although the level of support to Israel exceeds that for any other country). Support for a nation isn't necessarily to do whether the government is "good" or "bad", so much as it is to maintain peace and stability in the region. For example, the US supported Hosni Mubarak for many years, because even though he was a dictator, he wasn't hostile towards Israel. Another good example is the support of the US towards Pakistan, which is especially important because Pakistan has nuclear weapons. If Pakistan's government were to collapse, then there's a risk that those weapons could fall into the wrong hands. And I suppose there's the fear that if the United States reduced their support for Israel, it's neighbours might take that as an opportunity to be even more hostile and perhaps even invade.

[eclipse]

I really wish the US would stop pretending to understand the conflict better than Israelis and Palestinians. It's rather insulting that they believe that a ceasefire (for reasons that I will explain in a bit) is the true answer to peace.

From your point of view, what would be the true answer to peace?

(I'm curious, as I'm seeing all sorts of commentary on this)

[bottlegnomes]

A lot of people in the US support Israel and think they're in the right. Certainly, more people in the US sympathise with the Israeli cause than the Palestinian cause. There are also very powerful political interests that fund pro-Israel politicians, such as AIPAC and Sheldon Adelson, who pretty much single-handedly propped up Newt Gingrich's presidential bid back in 2011 with donations into the millions.

The US has certainly supported worse governments in the past, not just in the Middle East but all over the world (although the level of support to Israel exceeds that for any other country). Support for a nation isn't necessarily to do whether the government is "good" or "bad", so much as it is to maintain peace and stability in the region. For example, the US supported Hosni Mubarak for many years, because even though he was a dictator, he wasn't hostile towards Israel. Another good example is the support of the US towards Pakistan, which is especially important because Pakistan has nuclear weapons. If Pakistan's government were to collapse, then there's a risk that those weapons could fall into the wrong hands. And I suppose there's the fear that if the United States reduced their support for Israel, it's neighbours might take that as an opportunity to be even more hostile and perhaps even invade.

So it is just mostly politicking like I figured. That's disappointing. I mean there's the public support, and I'd need to read more about that, but it seems like a combination of racism towards Middle Eastern countries and the public not being informed enough about the history of the event; then again, I'm not exactly a scholar on the subject.

We also supported Sadam. So yeah, it's nothing new, but it still doesn't mean I can't be disappointed.

Edited November 30, 2012 by bottlegnomes

[Life]

So innocent civilians continue to die. What would it take for both sides to lay down their weapons?

If every Palestinian laid down his weapons, there would be peace. If every Israeli laid down his, there'd be no more Israel.

I know that sounds kinda ridiculous but it's actually true. About two weeks after the ceasefire, papers reported (more like screamed) about how Israel was building more settlements in disputed lands. But the second that the area was mentioned (Ma'ale Adumim), I got stumped. Why? Because it's not disputed. There are no Arabs in the area that even protest Ma'ale Adumim growing in size. It's north-east of Jerusalem but there have never been any problems vs. the Arabs. It's like building houses in Efrat or Ariel which both yield a total amount of zero fucks from the rest of the world (both are technically West Bank).

I honestly believe that most of the problems come from the crazy fanatics and not the average people. The average Palestinian doesn't give a shit about Israel building houses in places like Ma'ale Adumim. It doesn't feel like an invasion or whatever because most of those people actually consider themselves Israeli (how else do you explain Arab parties in the K'nesset with a total of 7/120 seats?). It's only the leaders who put out big fusses about it but they're the ones who control the rockets.

And, if anyone is actually able to answer, if that email is correct, why is the US still supporting Israel?

Lotta reasons. Anouleth touched on a couple of them but he never mentioned the oil point. By having influence in Israel, the US has a vital link to gaining oil from the Middle East (a friend to control the Red Sea). Aside from that, there's the fact that Israel is the only real democratic nation in the Middle East (yes, please tell me with a straight face that both Egypt and Syria are fair democratic nations) and the USA cannot stand by and watch democracy fall (same idea with capitalism in the 60's during the Cold War).

Honestly, I don't understand fully why they still support Israel at all. You'd think that they hate Israel by now because of all the problem that "we cause them".

Also, just going to drop this here. For anyone who wants a laugh.

[Rehab]

Does Turkey count IYO? Honest question

[Anouleth]

If every Palestinian laid down his weapons, there would be peace. If every Israeli laid down his, there'd be no more Israel.

Well, I have no doubt that if the Palestinians unconditionally surrendered and gave the Israelis everything they want (which isn't much given they've already taken most of what they want), there would be peace. So all they have to do is give up half their land and their right to an army, and I suppose implicit in that is the assumption that they can't elect any leaders that Israel finds objectionable for any reason (such as Hamas).

I know that sounds kinda ridiculous but it's actually true. About two weeks after the ceasefire, papers reported (more like screamed) about how Israel was building more settlements in disputed lands. But the second that the area was mentioned (Ma'ale Adumim), I got stumped. Why? Because it's not disputed. There are no Arabs in the area that even protest Ma'ale Adumim growing in size. It's north-east of Jerusalem but there have never been any problems vs. the Arabs. It's like building houses in Efrat or Ariel which both yield a total amount of zero fucks from the rest of the world (both are technically West Bank).

Oh, well that's fine. Nobody was using the land, so you can just stroll in and build whatever the fuck you like there. No doubt, if four million Arabs wanted to do the same in some deserted spot in your country, you'd gladly oblige, because it's only "technically" Israel, and really you didn't have any choice when you decided to build settlements in volatile, politically controversial territory in violation of international law instead of, I don't know, fucking anywhere in your own fucking country?

I honestly believe that most of the problems come from the crazy fanatics and not the average people. The average Palestinian doesn't give a shit about Israel building houses in places like Ma'ale Adumim. It doesn't feel like an invasion or whatever because most of those people actually consider themselves Israeli (how else do you explain Arab parties in the K'nesset with a total of 7/120 seats?).

The "average" Palestinian cannot vote in Israeli elections. If they could, they'd have way more than 7/120 seats in the Knesset, given that there are 4 million Palestinians and 8 million Israelis. Not to mention all the Palestinians that fled to other countries in the region.

[Life]

Well, I have no doubt that if the Palestinians unconditionally surrendered and gave the Israelis everything they want (which isn't much given they've already taken most of what they want), there would be peace. So all they have to do is give up half their land and their right to an army, and I suppose implicit in that is the assumption that they can't elect any leaders that Israel finds objectionable for any reason (such as Hamas).

Whoa... what?

Gave us everything we want? You know what we want? How about no more rockets being shot at us? That sounds about right.

The hell are you reading daily, Al-Jezeera?

Oh, well that's fine. Nobody was using the land, so you can just stroll in and build whatever the fuck you like there.

Umm... yes. Like any other country in the world does. Land is uninhabited and uncontested. So we build there. Where's the issue again?

No doubt, if four million Arabs wanted to do the same in some deserted spot in your country, you'd gladly oblige, because it's only "technically" Israel, and really you didn't have any choice when you decided to build settlements in volatile, politically controversial territory in violation of international law instead of, I don't know, fucking anywhere in your own fucking country?

We obliged until they started trying to murder us in our sleep. Legitimately. I have been roused at 5 AM to hear a siren go off and a missile hit right after wards. I was in my apartment in Be'er Sheva.

Note that we still have Arabs in "Israeli land" as you want to call it. There's a shit ton of kfars (Arab villages and towns) all around the country. And funny story, these kfars also got hit by missiles during the operation. The Palestinians love each other so much that they're willing to kill their friends to take us out. Nice.

The "average" Palestinian cannot vote in Israeli elections. If they could, they'd have way more than 7/120 seats in the Knesset, given that there are 4 million Palestinians and 8 million Israelis. Not to mention all the Palestinians that fled to other countries in the region.

I've been wondering where you're getting all this bile from but I think I've figured it out.

I'd like you to name one country where the Palestinians have fled to and received more aid than Israel. Just one. Egypt? Nope, they're even harsher than us. Iran? Sure, I mean all Iran lives for is the destruction of Israel. Syria? In the middle of killing their own people.

I mean, do you honestly believe all the stuff that comes out of your mouth? Am I so incredibly evil for wanting rockets to stop bombing us daily? Because if that happens, hell I'll recognize Gaza as a Palestinian state and even invest in them. But since they tried to originally create their charter with a passage that called for the destruction of Israel and still hold to that stance, it's kinda hard for me to lay down my weapon.

EDIT: Also, there already is a Palestinian country. It's called the Kingdom of Jordan.

EDIT #2: Couple other things that you need to see.

Take a look at this map. This is a map of how far rockets from Gaza can and do go. We can't build in these areas anymore because if we build something, it's in a danger zone (you know, people might die). We can't build in the West Bank because ILLEGAL SETTLEMENTS (even though the people there couldn't give two shits since places like Alon Shvut have been Jewish communities since the 70's). We can't build in the Negev because we're still working on trying to turn the place from a desert into livable land. So that just leaves the north. And what happens when we get attacked from Lebanon or Syria? Or when Hamas starts hitting us there? We can't build?

Well, we can't build. We can't grow. It's essentially trying to suffocate Israel to nothing. You for that or against it?

Edited December 19, 2012 by Am Yisrael Chai

[Anouleth]

Whoa... what?

Gave us everything we want? You know what we want? How about no more rockets being shot at us? That sounds about right.

The hell are you reading daily, Al-Jezeera?

It's my understanding that the Israelis want three things before they will recognise the Palestinian right to their own country: no right of return for Palestinian refugees, no Palestinian army, and no division of Jerusalem.

Umm... yes. Like any other country in the world does. Land is uninhabited and uncontested. So we build there. Where's the issue again?

Because it's not yours to build on? Because it's on the other side of the 1967 borders?

I cannot go to Texas and build a house there and live there. It doesn't matter if it's uninhabited. It's American land. I have to ask the permission of the American government to live there. A Palestinian Arab cannot go to an uninhabited place in Israel and build a house and live there. It's Israeli land. The Israelis have the right to decide who can come in and out of their country. So he must get the permission of the Israeli government.

However, apparently these rules don't apply to the Israelis. Israelis can walk into Palestinian land in the West Bank and build a house there. Do they have to ask the permission of the Palestinian government? I'm guessing no. And these projects were approved just to piss off the Palestinians, in retaliation for their observer state bid in the UN.

And that's if the land is "uninhabited" and "uncontested", when often, land is illegally seized.

And please tell me what other country does this, because aside from Nazi Germany (which instituted settlement programs in occupied land taken from their neighbours), I can't think of any. I would like not to make a Nazi comparison, but you seem to have left me little choice with your bald assertion that all nations do this.

We obliged until they started trying to murder us in our sleep. Legitimately. I have been roused at 5 AM to hear a siren go off and a missile hit right after wards. I was in my apartment in Be'er Sheva.

Note that we still have Arabs in "Israeli land" as you want to call it. There's a shit ton of kfars (Arab villages and towns) all around the country. And funny story, these kfars also got hit by missiles during the operation. The Palestinians love each other so much that they're willing to kill their friends to take us out. Nice.

So, while the majority of Palestinian Arabs are peaceful and respect Israel's right to exist, you can't let Palestinian Arabs live in Israel because they'll murder you in your sleep? I don't get how you can hold these mutually exclusive views on the Palestinians.

I've been wondering where you're getting all this bile from but I think I've figured it out.

I don't have bile. I'm not the one who's making out Palestinian Arabs to be so murderous and untrustworthy that you couldn't possibly ever be expected to share a country with them.

I'd like you to name one country where the Palestinians have fled to and received more aid than Israel. Just one. Egypt? Nope, they're even harsher than us. Iran? Sure, I mean all Iran lives for is the destruction of Israel. Syria? In the middle of killing their own people.

Why does any of this matter? Ok, your neighbours have committed horrible crimes against humanity. That doesn't excuse your own country's flagrant flouting of international law, and illegal seizure of Palestinian land. If Israel is really such a paragon, and Palestinians are so mistreated in neighbouring nations, shouldn't it gladly accept that Palestinian refugees have a right of return?

I mean, do you honestly believe all the stuff that comes out of your mouth? Am I so incredibly evil for wanting rockets to stop bombing us daily? Because if that happens, hell I'll recognize Gaza as a Palestinian state and even invest in them. But since they tried to originally create their charter with a passage that called for the destruction of Israel and still hold to that stance, it's kinda hard for me to lay down my weapon.

And 28 years ago, Netanyahu said that Palestinians did not have the right to their own state (he's since changed his mind). In my own country, we have MPs, who, thirty years ago, were involved in the terrorist IRA. Even if Hamas claimed to have as their goal the destruction of Israel 30 years ago, I think that such associations can change a great deal over time.

[Life]

It's my understanding that the Israelis want three things before they will recognise the Palestinian right to their own country: no right of return for Palestinian refugees, no Palestinian army, and no division of Jerusalem.

Well, your understanding is wrong. We want no division of Jerusalem and no rockets shot upon us.

Because it's not yours to build on? Because it's on the other side of the 1967 borders?

I cannot go to Texas and build a house there and live there. It doesn't matter if it's uninhabited. It's American land. I have to ask the permission of the American government to live there. A Palestinian Arab cannot go to an uninhabited place in Israel and build a house and live there. It's Israeli land. The Israelis have the right to decide who can come in and out of their country. So he must get the permission of the Israeli government.

However, apparently these rules don't apply to the Israelis. Israelis can walk into Palestinian land in the West Bank and build a house there. Do they have to ask the permission of the Palestinian government? I'm guessing no. And these projects were approved just to piss off the Palestinians, in retaliation for their observer state bid in the UN.

And that's if the land is "uninhabited" and "uncontested", when often, land is illegally seized.

And please tell me what other country does this, because aside from Nazi Germany (which instituted settlement programs in occupied land taken from their neighbours), I can't think of any. I would like not to make a Nazi comparison, but you seem to have left me little choice with your bald assertion that all nations do this.

Sorry, I was under the impression that land won in wars (especially defensive ones like 1967 and 1973) belongs to the victor. Being British, you should know all about this (because Northern Ireland says hi).

Israel is the only country in the history of the modern world that has won land in a war and returned it to the defeated nation in question (Sinai to Egypt, sections of the Golan to Syria) in return for peace agreements. But this is all very basic stuff that you'd know about if you actually lived here.

But please go on. Because the way that you put it, a vast majority of the Southern USA is actually not a part of the USA due to being annexed after the Civil War. Same thing in Northern Ireland with regards to your own country. So make the Nazi Germany comparison. If we're truly like Nazi Germany (as the rest of the world claims), we should probably do something to gain that title. Because I don't see Israelis actively searching out non-Jews and murdering them in cold blood on the streets.

So, while the majority of Palestinian Arabs are peaceful and respect Israel's right to exist, you can't let Palestinian Arabs live in Israel because they'll murder you in your sleep? I don't get how you can hold these mutually exclusive views on the Palestinians.

I don't have bile. I'm not the one who's making out Palestinian Arabs to be so murderous and untrustworthy that you couldn't possibly ever be expected to share a country with them.

First of all, make up your mind. Do they want their own country or do they want ours? They clearly want their own so why would they live in Israel then?

Secondly, we're talking about a nation that constantly attacks us. Missiles. Fucking missiles. Clearly the peace is on their side since the only thing they're bringing to the table is "we won't try to kill you if you do x/y/z". Luckily, they didn't want us to go in this time and that's why a ceasefire went down.

Why does any of this matter? Ok, your neighbours have committed horrible crimes against humanity. That doesn't excuse your own country's flagrant flouting of international law, and illegal seizure of Palestinian land. If Israel is really such a paragon, and Palestinians are so mistreated in neighbouring nations, shouldn't it gladly accept that Palestinian refugees have a right of return?

They're exactly in the areas where they want to be. What right to return? They've claimed Gaza and they have it. They've claimed the West Bank and they share it with us (and are actually OK with doing that, a point that seems to go over your head every time I bring it up). The only thing they've claimed that is fully ours and was won in a war from Jordan is Eastern Jerusalem. "Palestine" never had a claim to it (realistically, they don't even have a claim to the West Bank either).

Here's a quick history lesson for you because you clearly don't get it. Until 1917, the area was under the Ottoman Empire. From 1917 until 1947, it was British. 1947 until 1967 had Jordan in control and from 1967 until today, it's Israeli. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see "Palestinian control" at any point. Jordan never claimed the area (we're talking about stuff like French Hill and Ammunition Hill) in the name of Palestine. They were only using it as a defensive line.

So right to return? It's Israeli land, not Jordanian. If anything, these people should be going to Jordan because that's where their right to return policy applies to. The mother country.

And also, you're holding Israel to a retarded double standard. If you're going to accuse us of crimes against humanity, bring a motion against EVERY Middle Eastern country. I don't see you up in arms about Assad right now. Or the Muslim Brotherhood. Is consistency that hard of a concept for you to accept?

And 28 years ago, Netanyahu said that Palestinians did not have the right to their own state (he's since changed his mind). In my own country, we have MPs, who, thirty years ago, were involved in the terrorist IRA. Even if Hamas claimed to have as their goal the destruction of Israel 30 years ago, I think that such associations can change a great deal over time.

Wait, are we forgetting about November of this year? Where Gaza started raining mortars, we took out Hamas' commander and they responded with trying to bomb the shit out of us? Remember who started it?

For fucks sake, this isn't this complicated. If Gaza don't rain mortars on Gush Katif, we're not going to be destroying their building? A sent missile is an act of war.

If Northern Ireland started shooting London with missiles, what would you do? What would you want to happen?

I'd also like to ask eclipse to close this topic. It's going to go back and forth and just not getting pretty at this point. I'm getting accused of crimes against humanity and at some point, I'm going to go over the top. So rather than a response from Anouleth or dondon, I just want to see this shut down.

[Rehab]

Wait, what's wrong with Al-Jazeera? From what little of them I've watched of their english-language/world news channel, they seemed relatively informative and unopinionated, certainly compared to the U.S. standard.

also Mexico can have Texas back as soon as my family and the sf'ers there leave as far as I'm concerned no, bad Rehab, bad

Edited December 20, 2012 by Rehab

[Anouleth]

I do get the feeling of not wanting to continue the argument, but feeling pressure to type up a big long rebuttal so as not to lose face, and if you really don't want to see my response, I won't post it.