No Warpskip - changes to the Tier List?

[Espinosa]

Marth doesn't need to fullmove every turn in that chapter, he'll just end up a couple spaces away from the boss anyway, might as well keep him back out of danger anyway in that chapter. Wendall can easily attack the boss on time with a reasonable starting position.

edit: i'm probably gonna actually start a no warpskip run sometime in the next few days when i have a spare hour or two, would you be interested in a log?

He's still doing a whole lot of stuff on the way, using Barrier and healing people, chipping at enemies... That takes a lot of organisation and precision in positioning, planning and movement trajectory, and yet dondon says Sorcerors will only get to heal thrice in the whole chapter. I have no issue with the claim that there will be no healing on the first turn (unless somebody consumes a robe on it, which isn't relevant to that one chapter) but why must we be scrupulous everywhere besides when it comes to training Wolf/Sedgar if we do try to raise them?

I enjoyed your last H5 playlog so I'd love to read a no warpskip one if you feel like doing it.

[dondon151]

8 move is still 1 point more than Marth before getting the Boots. Even the least mobile of Wolf/Sedgar's options isn't losing in mobility to unpromoted Barst.

but you're missing the point. strike 1.

barst's unpromoted mobility is a problem, but he is an asset despite that because of his excellent offensive capabilities in a point in the game where you don't have anything better: chapters 2-5. from there it is just a few levels until promotion, but there is no doubt that between chapter 5 and promotion, that is barst's weakest point in the game.

so yes, general is a really, really bad option. at least barst's offense deserves a bit of merit, but general brings absolutely nothing useful to the table unless they are hanging back and playing a very limited offensive role.

Now, Abel, Cain and Hardin don't benefit a whole lot from a Cavalier -> Paladin promotion, though Nabarl and Cain might have Ridersbane access by virtue of promoting and getting lance rank upgrades; mostly, they want a promotion to be able to fly, double as Swordmasters with C+ sword rank and maybe snipe things to avoid counters. Paladin's main improvement over the first tier is that resistance (which Caeda loses if she flies). However, Barst and Ogma want the extra AS, especially Ogma because his offence is nowhere near as good as Barst when neither doubles (and Ogma doesn't double a whole lot after the first few chapters).

doesn't this just mean that ogma is not worth using? navarre really blows in H5 and shouldn't really even be considered except for as a short-term unit.

also lol characters not benefiting a whole lot from being able to fly, that's rich. good one.

So that's a lot of characters wanting a promotion. If you stop worrying about training some of them and give that exp to one of our Horsemen, Wolf or Sedgar, you will have a fourth promoted, competent combat unit before chapter 16.

that's implying that you actually need one. you have a couple of fillers like minerva who do a pretty solid job.

How much do people even use Horseman!Barst by the way? I was really puzzled when you brought it up. Barst will not want to let go of his axe rank, while Wolf/Sedgar don't have useful ranks anywhere and could swap classes by virtue of utility and get by thanks to raw stats alone. You also keep accusing me of supposedly overestimating durability in its importance in this game, but you don't give it any credit for a second, though clearly if you don't warpskip nearly every chapter, survival and raw combat parameters matter a lot more. If only 2-3 characters fight / get the bosskills in warpskip, you just forge them expensive effective weapons with crit and huge Mt bonus, but if everybody in your party has to fight, you won't have enough money to accommodate every character with the right forge.

missed the point again. strike 2.

barst and wolf, sedgar have no personal bow rank. so they are more or less the exact same as horsemen. 10/1 barst has about as much personal stats as wolf for HP at --/9, str at --/11, spd at --/8, and def at --/9. even a unit like jagen, the champion of the earlygame, was only at 5.57 coming out of chapter 12, which is when you get your third promotion item. the conclusion here is that barst makes a better horseman than either wolf or sedgar do.

i don't give an ounce of credit to durability because it simply does not deserve credit when this game can be trivialized by offense. my observation stands unless you can prove me wrong. i have actual evidence to support my claims whereas your theoryFE doesn't hold up in this sort of argument.

Also, in that chapter 6 example you opened up, Wendell has 6 move, 1 less than Bootless Marth. How come is he getting to chip at the boss when Marth is always using his full move every turn when Heroes apparently aren't mobile enough to see any combat?

and once again, missing the point. strike 3, you're out!

He's still doing a whole lot of stuff on the way, using Barrier and healing people, chipping at enemies... That takes a lot of organisation and precision in positioning, planning and movement trajectory, and yet dondon says Sorcerors will only get to heal thrice in the whole chapter. I have no issue with the claim that there will be no healing on the first turn (unless somebody consumes a robe on it, which isn't relevant to that one chapter) but why must we be scrupulous everywhere besides when it comes to training Wolf/Sedgar if we do try to raise them?

he used mend once. sorcs don't have the staff rank for barrier, so wolf and sedgar are SOL there. they also don't have excalibur and therefore do not deserve the frontline position that wendell got in that map.

i am not willing to continue this argument any further because it is like trying to argue that the earth wasn't created in 7 days. please collect some actual evidence before further promulgating your claims.

Edited December 26, 2012 by HORSEBlRD

[Espinosa]

so yes, general is a really, really bad option. at least barst's offense deserves a bit of merit, but general brings absolutely nothing useful to the table unless they are hanging back and playing a very limited offensive role.

It is still an option and one that you will resort to on certain maps, such as the ones we've already discussed, possibly also chapter 7 for stopping the reinforcements in some parts of the map. Who else can be your General when you would choose to use one? Nobody until Barst/Ogma's promotion, and it's dubious you will find this role most appropriate for them.

doesn't this just mean that ogma is not worth using? navarre really blows in H5 and shouldn't really even be considered except for as a short-term unit.

also lol characters not benefiting a whole lot from being able to fly, that's rich. good one.

Would you say Cain and Abel are worth using? Just curious because I want to know where you like to draw the line, because Nabarl is really just Cain with better ranks and a poorer speed growth.

And I said that male set A units desire promotion for the possibility of reclass and not the change from Cavalier to Paladin.

that's implying that you actually need one. you have a couple of fillers like minerva who do a pretty solid job.

But she costs turns.

missed the point again. strike 2.

barst and wolf, sedgar have no personal bow rank. so they are more or less the exact same as horsemen. 10/1 barst has about as much personal stats as wolf for HP at --/9, str at --/11, spd at --/8, and def at --/9. even a unit like jagen, the champion of the earlygame, was only at 5.57 coming out of chapter 12, which is when you get your third promotion item. the conclusion here is that barst makes a better horseman than either wolf or sedgar do.

The conclusion is that Barst makes a better Horseman than Wolf or Sedgar at the exact time he's promoted. Your example still remains confusing to me, because I am having difficulty thinking of a time when Barst would prefer going Horseman to going Hero, though certainly, as a Hero Barst would beat both Wolf and Sedgar due to being close to Silver Axe access. However, a Barst that's promoted (speaking about levels gained, not stats accumulated) that early will not last you long enough, since he will now level up as slowly as Wolf and Sedgar but his growths being immeasurably lower prevent him from improving much after the promotion. Why do you only single out Wolf and Sedgar when it comes to promoted units who have trouble gaining exp fast? This is not the first time where you give them the double standard. Clearly Jeigan and Wendell don't have any growth potential and aren't the best comparison for that reason.

he used mend once. sorcs don't have the staff rank for barrier, so wolf and sedgar are SOL there. they also don't have excalibur and therefore do not deserve the frontline position that wendell got in that map.

They don't have to imitate Wendell's role, and both Wendell and one of Wolf/Sedgar could be used on that map. A frontline position isn't needed for a Sorceror, but a Lena with extra mobility will not be entirely useless.

i don't give an ounce of credit to durability because it simply does not deserve credit when this game can be trivialized by offense. my observation stands unless you can prove me wrong. i have actual evidence to support my claims whereas your theoryFE doesn't hold up in this sort of argument.

i am not willing to continue this argument any further because it is like trying to argue that the earth wasn't created in 7 days. please collect some actual evidence before further promulgating your claims.

How exactly are you trivialising the game with offence when you deny longterm potential and use of several higher-end characters (Ogma and Nabarl, possibly more that you haven't cared to mention)? Not everything on your way is 3-4 characters you OHKO with forged Ridersbanes and Hammers.

I don't think you're being very fair there at all, especially considering your own experience draws from a type of playthrough where units are not only deprived of a chance to grow because bosskiller and Marth are being warped to end the chapter prematurely but they can't possibly grow even if they wanted to due to your hacking personal and class growth rates to be entirely absent from the gameplay. I believe the inertia of being in the mindset of that playstyle is hard to not notice here. It's also not very fair to deny me from making claims on basically anything, because I could technically claim to have two experiences, mine and yours since I played through H5 (albeit with far less stellar turn counts) and watched/read you play it, so I am by no means theorycrafting in the dark here. Comparison to your playthrough also sheds light on difficulties you weren't obliged to face, which grow very numerous with Warp taken out of the picture.

I understand much of your discourse is about fucking around with my (and whoever else you may be arguing with) head and this carnival culture element is as amusing to me as it is to you no doubt; however, it's not helping. You ask for evidence and since whatever I've played isn't enough to you, it can only be done by doing an ambitious run through the game without Warp, aiming at lowest turns, so there will be such evidence, but I can't extract it within an instant like pulling a rabbit from a hat. Horace is very reliable when it comes to LTC and we know that he's capable of finishing multiple runs with impeccable efficiency performance, and if nothing else, I will attempt the run myself as soon as I'm done with the runs I've been playing.

Edited December 26, 2012 by Espinosa

[dondon151]

It is still an option and one that you will resort to on certain maps, such as the ones we've already discussed, possibly also chapter 7 for stopping the reinforcements in some parts of the map. Who else can be your General when you would choose to use one? Nobody until Barst/Ogma's promotion, and it's dubious you will find this role most appropriate for them.

and you really don't need one aside from chapter 6... you can just block most of the forts with fliers in chapter 7 and more or less do without a general in every other map, unless you decide to get lazy.

Would you say Cain and Abel are worth using? Just curious because I want to know where you like to draw the line, because Nabarl is really just Cain with better ranks and a poorer speed growth.

cain will have had ~3 chapters' worth of EXP by the time that navarre is recruited, so his bases are more or less strictly better, plus navarre's spd growth blows

so cain is really quite a bit better. whether you use abel and cain in the long term is a different question, but they're really all you have, and even at 10/1 they're a bit better than palla stat-wise.

But she costs turns.

so which is it: are we recruiting minerva and letting wolf, sedgar tank enemy reinforcements, or are we ignoring minerva and finishing the map before those reinforcements have a chance to catch up?

The conclusion is that Barst makes a better Horseman than Wolf or Sedgar at the exact time he's promoted.

well horseman kind of sucks before then

Your example still remains confusing to me, because I am having difficulty thinking of a time when Barst would prefer going Horseman to going Hero, though certainly, as a Hero Barst would beat both Wolf and Sedgar due to being close to Silver Axe access.

barst goes horseman when you need a horseman

However, a Barst that's promoted (speaking about levels gained, not stats accumulated) that early will not last you long enough, since he will now level up as slowly as Wolf and Sedgar but his growths being immeasurably lower prevent him from improving much after the promotion.

he didn't suck quite as much getting there, though

Why do you only single out Wolf and Sedgar when it comes to promoted units who have trouble gaining exp fast? This is not the first time where you give them the double standard. Clearly Jeigan and Wendell don't have any growth potential and aren't the best comparison for that reason.

what double standard? the only double standard is the one that you fabricated in your head. jagen and wendell don't give a whit about EXP gain because they have valuable assets that make them useful immediately. wolf, sedgar rely solely on EXP to get good. they are growth units. the fact that they are pre-promoted doesn't change that fact.

They don't have to imitate Wendell's role, and both Wendell and one of Wolf/Sedgar could be used on that map. A frontline position isn't needed for a Sorceror, but a Lena with extra mobility will not be entirely useless.

reclassing units to a staff-using class is so 2009, back when curate -> sniper was all the rage.

How exactly are you trivialising the game with offence when you deny longterm potential and use of several higher-end characters (Ogma and Nabarl, possibly more that you haven't cared to mention)? Not everything on your way is 3-4 characters you OHKO with forged Ridersbanes and Hammers.

actually most enemies in this game are weak to some sort of effective weapon, and the ones that aren't are mostly archers and mages.

It's also not very fair to deny me from making claims on basically anything, because I could technically claim to have two experiences, mine and yours since I played through H5 (albeit with far less stellar turn counts) and watched/read you play it, so I am by no means theorycrafting in the dark here. Comparison to your playthrough also sheds light on difficulties you weren't obliged to face, which grow very numerous with Warp taken out of the picture.

you didn't watch me play my new playthrough with lower turncounts and more aggressive strategies, so my insistence that your claims hold no water makes perfect sense...

edit: oh also the warpskip tier list needs to be updated anyway

Edited December 28, 2012 by HORSEBlRD

[Silith]

I get the feeling that chapter 10 is going to turn pretty nasty without warp. Those reinforcements are some bul on H5. I had to sit them out letting my uberdraugh guard the entrance.

[Espinosa]

cain will have had ~3 chapters' worth of EXP by the time that navarre is recruited, so his bases are more or less strictly better, plus navarre's spd growth blows

so cain is really quite a bit better. whether you use abel and cain in the long term is a different question, but they're really all you have, and even at 10/1 they're a bit better than palla stat-wise.

I think one would could look at it the same way as Sue vs Shin in FE6, where using one that starts out poorly could replace the one that joins later (in Nabarl's case, better sword rank and durability), except this maybe isn't a good comparison because Sue is replaceable in most chapters she exists (besides 7 and 8 where you kinda need her I guess) while Cain is forced and will level up whether you want it or not, the only question is if you're going to focus on raising him. Or maybe Alan/Lance vs Noah could be a better comparison.

so which is it: are we recruiting minerva and letting wolf, sedgar tank enemy reinforcements, or are we ignoring minerva and finishing the map before those reinforcements have a chance to catch up?

Depends on our policy for recruitment / gaidens I guess. Once again, unless you're a priori predisposed to deprive Wolf/Sedgar of the exp investment, they could get some in either scenario. If we recruit Maria and Minerva, they tank on a fort; if we go for raw LTC, they might as well snipe Minerva/other Draco for the experience.

what double standard? the only double standard is the one that you fabricated in your head. jagen and wendell don't give a whit about EXP gain because they have valuable assets that make them useful immediately. wolf, sedgar rely solely on EXP to get good. they are growth units. the fact that they are pre-promoted doesn't change that fact.

They're no Will or Nino though, with options to tank, hit for decent damage without being doubled, snipe a flying enemy or run healbot, right off the bat without any base stats just on behalf of promote class bases alone (which makes them about as good as your unpromoted units who do have the bases).

reclassing units to a staff-using class is so 2009, back when curate -> sniper was all the rage.

I'm not suggesting to level them up as Sorcerors, though. If we know ahead of time that we're not fighting Gharnef or having Etzel do it instead of Lena, Sorceror!Wolf/Sedgar could function as a more mobile Lena in chapters where your strats don't include her using any other staves.

actually most enemies in this game are weak to some sort of effective weapon, and the ones that aren't are mostly archers and mages.

An effective weapon is not a solution to everything even when it works (since the game does seem to consist of 60% AKs and Cavs and their promoted forms); you'll need either additional chip or a very good strength stat to OHKO some of the promoted ones without really expensive forges, and the extra strength is hard to meet if you promote at 10/0. In cases like Fire Manaketes, unless you're a Swordmaster Caeda, you're probably not doubling and you're most certainly not OHKOing with a Wyrmslayer forge. They get terribly common as generic enemies endgame, so you'll need several characters capable of tanking hits and 2RKOing or something of the sort. Snipers, Swordmasters and Heroes are also common in chapters like 24x and Endgame, with AS that's impossible to double if you're promoting characters as early as you're saying.

you didn't watch me play my new playthrough with lower turncounts and more aggressive strategies, so my insistence that your claims hold no water makes perfect sense...

It's hard to argue with opinions based on knowledge drawn from a playthrough of a different kind, especially one you cannot share. Your aggressive strategies were limited to specific portions of the map, namely bosses and obtaining resources to beat the further bosses. Horace's new run should shed new light on what difficulties full, focused LTC in FE DS with the warpless rule would pose before the player, and how much space there would be to obtain resources necessary for overcoming all of them.

edit: oh also the warpskip tier list needs to be updated anyway

It would be nice if you could make a new one.

[eclipse]

I think one would could look at it the same way as Sue vs Shin in FE6, where using one that starts out poorly could replace the one that joins later (in Nabarl's case, better sword rank and durability), except this maybe isn't a good comparison because Sue is replaceable in most chapters she exists (besides 7 and 8 where you kinda need her I guess) while Cain is forced and will level up whether you want it or not, the only question is if you're going to focus on raising him. Or maybe Alan/Lance vs Noah could be a better comparison.

An effective weapon is not a solution to everything even when it works (since the game does seem to consist of 60% AKs and Cavs and their promoted forms); you'll need either additional chip or a very good strength stat to OHKO some of the promoted ones without really expensive forges, and the extra strength is hard to meet if you promote at 10/0. In cases like Fire Manaketes, unless you're a Swordmaster Caeda, you're probably not doubling and you're most certainly not OHKOing with a Wyrmslayer forge. They get terribly common as generic enemies endgame, so you'll need several characters capable of tanking hits and 2RKOing or something of the sort. Snipers, Swordmasters and Heroes are also common in chapters like 24x and Endgame, with AS that's impossible to double if you're promoting characters as early as you're saying.

Two things:

1. Why are Cain and Navarre being compared on anything other than looks? Navarre's gonna be slow as hell if reclassed to Cavalier, and Cain should have some lance WEXP to his name by the time Navarre's recruited.

2. Here's where I remember Manaketes.

Chapter 9 - you have Silvers, use them

Chapter 11 - avoidable, but takes some thought (I have more issues with the Sniper than him)

Chapter 12 - avoidable

Chapter 17 - very avoidable, except for the boss

Chapter 19 - recruitable

Chapter 24 - blick the boss during the first few turns (snipe him with Gradivus or something), and the remaining ones should be manageable (something like six, I don't remember the exact number), especially with the terrain/a shop that sells dragon-slaying weapons nearby

Chapter 24x - probably not going here, and even if we did, they're WAY easier than the guys in Chapter 24

Endgame - four start on the map (the guys to the left have it the worst), and I'd be more than happy to warp someone on top of the staircase that generates the reinforcement ones

I don't know how the Geosphere factors in (if at all), but given that there's only two manakete-heavy chapters in the game (not counting two required boss battles), I'd be willing to use it to make life easier for myself.

[Balcerzak]

Expected turncount:
01  10 turns  06   6 turns  11   7 turns  16   5 turns  21   1 turn
02   6 turns  07   4 turns  12   6 turns  17   3 turns  22   1 turn
03   6 turns  08   5 turns  13   3 turns  18   7 turns  23   1 turn
04   5 turns  09   4 turns  14   6 turns  19   1 turn   24   1 turn
05   4 turns  10   7 turns  15   2 turns  20   3 turns  End  1 turn

Total turncount: 105 turns 

i don't doubt for a second that marth can use his full move on every map after chapter 2. (these turncounts are with warp.)

Your ch18 count doesn't reflect a full-move Marth, unless I'm mistaken. I'm not bothering to check any others but all I'm really going for here is to show that you're exaggerating slightly. That said, nearly all maps should have Marth moving all, or nearly all of his movement every turn, so I do agree with the principle you're espousing. I might personally have set the benchmark at Ch4, instead of Ch2, personally, but that may just be due to my latest experience with lowturning H5 being one from a very skewed perspective.

10-turning the first map? That's really impressive. Also don't forget that you warpskipped all the chapters with Brave enemies. Your characters are probably not limited to player phase attacking and want to survive a round of combat when facing one of such enemies on enemy phase. Wolf/Sedgar are about the only ones with sufficient bulk to expose themselves to more than one, besides units like General!Darros who are far harder to train due to not having a reclass option that immediately grants them some sort of utility.

Wolf and Sedgar also do have Sorceror on maps where they are far from the next level-up and could gain experience by spamming staves without touching any enemies (or they COULD counter chip something on EP with a tome, why the hell not).

Oh, and 9-move Marth will get in all sort of trouble on H5 if an equally mobile unit doesn't rush in to redirect some enemy attacks.

For a rough idea on turncounts where dondon clearly warped, some reasonably efficient numbers from a set of other completions.

Ch	TCA	TCB	dondon proposed
4	8	7	5
7	7	10	4
9	7	6	4
10	9	8	7
11	11	9	7
15	5	5	2
16	8	7	5
19	6	6	1
20	5	5	3
21	3	3	1
22	9	7	1
23	7	7	1
24	4	4	1
25	8	8	1

Ch7 obviously depends also on recruiting or not recruiting Bantu, and what conditions are laid upon the tierlist (all-recruits, strict ltc, etc.).

I may or may not actually even look at the list of units, but these were just some general observations.

[eclipse]

Let's see if I remember my drafts correctly.

Chapters with wiggle room are Chapters 7, 14, 17 (after the first move), 18, and 19. The rest of the chapters are a bit more strict with movement, if you're going for draft-style turns. If you're not, then count Chapters 4, 5, 6, 8, 10 (no princesses), 22 (after the first wave), and 24 (since the boss can be killed fairly early, which will stop all reinforcements, IIRC). Chapters 11 and 13 are rough in their own right.

[Espinosa]

I'm pretty sure the 7-turn in that chapter is due to having to wait for Est, and dondon always recruits everybody on his runs (except the gaiden exclusives on this one I guess). Marth could move further, and in that run you'd likely just warp him alongside the bosskiller if you didn't care about recruitment.

Balcerzak, I think I watched a H5 draft from you on YouTube, is it included in the table you posted? It is a useful reference nevertheless.

1. Why are Cain and Navarre being compared on anything other than looks? Navarre's gonna be slow as hell if reclassed to Cavalier, and Cain should have some lance WEXP to his name by the time Navarre's recruited.

2. Here's where I remember Manaketes.

They have the same reclass options, similar availability and so could end up as two cavs specialising in swords. Nabarl's speed tends to be poorer as levels accumulate, but it's hard to say whether one would be doubling where the other would fail to. I think on Horace's current PT, Cain has proc'd Strength on every single one of his level-ups, so he's most likely staying on the party for good...

Cain can wield a Steel Sword and mostly deals with axe users before Nabarl arrives, so he won't be throwing Javelins for a while, nor will he wield Ridersbane before promotion.

With Manaketes, they are terribly fast and while sufficiently trained characters should be able to take a hit from them, they might not take both, and only absurdly speed-blessed SMs/Heroes/Caeda will be doubling them with an effective weapon. I also think in case of Jake's chapter, the manakete is still threatening Marth because he hasn't got the +2 move from Boots just yet so he could end up in range of the Manakete before he is able to seize.

I think we shouldn't disregard 24x entirely, since a playthrough is arguably more 'complete' if you go to every chapter, maybe even moreso than recruiting every single character (and in SD if we include the gaiden ones, that does entail killing many off whether you like it or not).

Edited December 30, 2012 by Espinosa

[General Horace]

I think when dondon said max move after chapter 2, he included getting the devil axe in chapter 3. Marth pretty much can max move every turn if you grab it (and you should)

Even if Cain was at 8 Strength instead of 10 in my current playthrough, very little would change his performance. He's actually used the steel sword I think twice through the three chapters, so if he's stuck at 7 strength, he could just easily upgrade to steel to duplicate his performance thus far.

[dondon151]

I also think in case of Jake's chapter, the manakete is still threatening Marth because he hasn't got the +2 move from Boots just yet so he could end up in range of the Manakete before he is able to seize.

count your squares plz

i guess the devil axe does technically cost a turn but there aren't really any other options for the boss

Edited December 30, 2012 by dondon151

[Espinosa]

Are you saying it's the Devil Axe that will enable Marth to max move in the next chapters, or that it's the last time that Marth doesn't move his full move for reasons other than recruitment?

I'm also wondering about the healers on this run. Certainly some are helpful, 6 move ones being particularly useful (Wendell, Boah, anybody with access to Bishop especially). Physic is very limited so you don't want to spam it more than what would ensure survival. Spamming Warp, whether helpful or not, could be useful for getting your Cleric to glorious levels and hopefully stats as well. Hammerne is available a bit late, and could be used to repair forged Wing Spear and other forged effective weapons that are too expensive to shit out, since we probably don't care about more Warp at that point.

Lena seems like the best at Gharnef-killing of all growth units, with the highest sum of magic + resistance (her negative base doesn't stop her at all).

There's also Xane, whom you always want to deploy and whom you want to be useful without taking experience from real units, and it's an interesting topic what its optimal contributions would be, though its flexibility should warrant it a very high ranking on the tier list, hindered only by its late availability and the necessity to lose at least one player phase.

count your squares plz

tbh, I have no clue where Marth would end up on that map, since it depends on how aggressively we're advancing. Hence the more doubtful modal verb used in my statement. Okay, I just counted squares and Marth is exactly at the tip of the Manakete's range assuming he uses his max move during the last two turns.

i guess the devil axe does technically cost a turn but there aren't really any other options for the boss

Can you pass Nabarl's Killing Edge to Ogma if you don't choke the point and let Nabarl and others out and then do a trade chain for a 5-turn clear? I'm not sure if you'd be able to deal with the enemies from both west and east fast enough, but nobody says you should be even touching the eastern fighters and thief if you worry about turns first and foremost.

Edited December 30, 2012 by Espinosa

[dondon151]

Are you saying it's the Devil Axe that will enable Marth to max move in the next chapters, or that it's the last time that Marth doesn't move his full move for reasons other than recruitment?

huh

tbh, I have no clue where Marth would end up on that map, since it depends on how aggressively we're advancing. Hence the more doubtful modal verb used in my statement. Okay, I just counted squares and Marth is exactly at the tip of the Manakete's range assuming he uses his max move during the last two turns.

count again

Can you pass Nabarl's Killing Edge to Ogma if you don't choke the point and let Nabarl and others out and then do a trade chain for a 5-turn clear? I'm not sure if you'd be able to deal with the enemies from both west and east fast enough, but nobody says you should be even touching the eastern fighters and thief if you worry about turns first and foremost.

i did pass navarre's KE; the problem was that i didn't have anyone but ogma who could attack hyman without getting killed

[Espinosa]

huh

Was responding to this before you ninja'd with your post:

I think when dondon said max move after chapter 2, he included getting the devil axe in chapter 3. Marth pretty much can max move every turn if you grab it (and you should)

i did pass navarre's KE; the problem was that i didn't have anyone but ogma who could attack hyman without getting killed

Unless I math failed due to not sleeping tonight, Killing Edge crit from Ogma + Jagen's Silver Lance is enough to KO the boss.

[dondon151]

Unless I math failed due to not sleeping tonight, Killing Edge crit from Ogma + Jagen's Silver Lance is enough to KO the boss.

you math failed

[Espinosa]

you math failed

9x3 was calculated as 33 somehow... It seems you're 2 HP short on KOing, solvable by having Ogma proc strength on his way to the boss (he could grab the chapter 2 bosskill for help with this).

[dondon151]

you still math failed

[Espinosa]

Okay, let'd do it properly this time:

Ogma w/ Killing Edge

6 + 8 x 1 + 1 (C Swords) - (5 + 2) = 8

8x3 = 24 damage

27 dmg with a strength proc

I forgot you dun get WT bonus without A ranking the weapon ¬_¬

Jagen w/ Silver Lance

7 + 13 x 1 + 0 (WTD) - 1 (WTD w/ A axes) - (5 + 2) = 12

39/40-41 damage

We'd have to reset for the boss to have 40 HP and have Jagen proc strength to have him KO. The latter we're probably not doing. 14 AS doubles everyone besides Ogma and Nabarl (who won't be there unless warped) and Shiida, who won't be there due to recruiting Nabarl. So not only would you have to proc a KE proc with Ogma, but you'd also need an additional sword chipper to dodge one of the Hand Axe attacks for Jagen to get the bosskill (boss should have less than 60 displayed hit against a sword user like Cain or Abel).

Sounds doable with growths, on paper...

[General Horace]

I think the main issue would be busting through the other enemies on turn 5, and Ogma's starting position means he has to fullmove every single turn.

Which is probably not happening.

[Espinosa]

Can the starting positions be modified by sacrificing a unit in chapter 2? I recall beamcrash utilising this strat in the early FE6 chapters.

[eclipse]

Starting positions can be modified, but I don't know who you'd have to kill for that to work. Either way, Ogma running head-first into all those Fighters is bad for his health.

[Espinosa]

Cavs/Jagen are always there to create walls, and the enemies should prioritise Bord/Cord/Darros due to their lower defence when they're around. Also, I like how discussing the tier list went nowhere and digressed into lowest turns possible strategies discussion.

[Silith]

And not only that they are all on strategies of chapters you don't use Warp in anyways.

What I want to know is what chapters become really different without warp. (Aside from the final where you actually have to look out for doors and walk to the boss)

Is it possible to save Camus in warpskip or does walking around take too long?

In which maps do yuo decide that going for villages is going to take too long to be worth taking the detour with Marth?

[riariadne]

Is it possible to save Camus in warpskip or does walking around take too long?

Going around is much longer, and Hammerne is much less relevant without Warp. I doubt wasting time on it would be worth it. Besides, Gradivus is a good weapon.