PKL Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 Ive used Sully twice now, and she seems very prone to hp skl levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Bear Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 (edited) When is Sully assumed to get up to speed? Well considering that she joins a bit better than most of your joiners at that time (Virion is an archer, Stahl and Vaike have 6 speed base and Miriel is Miriel) she can probably catch up pretty quickly. Edited April 30, 2013 by bearclaw13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titamon Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 Hard and lunatic are on completely different levels. Fred should never die. Fredrick can definitely die in Hard mode. Especially during the Valm arc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interceptor Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 When is Sully assumed to get up to speed?I don't know what assumptions are being made, but in my experience Sully was basically Fred's equal (with both being trained) by Chapter 7 or so. She had gained twelve levels to his nearly-six, and while she lost durability and weapon rank, she was closing the gap on both and had an offensive advantage to boot. As a Cavalier. Meaning, if I had promoted her, she would have destroyed him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Bear Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 Why is Cherche above Nowi and Gregor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwall Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 The question of what to do with Frederick seems qualitatively similar to the question of what to do with Edward's contributions in Ch 1-P of FE 10. From what I understand (I haven't actually played FE 10), both are characters who are effective early on simply because your other units suck worse; very shortly after, using either one has an ostensibly large opportunity cost.In a tier list that both cares and doesn't care about turns, the rationale for keeping Frederick and Edward low seems ad hoc to me. I don't want to derail the thread with tiering philosophy, but to me, putting Fred at the top of S tier seems like the consistent thing to do, as his earlygame contributions are unique and allow us to play much more efficiently than we would in his absence; meanwhile, everything that (say) Panne has to offer can be replicated by (say) Sully, and for this reason, kicking either Panne or Sully off the team has a minimal effect, if any, on efficiency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Bear Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 The question of what to do with Frederick seems qualitatively similar to the question of what to do with Edward's contributions in Ch 1-P of FE 10. From what I understand (I haven't actually played FE 10), both are characters who are effective early on simply because your other units suck worse; very shortly after, using either one has an ostensibly large opportunity cost. In a tier list that both cares and doesn't care about turns, the rationale for keeping Frederick and Edward low seems ad hoc to me. I don't want to derail the thread with tiering philosophy, but to me, putting Fred at the top of S tier seems like the consistent thing to do, as his earlygame contributions are unique and allow us to play much more efficiently than we would in his absence; meanwhile, everything that (say) Panne has to offer can be replicated by (say) Sully, and for this reason, kicking either Panne or Sully off the team has a minimal effect, if any, on efficiency. ...Wait a second first you compare Edward (who's pretty low on RD tier lists) with Frederick than say that the similarity makes Frederick top of S? How does that make sense? Where did you get the idea of Frederick being second only to MU? Where did your thought process come from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwall Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 (edited) ...Wait a second first you compare Edward (who's pretty low on RD tier lists) with Frederick than say that the similarity makes Frederick top of S? How does that make sense? Where did you get the idea of Frederick being second only to MU? Where did your thought process come from? The thrust of my argument is that both Edward and Fred should be ranked highly, and that Fred should be ranked higher than both Sully and Panne, if we work consistently within the efficient-play directive. Note that I don't disagree with the commonly accepted belief that Fred isn't a good lead-combat unit after the earlygame. Edited April 30, 2013 by Redwall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interceptor Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 Eddie's contribution to earlygame FE10 is basically that the only thing worse than a Myrmidon tanking axes with his face, are a Light Mage and/or Archer. He is the least bad option. FE10's "Jeigan" doesn't even show up until partway through Chapter 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkhead Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 Why is Cherche above Nowi and Gregor? What does Nowi have in her favor against Cherche? Avaibility? I can probably see Gregor above Cherche, as he can take up a +Spd support and fix his only problem stat and start 1RKO'ing. Cherche is most likely that high because of the obvious High Mov, Flying and decent durability. Add the fact that she can also be a potential midgame bosskiller because of the aformentioned benefits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interceptor Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 What does Nowi have in her favor against Cherche? Avaibility?N.O.W.I is a world-destroying badass. In Cherche's joining chapter she can tank something like 17 guys on the right-hand side and kill most of them, because Nowi. Cherche can Hammer some dude. Big whoop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercuryHg34 Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 N.O.W.I is a world-destroying badass. In Cherche's joining chapter she can tank something like 17 guys on the right-hand side and kill most of them, because Nowi. Cherche can Hammer some dude. Big whoop. I literally just did this chapter in my playlog, using both Nowi and Cherche. And I pretty much did the exact same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitoari Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 Cherche's good, it's just that by the time she joins you have 4 potential flyers who have something on her. Sully and Panne can be lightyears ahead, Sumia's been contributing for almost the whole game, and Cordelia is an excellent combatant and very durable for a peg knight. Also I think people are evaluating Fred's early game like we're playing Lunatic. I still have the bad habit of "waah chapter 1 prepromo, don't use him!" from when I started FE... and hard mode is quite fine. The only things you NEED Fred for are clearing Prologue - Chapter 3 at maximum possible speed. The merits of that are even debatable since you might miss the hammer in C3 unless you're feeling lucky. He's certainly useful past that, but Sully or Stahl with a pair up of some description (Sully could grab Kellam and Stahl could grab LQ, for instance) make much better use of the EXP he'd be getting. Also yeah, I missed Lucy/Morgan on my mini tier list. I actually found Lissa pretty useful in my adventures so far in Luna+, mostly in Chapter 3 during the bottom part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Sage Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 I remember Paperblade posted something about Fredrick which, while mainly applying to Lunatic, could probably apply here: He has pretty bad personal bases so the fact that the rest of your team gains like 2-3 times as much EXP means they will easily outgrow him, which matters in this game. It's the same issue Sirius has except FE13 is twice as long so the problem is even more apparent.Also his skillset is pretty bad (Discipline on a unit that starts out with absurd weapon ranks, and Outdoor Fighter on a unit that will never dodge anything ever thanks to bad Speed+Luck? No thanks), and the ones he learns in the near future aren't too hot either (Luna vs. 8 Defense enemies, woo).Granted, my Frederick should consider himself lucky to be Level 2 going into Ch. 2 so maybe it's just my dislike of the jeigan archetype I don't have an opinion on the matter. I just thought this was worth noting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKL Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 "Granted, my Frederick should consider himself lucky to be Level 2 going into Ch. 2 so maybe it's just my dislike of the jeigan archetype" Yeah, no bias there. Nope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Bear Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 "Granted, my Frederick should consider himself lucky to be Level 2 going into Ch. 2 so maybe it's just my dislike of the jeigan archetype" Yeah, no bias there. Nope. Personally I'm wondering if he's going to get that level outside of LM. To level up Frederick needs 10 kills. if I recall correctly prologue has 8 enemies including the boss. Chapter 1 has 9ish enemies. So t to level up Fred needs 10 out if 17 kills.. I'm not seeing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interceptor Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 Yes well, some of us actually trained Frederick and were still disappointed in him. I got him nearly to level seven by Ch7, which is about 10 chapters when you consider Paralogues. Hard to argue that was sandbagging him, when he gets such crappy XP/kill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Bear Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 Yes well, some of us actually trained Frederick and were still disappointed in him. I got him nearly to level seven by Ch7, which is about 10 chapters when you consider Paralogues. Hard to argue that was sandbagging him, when he gets such crappy XP/kill. I've done more and been disappointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadykid Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 The thrust of my argument is that both Edward and Fred should be ranked highly, and that Fred should be ranked higher than both Sully and Panne, if we work consistently within the efficient-play directive. Note that I don't disagree with the commonly accepted belief that Fred isn't a good lead-combat unit after the earlygame. yeah but Edward is trash tier, so this doesn't fly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 Frederick's growths, while pretty spectacular (going by what we know anyway), like a unit like sully, has a lot of growths that can variate a lot, so people having different experiences with him is understandable. There's no doubting he's a stud in the earlygame, but a his midgame in this thread has ranged from spectacular to useless, neither of which are correct in my opinion. of course, this post is just another opinionated post, there hasn't been much conclusive evidance of either end of the spectrum though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aku chi Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 (edited) The Frederick, Edward comparison is absurd. Edward is the best of 3 units for one short chapter. Frederick is the best of 10-15 units for at least 10 chapters. Edit: Frederick does have competition from Avatar in the latter half of those 10 chapters. Edited April 30, 2013 by aku chi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadykid Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 The Frederick, Edward comparison is absurd. Edward is the best of 3 units for one short chapter. Frederick is the best of 10-15 units for at least 10 chapters. yeah I don't think so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwall Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 yeah I don't think so Prologue: send up Fred C1: Avatar with pocket Fred C2: send up Fred C3: send up Fred P1: send up Fred while having Donnel take kills C4: send up Fred C5: send up Fred to draw in Wyverns P2: Fred saves the village C6: Fred heads to Validar, killing a lot of things along the way C7: Fred goes nuts on Wyverns will respond to the other Fred stuff later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Sage Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 Frederick's growths, while pretty spectacular (going by what we know anyway), like a unit like sully, has a lot of growths that can variate a lot, so people having different experiences with him is understandable. There's no doubting he's a stud in the earlygame, but a his midgame in this thread has ranged from spectacular to useless, neither of which are correct in my opinion. of course, this post is just another opinionated post, there hasn't been much conclusive evidance of either end of the spectrum though. I agree with this. Fred's contributions in the earlygame are great. yes, in midgame he's not wtf amazing, but I don't think he's useless either. He can still contribute lategame with dual strike with effective weapons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aku chi Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 yeah I don't think so 11 chapters is Prologue, C1-7, P1-3 Nobody can best Frederick's mov. Sumia and Cordelia are the only units with any potential mobility advantage. Nobody can best Frederick's Atk. 27 Atk at base with Silver Lance. Full weapon triangle control. 1-2 range access. High weapon ranks. Avatar might have better 1-2 range Atk at the tail end of these chapters. Nobody can best Frederick's durability (with the possible exception of +Def Avatar at the tail end of these chapters). Frederick can double almost any unit with a +Spd pair-up - of which there are several: Chrom, Sumia, Lon'qu, Gaius, Panne, and Cordelia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts