why are jeigans in high tiers?

[-Cynthia-]

Base stats and availability (and mobility which many Jeigans have) are some of the the more important factors for being considered "good" and Jeigans tend to be good in these areas.

[Knight]

Not to forget those nice silver lances they all start with that kill everything from footmen to bosses through early to mid game easily. I've never liked Jeigans, Oifaye and maybe Seth are the only ones I've ever liked. They absorb too much of the fun.

[Renall]

It's been said, but I want to rephrase it a little:

• The hard part of a Fire Emblem game is usually the beginning, when base stats are low and weapons are poor and characters are not promoted.
  
• The easy part of a Fire Emblem game is usually the end, when characters have high stats and good weapons and everyone is promoted.

The thing is, it's much easier to be good in the second one, but much more important to be good in the first one. Because you can't do anything to make Roy stronger in Chapter 1 of FE6 Hard. And you don't need to do anything to make Marcus stronger in Chapter 1 of FE6 Hard, because he already kills everything if he wishes to.

Now, to get a character to be good in the second part, he has to survive the first part and level up. The best way to ensure this happens is to not have him getting killed by getting enemies to attack somebody who can take hits. Hey, look what a Jeigan can do! Especially if it's like FE9 where Titania can just take her axe off and sit there, being tinked forever while everybody else takes the kills. She can just feed on the occasional boss, she doesn't give a crap.

Stat boosters also exist and investing them in a character with good bases but modest growths often pays off well. Not much point giving a Speedwing to somebody who will probably get the needed SPD pretty quick, but changing Marcus's doubling range for the next handful of chapters can be a paradigm shift for him even if he's not gaining very much experience because you're avoiding having him get kills.

And then you have the aforementioned super-Jeigans, mostly FE9 Titania and Seth. You can more or less solo the game with these characters. They never have to go through an awkward growth stage to become all-destroying titans. So how could they possibly be worse than characters who can't solo the game or do have to grow to become all-destroying?

[BossOfGuns]

But jeigans are only good earlygame and by midgame, fe13 for example, sully and stahl will be better than fredrick, in fe 10, edward and nolan will be better than soth

[Byte2222]

Base stats and availability (and mobility which many Jeigans have) are some of the the more important factors for being considered "good" and Jeigans tend to be good in these areas.

Ninja'd. Cynically speaking, our current metric (turncount efficiency) highly favours bases, availability and movement. 'Jeigan's always have good bases for their jointime, they almost always excellent availability and they often have good movement so they score highly in the system.

That said, there is good reason why this happens. Jeigans rule the earlygame where, metaphorically speaking, the path is narrower and experienced players have fewer options available to them. By endgame, the good choices made by an experienced player will be paying off and the fact that 'Jeigan' units may have poorer performance seems... unimportant... in context.

[Excellen Browning]

But jeigans are only good earlygame and by midgame, fe13 for example, sully and stahl will be better than fredrick, in fe 10, edward and nolan will be better than soth

That doesn't mean that Sothe isn't downright the best character for part 1, not to mention essential if you're doing HM (which rankings are based off), still one of the best dawn brigade units in part 3, and usable in part 4. The only part where he's iffy is endgame, which is only a couple of maps, and he's forced anyway so ehh why not use him.

and honestly endgame tends to be an uninteresting affair for experienced players, so having a good endgame isn't even all that important.

[Loki Laufeyson]

But jeigans are only good earlygame and by midgame, fe13 for example, sully and stahl will be better than fredrick, in fe 10, edward and nolan will be better than soth

But that early/mid game is hella important bro. Fred doesnt need to be awesome after a certain point when everyone caught up. But he NEEDS to be there for when everyone is still a scrub.

[shadykid]

That doesn't mean that Sothe isn't downright the best character for part 1, not to mention essential if you're doing HM (which rankings are based off), still one of the best dawn brigade units in part 3, and usable in part 4. The only part where he's iffy is endgame, which is only a couple of maps, and he's forced anyway so ehh why not use him.

and honestly endgame tends to be an uninteresting affair for experienced players, so having a good endgame isn't even all that important.

FE10 endgame in particular is mostly the Laguz Royal Romp anyway lol

[Anacybele]

But that early/mid game is hella important bro. Fred doesnt need to be awesome after a certain point when everyone caught up. But he NEEDS to be there for when everyone is still a scrub.

And Freddy can still end up awesome anyway because of reclassing, which will get him more levels. Unlike previous Jagens, he has the opportunity to go back to level 1 and buff up further.

Just watch me bring him to his full potential, peeps. I've already started working on him.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Anacybele

[NoNameAtAll]

And Freddy can still end up awesome anyway because of reclassing, which will get him more levels. Unlike previous Jagens, he has the opportunity to go back to level 1 and buff up further.

Just watch me bring him to his full potential, peeps. I've already started working on him.

The problem is that that effort can be exerted on another character who will be far better.

[Excellen Browning]

FE10 endgame in particular is mostly the Laguz Royal Romp anyway lol

Yup.

FE12 endgame is warpskip (I think)

FE11 endgame is warpskip (I think)

FE10 endgame laguz royals destroy everything

FE9 endgame is Ike with resolve one shotting Ashnard in both forms

FE8 endgame is breaking out the holy weapons and ripping shit up (not to mention Seth can solo the game)

FE7 endgame can be Athos solo'd, except for cog.

FE6 endgame I'll grant I'm not aware of easy to use strategies, but since you have people like Percival I don't think it can be that bad

FE5 endgame can be solved with warping shenanigans

FE4 engame consists of Tyrfinging that bitch up, then Narga'ing that bitch up.

FE1-3 endgame I have no idea.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Gyarados

[Anacybele]

The problem is that that effort can be exerted on another character who will be far better.

That still doesn't mean Frederick can't be good no matter what. But it's true that the kids will always surpass the parents. However, the kids will only be at their best if the parents gain good stats and skills to pass on to them in the first place.

So if you have Frederick get married, it'd be worth while to pump him up as much as possible so he passes on the best to his son/daughter. Though I already got Morgan. I'm just putting the effort into beefing up his dad because I want to.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Anacybele

[Loki Laufeyson]

And Freddy can still end up awesome anyway because of reclassing, which will get him more levels. Unlike previous Jagens, he has the opportunity to go back to level 1 and buff up further.

Just watch me bring him to his full potential, peeps. I've already started working on him.

Wut. I reclassed Froderick only for him to fail miserably. I think if theres one guy in your army that can be fine without reclassing, its this guy right here.

[Anacybele]

Wut. I reclassed Froderick only for him to fail miserably. I think if theres one guy in your army that can be fine without reclassing, its this guy right here.

He might have been screwed for you. And if Frederick doesn't get reclassed, he does indeed fall behind his comrades later. Morgan and Stahl are my other two Great Knights right now and both have similar stats to him atm, but are at least ten levels lower. By the time all three are level 20, Frederick wouldn't look that great in comparison.

[BossOfGuns]

So i guess jeigans are good then

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Jeigans, as a general rule, are amazing in earlygame, decent in midgame, and mediocre in endgame. Usually there's at least one pre-promote that joins Mid/Lategame that's the same class and better, i.e. Percival, Sirius. Or you have the character who promotes into the same class and outclasses the Jeigan, i.e. Alan, Lance, Sain. And then there's the Jeigans who are good throughout, i.e. Seth and Titania, who are amazing at the beginning and middle, and sometimes fall behind at endgame but are usually solid choices to take to the end.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Yup.

FE1-3 endgame I have no idea.

Not entirely sure about 3, but 1 is all about Marth Warp Skip curbstomping, at least in my experience

[MacLovin]

fe3 book 2 is about orbs on Arran and the ridiculiu statboosters

fe2 has like Luka? And I guess maybe Gray?

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

FE3 also has Catria, and Palla and their extremely absurd base stats too

Well, maybe.....

Edited March 31, 2013 by JSND

[Tamanoir]

fe3 book 2 is about orbs on Arran and the ridiculiu statboosters

fe2 has like Luka? And I guess maybe Gray?

Grey is a Villager, and Luka is tier 1. I think it must be the only game without Jeigan. Maybe Valbo, for Cellica ?

Mathilda is obtained pretty late for a Jeigan and absolutely rules. Norma and Maisen are obtained far too late

And FE Endgame is Alm Cellica criticalling the final boss to death, or Drain abuse...

FE5 has... Evayle and Dagda, I guess. Evayle shouldn't be used, and I have no idea how good Dagda used...

FE4 part 1 has Cuan, and Maybe Sigurd. Sigurd rules, and you may want to makes Cuan and Ethlin train a lot for Leaf and Althenna.

And Oifaye is always good, but never great, and have a horse in a game where mobility is everything. And since you never have to sacrifice another slot to use him, there are zero reason not to use him.

FE7 Marcus is pretty usefull at the beginning, but you have so many other great Cavaliers that he isn't that needed later. (Once Kent and Sain are back, is where he can go to his dear bench). Using him is too much a gamble, and can be pretty detrimental to the whole team. But for his first HHM chapter, he is really much needed, and at least until you have Kent and Sain back.

In FE12, Dracoknight Arran is extremely usefull. I remember using him to kill a thief I couldn't get otherwise.

Then, once you obtain Sirius, he can be benched immediately, since Sirius beats him in every way. (Even more so in FE3 book 2, where Sirius is one of the best unit of the game).

I think that it's basically the same with Jagen in FE11. Dracoknight rules.

And Seth have is own special place, as probably the best FE8 unit. Begins great, and ends a pretty good unit.

Not sure for the others games...

Abusing them is rarely a good idea, but they can be lifesaver in early game, especially in harder difficulty.

[Anacybele]

So, once I sent Frederick back to lv. 1 Great Knight, he began outdoing all my other horse knights, except Morgan, who is practically his equal. But Sully and Stahl just aren't matching up and all are close in level. Stahl is much slower, and still has less of everything else too. Same with Sully, pretty much. Frederick just has higher EVERYTHING than these two. And Stahl is the highest leveled. I didn't actually expect this, to be honest. Maybe I got lucky with him, who knows?

But this is the first time I've never had my first tier horse knights surpass the Jagen. Franz always got better than Seth for me in FE8, and Oscar and Kieran would both surpass Titania in Tellius. And Sain always crushed his competition in FE7.

Edited March 31, 2013 by Anacybele

[Renall]

FE5 has... Evayle and Dagda, I guess. Evayle shouldn't be used, and I have no idea how good Dagda used...

Dagdar is a beast. This is a FE that gives you a Brave Axe in the first chapter, and he's a Warrior. He's got twice the STR and 150% the HP of the other characters and 15 BLD. Basically a capture machine, with Marty following him around to strip and release guys. His only flaw is SPD, and a base of 9 is not horrid in Thracia given that SPD is one of the easier stats to fix with scrolls (and Dagdar certainly competes for the Chapter 2 Speed Ring, which would put him at 12 right off the bat).

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

from what i heard, the Speed and Life Ring goes to Leif

Anyway, Dagda is so crappy that his stats barely increased after he become a DW

im using Endgame logic

Did Dagda really have that high of an HP?

Edited April 1, 2013 by JSND

[shadykid]

43 HP vs 27-28 for non-Leif characters (Leif has 22)

[Thor Odinson]

From my experiences Marcus is fine to use in for the whole game in HHM. Plenty of exp to go around if you do it right. People who likes really high stats may not like using him but HHM enemies are pretty shit even lategame and he doesn't really have that much trouble as people make him out to be. Mine ended up at level 15, I think. Made it to endgame, too.

I've had horrible rng experiences with all of the FE7 cavs, though, and since I play exclusively HHM I don't really have to room on my team to even try to make them better if they don't get enough stats in LHM (Sain never gaining speed for about 10 levels, anyone?) . so I much prefer someone who's RNG-proof like Marcus and Isadora and just sustain them on boosters. His bases are pretty kickass, and a speedwings gets him an extra milage of usage.

Though Marcus getting +6 points speed blessed doesn't hurt either on my last run, just meant those speedwings can go to someone else~

And I just played PoR for the first time. Titania ended up mvp with 100 kills over Ike (the runner up) and basically ran around and never died. gg game what is balance

Edited April 1, 2013 by Thor Odinson