What have we learned today?

[Esau of Isaac]

How can you validate your own position without proving it? If what you say is true, then fireemblemfan4ever's result is just as valid as yours and mine.

That is correct. It's just as objectively valid.

Edit: Check third response's rebuttal. If this is speaking of his approach to the scientific method then this is obviously not relevant as we are talking about different things.

If the way you get where you are not does matter, then any conclusion is just as valid as another. There is no inherently better conclusion. You were just arguing for the scientific method in the discussion thread, so I assume you understand where I am coming from.

What are you talking about? If I am arguing that the method to reach a conclusion for a behavioral characteristic doesn't matter, I am not saying the conclusion doesn't matter. I am saying the means by which it got there doesn't matter.

In any event I am not trying to say that the ends always justify the means, even though I believe I may have said it. Rather I am trying to dispel the notion that it's morally deplorable to change someone because you know what will cause them to do so, even if the methods to get there involve negativity of some manner.

Science is not a collection of assertions and conclusions; it is the method that caused people to arrive at them. If you take away the method, then it does become like a religion. Remember the harsh persecution and bullying that Galileo faced when he said that the sun was at the center of the solar system? The method he used to arrive at his conclusion was paramount. Without his method, the conclusion would be worthless, and the bullies would be justified in persecuting him. If he had succumbed to the bullying of the so-called intellectuals and scientists of his day, we could be using hundreds of formulas to explain why everything is so convoluted in relation to the earth. History has shown that it was in the best interests of both the bullies and Galileo to consider the method rather than to stick with their previously accumulated knowledge.

This has absolutely nothing to do with what I was saying. That I am comfortable with most methodologies to reach a conclusion in a person's behavior doesn't in any way suggest I'm just as fine with doing so with the scientific method.

I want to avoid that level of arrogance at all costs. I will never be so sure that I am right that convincing others justifies intellectually dishonest practices.

My entire point is that behaving in a manner to cause another to reach a desired goal is an intellectually honest practice. Or at least it's intellectually honest when analyzed from the view of someone attempting to cause a change in another. You could certainly say it's intellectually dishonest since it doesn't treat the argument on the same level as all others, but I and most others give fuck all about that since it's an idiotic argument raised from someone very obviously acting as though they are educated when they are not. If you treat with a shred of decency that's your prerogative, but I won't pity people that descend on him in a cacophony in the same sense I wouldn't for someone who put forth the argument that heliocentrism is very obviously false.

Edited January 27, 2013 by Esau of Isaac

[Makaze]

That is correct. It's just as objectively valid.

Edit: Check third response's rebuttal. If this is speaking of his approach to the scientific method then this is obviously not relevant as we are talking about different things.

What are you talking about? If I am arguing that the method to reach a conclusion for a behavioral characteristic doesn't matter, I am not saying the conclusion doesn't matter. I am saying the means by which it got there doesn't matter.

In any event I am not trying to say that the ends always justify the means, even though I believe I may have said it. Rather I am trying to dispel the notion that it's morally deplorable to change someone because you know what will cause them to do so, even if the methods to get there involve negativity of some manner.

This has absolutely nothing to do with what I was saying. That I am comfortable with most methodologies to reach a conclusion in a person's behavior doesn't in any way suggest I'm just as fine with doing so with the scientific method.

My entire point is that behaving in a manner to cause another to reach a desired goal is an intellectually honest practice. Or at least it's intellectually honest when analyzed from the view of someone attempting to cause a change in another. You could certainly say it's intellectually dishonest since it doesn't treat the argument on the same level as all others, but I and most others give fuck all about that since it's an idiotic argument raised from someone very obviously acting as though they are educated when they are not. If you treat with a shred of decency that's your prerogative, but I won't pity people that descend on him in a cacophony in the same sense I wouldn't for someone who put forth the argument that heliocentrism is very obviously false.

To me the point is not to change the other, it is also to understand them for myself. One of us will be proven wrong eventually. A big difference between us might be that I will argue the subject for days if I have to. I have infinite patience when it comes to discussion and I am willing to take the long way around to find out if he actually has any valid points underneath all of that emotion or if he is just bluffing.

I see resorting to those methods as similar to the 'ignore him because he will not change' conclusion. That is a self-righteous standpoint that assumes you have nothing to lose by doing so, that you have nothing to learn from the other person. That arrogance will lead me to a narrow world-view.

It isn't that I hold him in high regard, quite the opposite, but I do not think so highly of myself that I cannot be taught by someone, no matter how incompetent.

Edited January 27, 2013 by Makaze

[Rehab]

Aaaaaurgh

Today I learned that I, too, can disagree with somebody without knowing what they're saying

[Inactive Account]

what the fuck did i just read skim

[Komeiji Koishi]

what the fuck did i just read skim

Something something women and makeup, something something their choice, something something talk for about this for about 5 pages.

Tl;dr I have no bloody clue.

[Prims]

Aaaaaurgh

Today I learned that I, too, can disagree with somebody without knowing what they're saying

has that guy never looked in the mirror, thought "damn, i look good today" and felt self-confident as a result

by the time the second part came around i basically dozed off and stopped reading

[Nightmare]

My entire point is that behaving in a manner to cause another to reach a desired goal is an intellectually honest practice.

I think one of the points in Makaze's original post was that he didn't want to hammer something into someone's head because he thinks it's right, even if it's been proven, because that just makes the hammered person believe in something without even knowing how or why again, and that's something I agree with. On another note, bullying (or whatever else you want to call it) someone in this manner feels, to me, like something that is not devoid of personal agendas. That is to say, said bully might believe that this is a good way to teach others (small off-topic: if this is the usual/only way bully can deal with such situations, then bully is pretty narrow-minded and does not know many options, at least regarding the topic of interest), but, though I can't say with certainty for everyone, there is also much personal enjoyment derived from doing this. I think the man who can analyse his opponents and reach to each of them through the way most appropriate, when taking the person's personality and beliefs into consideration, is superior in intellect and wisdom.

[Makaze]

Aaaaaurgh

Today I learned that I, too, can disagree with somebody without knowing what they're saying

I'm impressed, he/she makes very good points.

This coming from a hardcore feminist, mind you. The author does not strike me as sexist beyond objective observation of what women actually do, statistically. They strike me as someone with standards and demands. They condemn women for not living out their convictions. They condemn focusing on petty social issues while ground level rape culture is not challenged. When a woman is raped, most women as well as men do nothing to stop it.

This author strikes me as a feminist, indeed.

"I only have one question: Why don't they just rise up and kill the whites?"

I suggest reading the article in full instead of skimming. Withhold judgment until you finish it. Humans are weak. There is nothing wrong with acknowledging hard truths.

Edited January 27, 2013 by Makaze

[Rehab]

That part makes some sense, at least as far as a "wake up sheeple" call can go. In particular it made me think of the female reporter who was gang-raped in a crowd in Egypt some months ago, and how a crowd of IIRC mostly women came to her aid and chased off the attackers. Also, an instance, also in Egypt, where a past victim of rape was being blatantly followed at night in her car by the kind of endgame-level creeper who could say "I can do whatever I want to you" with a look alone, but was fortunate enough to ask for help from a McDonalds drivethrough, which had the entire establishment and its patrons (all/mostly men IIRC) go outside and stand in a ring around the creeper's car, and apparently prevent anything from happening.

I have to admit the author has voiced more than one idea (across, the 4 or so posts I've read/partially read so far) that I think could be genuinely insightful, but many more times than once he (?) says something that sounds either so cynical and/or hateful that it probably came from somebody on death row's fast track, or like it's based on an assumption or reference I can't recognize and just ends up sounding like Nietzsche on a really bad trip, both of which seemed to come up so hard and fast I didn't have time to register them so that I could pick them out. I mean the whole makeup thing? The fuck was even the point? Or the many points, not sure just how much I was supposed to take in there?

Then I read the comments in a couple and chaos fucking reigned

Now that I've calmed the fuck down a little, I think the dude makes some sense if the writing is taken as being intentionally provocative for the sake of generating thought, but it seems like sometimes he (?) makes an earnest little aside asserting that "no I'm actually totally serious and we're really all fucked, including you, yes you, 'progressives,' you know who you are"

And I can't do it, I can't roll into that sea again

Just don't know if I can do it all again, she said, it's true

e: Rehab calm the fuck down dude

Yeah okay I'm good now

Edited January 28, 2013 by Rehab

[Inactive Account]

let's make this topic be about old republic again i can talk about that for literally ever

rehab what classes do you play?

[Rehab]

Yes let's do

I have like 5 dudes on the Shadowlands, of which I've put the most time into an Inquisitor healer at 40 (favorite so far, one might guess) and an Agent sniper at 19, who I should really learn to play better at some point, nice story so far. (Also a Consular, Knight and Trooper I haven't got off Coruscant yet.)

Just made a Smuggler on Jedi Covenant, more importantly. Started off another healer, hear the story gets good etc. Can't decide whether to try to get a Bounty Hunter or Warrior off the ground next or to actually stick with somebody for a while longer than normal. Who're your dudes/the ones you're liking/having the most fun playing so far?

Incidentally, today I have had it confirmed that the consolidation of servers has lead to a rather larger number of interesting* player conversations taking place than I am used to, and with greater frequency.

*weed-based

Edited January 28, 2013 by Rehab

[Inactive Account]

I have four dudes on Jedi Covenant: lv40 Knight (Sentinel) that I play most of the time, an Agent (Operative) hanging out in the teens somewhere that I mostly play when I'm going to group with other people, and then a Smuggler and an Inquisitor at like... 9 and 7 respectively I think? But I can tell those are going to be a lot of fun from a story standpoint, so I'll probably play more of them at some point. I just passed a super dramatic point in the Knight's story but I've found that my enthusiasm sort of depends on what planet I'm supposed to be on at the time (bluh bluh huge Taris and Belsavis). Knight is also fun because she's less squishy than the other three at the moment so it's easier to be a reckless derp and go exploring Imperial territory for the map exp.

(Though, there was that one time when I was playing a heroic mission on Agent and we all decided to get down to the bottom of a canyon via rockclimbing rather than fighting our way through some mooks to reach the lift... that was hilarious...)

Basically I put way more parkour into this game than the devs intended me to.

Also lol general chat. I am very glad I figured out how to turn it off, because while it is amusingly stonerish at times it also gets the occasional political argument or they start talking about spoilers for whatever thing.

Edited January 28, 2013 by kdanger

[Inactive Account]

got the esseles flashpoint on smuggler if you're up for it

[Rehab]

Argh, yesterday I spent way too much time getting a warrior to Dromund Kaas between checking the thread early in the morning and stopping, sorry, ridiculously late on my part. The good news is my Scoundrel finally feels kinda like a healer, so I'd love to tomorrow, if it'd still be okay.

In learning, or rather relearning news: either biology is easier than I remember (unlikely), or I'm older than I remember (more likely). Also whaddayoumean barrier bubbling isn't an ability every class in this game gets

[Inactive Account]

yussss

funnily enough i also have the lv10 flashpoint on my inquisitor if you want to do that

but yeah

tomorrow afternoon/evening probably

names are Felixandra (smuggler)/Ceidan (inquisitor)

also today I learned that it's my probability prof's style to talk for an hour on exam days and then give us an "exam" that really just amounts to a super easy quiz I AM OKAY WITH THIS

also today I learned that I have reclaimed my desk at work, success

[Esau of Isaac]

Man I've been wanting to finish TOR for awhile so that I could see the Revan bits and beat the main story on my Jedi Knight, but I don't want to pay for a sub, spend very much time, or go through the lame hassle that is the FTP mechanics they put in.

Oh well.

[Inactive Account]

I've had a slightly less shitty time of it because I accidentally wound up with a Preferred account instead of a regular Free one, and iirc it only costs spending five bucks on any given thing (cough cartel coins) to upgrade to Preferred status. Iunno if that's helpful or not.

also lololol I'm pretty sure this game is going to spoil the hell out of the KOTOR games for me if I keep playing it. (It took me ages to get the KOTOR games and then I have to play things in order sometimes and the first one doesn't seem to have aged all that well from an interface standpoint and)

(I'm not past Taris yet)

(To be fair I think Taris might just be the worst planet ever in any iteration)

[Freohr Datia]

For once, I am agreeing with Makaze in something

As usual, I agree with Night x3

[Esau of Isaac]

If you think Taris is bad you're just going to love Peragus in KotOR II. Speaking of that, you probably won't have to worry about TOR ruining it for you since they kind of rewrote the canon of it for the MMO. In my opinion they ruined that entire plotline if one were to take their TOR canon as true in their mind. Which I don't, since I absolutely adored the second game's plot.

Also while the interface is kind of clunky (and was at the time of its initial release) KotOR is genuinely one of the best western RPGs to date. After you get to Dantooine it picks up pretty well. And outside of Manaan, which I personally liked but most seemed not to, the rest of the game is mostly smooth sailing.

[Constable Reggie]

Also while the interface is kind of clunky (and was at the time of its initial release) KotOR is genuinely one of the best western RPGs to date. After you get to Dantooine it picks up pretty well. And outside of Manaan, which I personally liked but most seemed not to, the rest of the game is mostly smooth sailing.

I can't look past the stupid dice rolling system and combat in general, vertically-fixed (ie omg I can't see fucking shit and the controls feel awful) camera, and I'm not a big fan of star wars outside of the original trilogy. Convince me that my $2.50 wasn't put to waste and that I should play through the whole thing.

Also Fallout New Vegas is the best western rpg to date

Edited February 1, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Esau of Isaac]

I can't look past the stupid dice rolling system and combat in general, vertically-fixed (ie omg I can't see fucking shit and the controls feel awful) camera, and I'm not a big fan of star wars outside of the original trilogy. Convince me that my $2.50 wasn't put to waste and that I should play through the whole thing.

Because the dice-rolling system is internalized for the most part and easy enough to understand that it blends fairly seamlessly to normal combat. The interface is eh, but it's easy to deal with unless you're outrageous about camera control, and it's probably the most faithful adaptation thematically of the original trilogy to date.

Also Fallout New Vegas is the best western rpg to date

I think it's up there but I liked KotOR more.

[Inactive Account]

anyway Rehab just ping me when you want to do stuff, I'll be on either Felixandra or Michaeli (my knight) in which case I can switch over when pinged