Class balance

[Rhaegar Targaryen]

To begin, let's establish a postgame standard based solely on stats. This assumes infinite class changes to maximize stats and skill combinations. Therefore, the standard will be equal to the sum of the Grandmaster's stat caps, minus HP and Lck, since all standard, promoted classes have identical such caps (80 and 45, respectively).

80 + 40 + 40 + 40 + 40 + 45 + 40 + 40 = 365

Subtract the HP and Lck caps

365 - 80 - 45 = 240

The max stat total--or MST--of the Grandmaster is 240. Let's call this value G.

Now let's list each class by MST, bearing in mind that standard, promoted, mounted units have 8 Mov, 2 greater than the 6 Mov of standard, promoted, non-mounted units.

Standard classes:

Great Lord (M): 236, or G - 4

Great Lord (F): G - 4

Paladin: G - 4

Great Knight: G - 13 (Mag cap of 20 hurts total)

General: G + 1

Swordmaster: G - 7

Hero: G - 4

Warrior: G - 5

Berserker: G - 17

Sniper: G - 10

Bow Knight: G - 21

Assassin: G - 15

Trickster: G - 9

Falcon Knight: G - 5

Dark Flier: G - 6

Wyvern Lord: G - 12

Griffon Rider: G - 16

Sage: G - 8

Sorcerer: G - 3

Dark Knight: G - 1

War Monk/Cleric: G

Valkyrie: G - 12

Special classes:

Dancer: G - 40

Taguel: G - 30

Manakete: G - 15

Star Lord: G - 2

Demon Fighter: G + 3

Bride: G + 4

Overlord: G - 10

Counting Great Lord (M) and (F) as one unit, the average MST of standard, promoted, non-mounted units: G - 6.75

The average MST of standard, promoted, mounted units: G - 10

The average MST of standard, promoted units locked to single weapon types: G -12.5

However, this doesn't portray a terribly accurate picture. If we dispense with relatively useless attacking stats, we get a better average for nearly every class. If physical unit won't be using a magical weapon, such as the Levin Sword, its Mag stat is useless. Of course, this doesn't take Magnificent Flame into account. Units that can't use tomes or staves will have their Mag stats removed from calculation, while units that can't use physical weapons will have their Str stats removed from calculation.

Standard classes:

Great Lord (M): G + 6

Great Lord (F): G + 6

Paladin: G + 6

Great Knight: G - 3 (Mag cap of 20 no longer matters)

General: G + 11

Swordmaster: G - 1

Hero: G + 6

Warrior: G + 5

Berserker: G - 7

Sniper: G

Bow Knight: G - 11

Assassin: G - 5

Trickster: G - 9

Falcon Knight: G - 5

Dark Flier: G - 6

Wyvern Lord: G - 2

Griffon Rider: G - 6

Sage: G + 2

Sorcerer: G + 7

Dark Knight: G - 1

War Monk/Cleric: G

Valkyrie: G - 2

Special classes:

Dancer: G - 30

Taguel: G - 20

Manakete: G - 10

Star Lord: G + 8

Demon Fighter: G + 3

Bride: G + 4

Overlord: G -8

Counting Great Lord (M) and (F) as one unit, the real average MST of standard, promoted, non-mounted units: G + 1.25

The real average MST of standard, promoted, mounted units: G - 3.33

The real average MST of standard, promoted units locked to single weapon types (Swordmaster, Berserker, Sniper, Griffon Rider): G - 3.5

As you can see, despite the overall statistical inferiority of most classes when compared to the Grandmaster, most fellow foot units are, in fact, superior in combat. This does not take Magnificent Flame into account, which would give the Grandmaster a 40% chance to do an additional 20 damage at max level, disregarding best/worst stats and other such modifiers.

[Sw3Et]

[Aether911]

I don't really see the point of this to be honest. I mean, caps aren't all, of course since you can have a hole bunch of skills via the reclass system they are quite important, but you don't take in account the possible use of each class, or their mouvement. Look at the general, his class have good caps, but even with maxed speed he will get doubled by most units if they have maxed speed as well. The weapons types as well, certainly some of them are better than other and have different use. And even the doubling system is absent, you could take in account the bonus that gives every class with maxed stats, some units that aren't stellar caps-wise could be excellent support units. So yeah, I don't really see the point of this.

[Lord Raven]

A lot of the class balance is contextual in nature. Othin explained it pretty well in another thread, but caps and growths alone are pretty useless for judging classes.

[BlueLeafeon]

All those numbers in that first post

My head.

[Agro]

tl;dr

what is even the point of this thread

[Rhaegar Targaryen]

My phone doesn't like this website at all.

The point was actually to highlight how well this game is balanced. Units with high Mov tend to have lower combat stats, as is fitting. It's too bad, though, that units which only have access to a single weapon type have the lowest average stats. Postgame, an Assassin would be superior to a Swordmaster, as both would have access to the same skills via class change. I like how Berserkers sacrifice a great deal to hit 50 Str and 44 Spd.

Overall, Awakening seems to be far better balanced than, say, Radiant Dawn. In fact, I'd say that FE13 is the best balanced of all.

[riariadne]

some of the class balance is still really dumb, like generals having only axes and lances while great knights have weapon triangle control

[Othin]

All stats are not created equal, and caps are virtually irrelevant until postgame anyway.

[StrategistPockystix]

eh, I don't really care about caps

when i think balance, i think having playable Soldiers and Halberdiers lol

I like the idea of having Myrmidon/Brigand/Soldier and Mercenary/Fighter/Knight. Sucked to have the Pegasus Knight be the Lance master ;/

[Rhaegar Targaryen]

All stats are not created equal, and caps are virtually irrelevant until postgame anyway.

Agreed, hence the second list of stats, which I think present a clearer picture. Spd is, as always, vital, which is why the General's greatest weakness is the fact that nearly every class (Great Knight and Wyvern Lord being the exceptions) can double attack it. It is unfortunate, however, that Griffon Riders get kinda screwed. They're locked into axes and don't have any high stats, making them an inferior choice to the other three flying classes. However, even this imbalance isn't too bad, since the flying classes' overall effectiveness won't be too disparate. Only Swordmasters and Assassins could double attack a Griffon Rider, whereas that list grows substantially longer for Wyvern Lords.

Possibly the best part about the class balance in this game, in my mind, is that each character has unique caps. That, and the Pair Up system can patch up any weakness a character might have.

Edited January 27, 2013 by Wyvern Mage

[shadykid]

eh, I don't really care about caps

when i think balance, i think having playable Soldiers and Halberdiers lol

I like the idea of having Myrmidon/Brigand/Soldier and Mercenary/Fighter/Knight. Sucked to have the Pegasus Knight be the Lance master ;/

Soldiers/Halberdiers would be better lance-only units indeed

[Kilo Juliett]

I don't like how Assassins are better stat-wise than Swordmasters. The only thing Swordmasters have against Assassins is better def/res which isn't really worth it because you'll probably rely more on dodging than taking hits. They should at least have more speed instead of being equal.

Edited January 28, 2013 by Kilo Juliett

[Lord Raven]

Agreed, hence the second list of stats, which I think present a clearer picture. Spd is, as always, vital, which is why the General's greatest weakness is the fact that nearly every class (Great Knight and Wyvern Lord being the exceptions) can double attack it. It is unfortunate, however, that Griffon Riders get kinda screwed. They're locked into axes and don't have any high stats, making them an inferior choice to the other three flying classes. However, even this imbalance isn't too bad, since the flying classes' overall effectiveness won't be too disparate. Only Swordmasters and Assassins could double attack a Griffon Rider, whereas that list grows substantially longer for Wyvern Lords.

Possibly the best part about the class balance in this game, in my mind, is that each character has unique caps. That, and the Pair Up system can patch up any weakness a character might have.

Speed isn't all that vital. There are problems with taking magic attacks, but odds are if you have enough defense then that speed isn't actually that necessary. I had a Stahl with like 15 Spd and 33 Str/Def that could do a lot of damage and take a lot of damage before going down in the last five chapters of the game (as long as you could avoid magic users - not too hard).

(And the other thing is that most units will get 2HKO'd by more powerful magic units anyway, the slower people just die in one round, whereas the others have a shot at dodging and will get ganged up. It's bad no matter what, nothing a barrier staff can't fix, and their massive HP often times compensates for it too.)

I don't like how Assassins are better stat-wise than Swordmasters. The only thing Swordmasters have against Assassins is better def/res which isn't really worth it because you'll probably rely more on dodging than taking hits. They should at least have more speed instead of being equal.

Def/Res is a big advantage though. I would, at times, prefer Swordmasters to Assassins simply because of that advantage. Plus, Amatsu is a very good weapon even if its uses are limited. Edited January 28, 2013 by Lord Raven

[Zera]

Between varying stat growths/caps, weapon combinations, mobility levels, terrain restrictions, and skills, I am sure every class has its own unique advantages and disadvantages.

After all, this is made by a company called Intelligent Systems, who specialize in making.....intelligent systems.

Also, I'm certain I've seen a thread like this before...

[Rhaegar Targaryen]

Speed isn't all that vital. There are problems with taking magic attacks, but odds are if you have enough defense then that speed isn't actually that necessary. I had a Stahl with like 15 Spd and 33 Str/Def that could do a lot of damage and take a lot of damage before going down in the last five chapters of the game (as long as you could avoid magic users - not too hard).

(And the other thing is that most units will get 2HKO'd by more powerful magic units anyway, the slower people just die in one round, whereas the others have a shot at dodging and will get ganged up. It's bad no matter what, nothing a barrier staff can't fix, and their massive HP often times compensates for it too.)

Def/Res is a big advantage though. I would, at times, prefer Swordmasters to Assassins simply because of that advantage. Plus, Amatsu is a very good weapon even if its uses are limited.

Funny you should mention that, since I actually preferred +Def -Lck to +Spd -Lck in the demo. I'd much rather have enough Def/Res to be double attacked for no damage than have enough Spd to double attack, while also taking a significant amount of damage. Plus, Def/Res overkill is funny, as the 'tink' a failed enemy attack makes never gets old. Being double attacked sucks, though, if you're facing something that can hurt you (read: magic units).

Overall, for units that don't have exceptionally high stats, avoiding being double attacked is more important than taking less damage per hit. Getting hit for 6 x 2 is worse than getting hit for 9 x 1. Conversely, hitting for 6 x 2 is better than hitting for 9 x 1. Spd contributes to damage output and mitigation, which is a winning combination. Of course, it's pointless to double attack if you can't scratch your target.

Also, effective damage is triple in this game, rather than double, which is unfortunate for those who rely on having such high defenses that Poleaxes can't leave a dent. Also, being attacked twice gives the attacker a higher chance of critting or activating their Skills.

Really, this just boils down to the fact that I'd rather have a Paladin than either a General or a Swordmaster.

EDIT: Path of Radiance Paladin, General, and Swordmaster.

Edited January 28, 2013 by Wyvern Mage

[Paperblade]

I see no reason to go -Lck instead of -Str or -Skl

[Lord Raven]

Paperblade: the long term is a good reason. Early game might be a little bit more chancey (though if you're getting MU attacked up front that much that you get critical'd, then you aren't using Fred enough) but lategame is easier to Sorcerer tank with if you go -Lck instead of -Skl. Supports often take care of dodge deficit more than hit deficit (because you can get up to what 20 Dodge? Which is way more, relative to the stat, than 20 Hit). Gauge the short term as much as you want, but the first couple chapters are quick and MU builds supports fast enough that his dodge deficiency is more than made up for, and quickly too.

Funny you should mention that, since I actually preferred +Def -Lck to +Spd -Lck in the demo. I'd much rather have enough Def/Res to be double attacked for no damage than have enough Spd to double attack, while also taking a significant amount of damage. Plus, Def/Res overkill is funny, as the 'tink' a failed enemy attack makes never gets old. Being double attacked sucks, though, if you're facing something that can hurt you (read: magic units).

That's MU though, not Stahl or something. Frankly magic units 2RKO like everything (3RKO if you're lucky); it just happens that if you're doubled by a magic unit then many times you'll survive with a little HP. And other enemies still tink you or do something like 2x2 damage at best. WTA is big in this game, and someone like Stahl has full WTA when he's promoted to Great Knight.

Overall, for units that don't have exceptionally high stats, avoiding being double attacked is more important than taking less damage per hit. Getting hit for 6 x 2 is worse than getting hit for 9 x 1. Conversely, hitting for 6 x 2 is better than hitting for 9 x 1. Spd contributes to damage output and mitigation, which is a winning combination. Of course, it's pointless to double attack if you can't scratch your target.

It's a situational thing. Having a lot of speed isn't necessarily preferable to the extremes this game has the potential to go to. Evade formulas are revamped and it's actually harder to double anyway, which gives Speed a little more value when it's high but when it's average or low it has a lot less value - especially when some units hit like a truck and take damage like graphene, but can't double or dodge for shit (unless you have supports and stuff).

Also, effective damage is triple in this game, rather than double, which is unfortunate for those who rely on having such high defenses that Poleaxes can't leave a dent. Also, being attacked twice gives the attacker a higher chance of critting or activating their Skills.

Most enemies won't really have skills like Astra or Assassinate. I feel like the major story bosses are the ones that do, like Walhart or Yen'fay. Edited January 28, 2013 by Lord Raven

[Sasori]

I'm not very interested in the caps, but how its the balance ingame?

Some class questions

How do Sages and dark knight compare to each other?

Is there any reason to use a battle monk/cleric instead of other healer classes?

Are Snipers actually good now?

[Lord Raven]

Okay here we go.

Balance ingame is generally fine; due to the nature of the game you only need a couple fliers for mobility, as opposed to having like 50 mounted units going for a bumrush. Brute strength is sometimes valued over utility, but utility is also good, and this game makes it a fair trade-off for some units. I'd go case-by-case but I need to go to bed soon. If yo nudge me this weekend I'll go into a full blown analysis about class trees.

Sages and Dark Knights are odd. I'd rather make someone like Ricken a dark knight (probably because I get blessed with his defense gains) because his stats aren't cut out to be a sage and his offense isn't so good that I'd make him a sage (so he could use the durability and maybe gain a weapon level in swords for his other classes), but I'd rather make someone like Miriel a Sage because it complements her glass cannon-esque offensive stats. I would make Lissa a Sage though, as opposed to a War Cleric.

I'd rather use War Monk on Libera because it's his base class; but he also has a lot of resistance as a War Monk and he can strike back with axes. The problem with other healers is that they lack the weapon ranks that Libera has to use the good axes. And generally, Libera can soak up a lot of magic hits and dish out a lot of damage because enemy mages (Except dark mages) don't take hits too well. Dark mages don't take his hits too well, but they have a hard time doing more than a tink on him. But once again, i'd rather promote tot he magic-using class for them, unless it's like Cherche lol

Snipers have been good since FE11. Viole is a really good Sniper, and I prefer that to Bow Knight just because they have a lot more defense. They may lack in Speed though, but I like the defense boost that a Sniper gets and gives.

Edited January 28, 2013 by Lord Raven