The Great Knoll Debate

[sandmanccl]

Because it's been spilling into a bunch of other threads.

I say yes, he is. Summoner is a pretty awesome class. I also think that a mediocre character can be good PURELY on the merits of his class in this case, because Summoners don't ever need to be in combat to be useful.

Yeah, his speed is kind of low, which makes him a bit of a liability when going against speed/skill units like the common Mauthe Doog. Simple solution: don't have him in front of your tank units? Seems pretty simple to me.

People also like to bash him for his low luck and defense. That just boggles my mind. Except for L'Arachel and Ewan, most the magic users in this game are pretty average in luck and therefore won't be getting critical hits overly often except for support bonuses. He's also going to be using Dark Magic, which doesn't crit very often as is. And for low defense... you're joking me. Name a mage with good defense. Come on, I'm waiting.

Going by Average stats, the mage character with the best defense at 20/20 is Moulder, at 14, and Saleh coming in second with 13.7. Other mage units that people have been squealing over, like Natasha and L'Arachel and Lute? All 3 of them end up with around 10 defense at LEVEL CAP. Even at 5 or 6, Knoll isn't that far behind. He's got better HP growth than most of them, too. (Base HP kind of sucks, but it gets up there quickish.)

Fact of the matter is, your mages probably shouldn't be getting attacked except by other magic users on your turn.

Another fact: Knoll has pretty great magic growths. He's on-par with Ewan and L'Arachel and has the benefit of a higher magic stat cap than Bishops, Valkyries, or Mage Knights. (Meaning the only caster that, on average, will beat his magic score at level cap is Lute as a Sage.) And he uses Dark Magic, with enough Constitution to make good use of them. Dark Magic is fairly powerful.

I'll concede he takes a bit of work, but he's one of the very few units in an otherwise easy game that requires a little bit of babying, and even then, it's not that much because after he promotes to summoner, there's all sorts of summoner-only luring things you can do to level the playing field.

Edited August 9, 2008 by sandmanccl

[Sir Canas]

I'd love to debate, but unfortunatly I agree with everything you said :( .

[Knife]

I agree with you that he's good solely for his class. However, he's an extremely sensitive Magic unit, even with slighty higher HP. He can't quite dodge as easily. His Magic strength is pretty good though. His skill is kinda bad, on account of using Dark magic. He's not as speedy as most Mages. Horrible defense and luck. Good res.

[Florete]

If I can't baby him without him being killed (and trust me, babying units is my specialty), then he isn't worth it. He has little luck, not little defense but NO defense, not fast enough, and the likes. I can't call him good because his class has a special use to it.

If a character sucks this much, and in SS at that... What do they have going for them? A promotion so they can bring out a wall? That's laughable. Units should be able to fend for themselves unless their a bow user, in which case they SHOULD be behind all your units. In fact, even then, bow users can be useful with their high dodge rate to lure in enemies, something Knoll definitely can't do.

On a side note, I like Druids better anyway. Anima ftw.

I've never heard you talk about snipers, but I tell you, if you start hating on them while you love this guy, there's something wrong with you.

[Metal Rabbit]

If I can't baby him without him being killed (and trust me, babying units is my specialty), then he isn't worth it. He has little luck, not little defense but NO defense, not fast enough, and the likes. I can't call him good because his class has a special use to it.

If a character sucks this much, and in SS at that... What do they have going for them? A promotion so they can bring out a wall? That's laughable. Units should be able to fend for themselves unless their a bow user, in which case they SHOULD be behind all your units. In fact, even then, bow users can be useful with their high dodge rate to lure in enemies, something Knoll definitely can't do.

On a side note, I like Druids better anyway. Anima ftw.

I've never heard you talk about snipers, but I tell you, if you start hating on them while you love this guy, there's something wrong with you.

Agreed...

I've always thought of summoners as gimmicky anyway. I mean why bother summoning crappy lil' phantoms when at that point your real units should be near uber? And in this game it's hard for any ingame character to suck flat out.

Although I should stay on topic: I don't mind babying or using him. He's pretty decent, it's just Ewan makes a better Druid than him.

Edited August 9, 2008 by Metal Arc

[Kintenbo]

The main thing that makes people think Knoll is good is the whole summoner deal. Let me tell you a thing about phantoms, they don't help you very much. "But it can distract enemies!!!" Why would you need to distract the weakest enemies in the entire Fire Emblem series? "Dracozombies, duh!" Oh yes, those whopping three Dracozombies in the main game, they are most definately a reason to use Knoll. Also, they won't help you much in combat, since they are killed in one hit and never get stronger than your average unpromoted unit. There's also the fact that a great deal of your people can already one round most of the enemies, while these phantoms can barely take down an Entombed. "But the more people, the better, right?" Not really, these phantoms don't bring much to the plate, and these are even Knoll's phantoms, which admitfully are the best phantoms in this game. "They can be made anytime!!!" So? It's not like they'd make it past the next turn if you're using them for distraction purposes.

Name a mage with good defense

In this game's case, Moulder the Boulder. 14 is perfectly fine in this game. In other games, I can think of Pent, Hugh, and to an extent, Canas. Sure, the only good one is Pent, but whatever. There could be more, but I really don't know anything before 6.

Knoll himself, frail as can be and a Swordmaster/Berserker's meal. (not that there are many of those in this game, but whatever) As we know, with barely existing defense, virtually nonexistant luck, and low speed combined with using the heaviest magic type, Knoll is dead when attacked.

Simple solution: don't have him in front of your tank units? Seems pretty simple to me.

Simple solution: don't use him at all, and save you a ton of turns of not babying him. There's always the excuse of "Oh, if said unit is frail, don't put him/her in harms way". If that's that big an issue, it's better off not using him at all.

Also, he's underleveled. "But there's the Tower of Valni!!!" If you're trying to make this a proper debate, bringing that up is just a good way to pwn yourself. Anybody can use the tower, so how would that make everyone else less special? In proper debates, it's assumed you're using equal leveling and not Tower/Arena abusing, sorry man.

And he uses Dark Magic, with not nearly enough Constitution to make good use of them. Dark Magic is easily the worst magic type in the game

Fixed it for you. Dark Magic is just one of the many reasons why he's so bad. It's incredibly heavy, and Knoll can only use Flux without destroying his already mediocre speed. "But Nosferatu can heal" Then he gets all that damage back, thanks to being double attacked. Only the Revenants and Entombs probably wouldn't double attack him. 7 and once promoted 8 Con will not be enough, sorry man.

Face it, Knoll is lol. The summoner thing is the only thing slightly useful about him, and that's judging he even gets to promote, since there's around 5 other magic folk who wants to promote.

[sandmanccl]

I adore Snipers. Rolf is one of my favorite units in any FE game to date. (Archer with better strength gains than fighters? Hells yeah.)

In an army of 10 people in a typical FE game, I like to have a brick wall (usually a general), a mobile wall (whichever cavalier has the best HP/Defense), 1 flier, 1 axe guy (pirate or fighter, doesn't matter much to me), 1 healer, 1 magic unit, 1 archer, the Lord unit (at least most of them from FE7 onward are actually pretty baller units) and then 2 people specifically for the map at hand. That usually means another horse unit and either another flier or another mage.

I baby all mages, always. You guys know me. I leave nothing to chance. Magic units rarely, rarely, rarely, rarely tank and that's only when there's another magic unit that's gonna be charging my lines without me worrying about a swordmaster or whatever coming to eat their face.

[CGV]

I say no because 0 luck and 2 defense and shitty speed = FOR THE LOSS!!!! EWAN FOR THE WIN!!!!

[sandmanccl]

The main thing that makes people think Knoll is good is the whole summoner deal. Let me tell you a thing about phantoms, they don't help you very much. "But it can distract enemies!!!" Why would you need to distract the weakest enemies in the entire Fire Emblem series? "Dracozombies, duh!" Oh yes, those whopping three Dracozombies in the main game, they are most definately a reason to use Knoll. Also, they won't help you much in combat, since they are killed in one hit and never get stronger than your average unpromoted unit. There's also the fact that a great deal of your people can already one round most of the enemies, while these phantoms can barely take down an Entombed. "But the more people, the better, right?" Not really, these phantoms don't bring much to the plate, and these are even Knoll's phantoms, which admitfully are the best phantoms in this game. "They can be made anytime!!!" So? It's not like they'd make it past the next turn if you're using them for distraction purposes.

What's better: a resummonable meatshield to lure enemies closer without putting people at risk or putting a guy at risk?

K. Next.

In this game's case, Moulder the Boulder. 14 is perfectly fine in this game. In other games, I can think of Pent, Hugh, and to an extent, Canas. Sure, the only good one is Pent, but whatever. There could be more, but I really don't know anything before 6.

Moulder IS a tank. I admit that freely. His ridiculous HP gains plus his decent defense for a magic user are pretty uncommon in the series. However, Pent, Hugh, and Canas aren't in this game, making the rest of your point totally invalid and just nonsense. That's like saying there's no point in using Rebecca in FE7 because Rolf in FE10 is better.

Knoll himself, frail as can be and a Swordmaster/Berserker's meal. (not that there are many of those in this game, but whatever) As we know, with barely existing defense, virtually nonexistant luck, and low speed combined with using the heaviest magic type, Knoll is dead when attacked.

Yet again, wtf are you letting your mages get attacked by swordmasters and berserkers for? Why would you put Knoll in the line of fire of a swordmaster or berserker and expect him to survive? If you'd have said Mauthe Doogs on a map with Fog of War, then you'd have good point because it's not always the easiest to predict which way those guys are going to come from.

Simple solution: don't use him at all, and save you a ton of turns of not babying him. There's always the excuse of "Oh, if said unit is frail, don't put him/her in harms way". If that's that big an issue, it's better off not using him at all.

Alright, so going by that logic, all 3 of the trainees aren't worth using, Neimi isn't worth using, Vanessa isn't worth using, Marisa isn't worth using, and Eirika isn't worth using until she promotes.

Also, he's underleveled. "But there's the Tower of Valni!!!" If you're trying to make this a proper debate, bringing that up is just a good way to pwn yourself. Anybody can use the tower, so how would that make everyone else less special? In proper debates, it's assumed you're using equal leveling and not Tower/Arena abusing, sorry man.

Assuming you're going through the game this way, there's always the chance that some of the other magic users you were planning on using have been killed and you need a replacement. He can do just fine.

Fixed it for you. Dark Magic is just one of the many reasons why he's so bad. It's incredibly heavy, and Knoll can only use Flux without destroying his already mediocre speed. "But Nosferatu can heal" Then he gets all that damage back, thanks to being double attacked. Only the Revenants and Entombs probably wouldn't double attack him. 7 and once promoted 8 Con will not be enough, sorry man.

Flux is awesome. What's wrong with Flux? It's cheap and more powerful than anything else you can buy for that much, and considering his strong magic gains, it's usually enough to cripple most enemies so that your other guys can run up and kill something without fear of counterattack.

Face it, Knoll is lol. The summoner thing is the only thing slightly useful about him, and that's judging he even gets to promote, since there's around 5 other magic folk who wants to promote.

There's like 5 guiding rings obtainable by the end of chapter 15. They're seriously all over the place. It's conceivable that you're not using two of the 7 other mage types you get by this point.

ADDITIONAL: Also about going Druid instead of Summoner for Anima Magic, have fun doing that. Lighter magic tomes means your lower speed won't be as much of an issue and he still does a shitload of damage. I never found it necessary, though, because, considering the extreme amount of Guiding Rings, I've almost guaranteed got a character with Anima magic that's better at it that Knoll will be any time soon.

Edited August 9, 2008 by sandmanccl

[Rehab]

While I love me some druid Ewan, both him and Knoll require a fair amount of babying and come in kind of late. I don't remember if there are tactician ratings in SS, though, so I just use who I like.

As far as Knoll goes, I used him. Promoted him, too (into a druid, but whatever). He just felt kind of lackluster even when he was good enough to not be babied.

[Metal Rabbit]

I prefer druids with dark tomes just because they're stronger. If I wanted Ewan to use Anima I'd have made him a sage, and Knoll in particular doesn't have anything all that special goin' for him but his magic strength. He is in fact: A glass cannon, so make it hurt more.

[Phoenix Wright]

The main thing that makes people think Knoll is good is the whole summoner deal. Let me tell you a thing about phantoms, they don't help you very much. "But it can distract enemies!!!" Why would you need to distract the weakest enemies in the entire Fire Emblem series? "Dracozombies, duh!" Oh yes, those whopping three Dracozombies in the main game, they are most definately a reason to use Knoll. Also, they won't help you much in combat, since they are killed in one hit and never get stronger than your average unpromoted unit. There's also the fact that a great deal of your people can already one round most of the enemies, while these phantoms can barely take down an Entombed. "But the more people, the better, right?" Not really, these phantoms don't bring much to the plate, and these are even Knoll's phantoms, which admitfully are the best phantoms in this game. "They can be made anytime!!!" So? It's not like they'd make it past the next turn if you're using them for distraction purposes.

In this game's case, Moulder the Boulder. 14 is perfectly fine in this game. In other games, I can think of Pent, Hugh, and to an extent, Canas. Sure, the only good one is Pent, but whatever. There could be more, but I really don't know anything before 6.

I do not like Knoll for summons. Although he is one in my game I use him because I like dark magic and it doesn't hurt to have 2 of them

Edited August 9, 2008 by FEFL

[Florete]

ADDITIONAL: Also about going Druid instead of Summoner for Anima Magic, have fun doing that. Lighter magic tomes means your lower speed won't be as much of an issue and he still does a shitload of damage. I never found it necessary, though, because, considering the extreme amount of Guiding Rings, I've almost guaranteed got a character with Anima magic that's better at it that Knoll will be any time soon.

That's just my personal preference. I wasn't making an argument there.

However, I find it funny you love sturdy Generals and hate the frail Swordmasters, yet you love the even frailer and more useless Knoll? And practically only because he can make a shield? Psh, Josh or Marisa could easily take on the enemies in this game and not even think of needing a wall.

[Serene]

That's just my personal preference. I wasn't making an argument there.

However, I find it funny you love sturdy Generals and hate the frail Swordmasters, yet you love the even frailer and more useless Knoll? And practically only because he can make a shield? Psh, Josh or Marisa could easily take on the enemies in this game and not even think of needing a wall.

Agreed with Josh and Marisa, these two are my strike team in SS, as long as I keep a MK or Yalk near them for healing and attacking, Josh and Marisa make a great strike team. Also Josh and Marisa are the only A support between them.

Knoll is frail, personally Ewan would make a better druid or Summinor than Knoll would

[Ϲharlie]

Knoll's summons have better growths than Ewan's, as recall.

Anyway, I leveled Knoll once and he wasn't quite as good as the other mages on my team. Even so, he carried out his role well enough. Knoll isn't the greatest dark mage ever, but he's far from the worst (Niime, I'm looking at you).

[Serene]

Knoll's summons have better growths than Ewan's, as recall.

Anyway, I leveled Knoll once and he wasn't quite as good as the other mages on my team. Even so, he carried out his role well enough. Knoll isn't the greatest dark mage ever, but he's far from the worst (Niime, I'm looking at you).

True he isn't but it a game of over powered unit's, Knoll stands out as having the honor of being the shittiest character in SS

[Florete]

Knoll's summons have better growths than Ewan's, as recall.

His summons? Wait, does that even matter at all?

Edited August 9, 2008 by Fox

[Ϲharlie]

That was just a bit of trivia that came to mind when I saw the topic. I wasn't trying to make a point. I'm surprised someone even noticed.

Edited August 10, 2008 by Musashi

[Smashy B]

Name a mage with good defense. Come on, I'm waiting.

Hugh from FE6. His defense was often the same as, if not better than his resistance.

Edit: mentioned by someone else, nvm.

Edited August 10, 2008 by smashbro

[sandmanccl]

That's just my personal preference. I wasn't making an argument there.

However, I find it funny you love sturdy Generals and hate the frail Swordmasters, yet you love the even frailer and more useless Knoll? And practically only because he can make a shield? Psh, Josh or Marisa could easily take on the enemies in this game and not even think of needing a wall.

Swordmasters are frontline fighters. Knoll is not. He doesn't get attacked because he can attack from range. Swordmasters get counter-attacked at the very least because they don't kill enemies in a hit without a critical and they aren't ranged characters.

My problem with Swordmasters is a number game issue. The majority of people who despise Knoll, from what I gather, have no idea how to use any mage characters, let alone just him.

[Kintenbo]

Swordmasters are frontline fighters. Knoll is not. He doesn't get attacked because he can attack from range. Swordmasters get counter-attacked at the very least because they don't kill enemies in a hit without a critical and they aren't ranged characters.

My problem with Swordmasters is a number game issue. The majority of people who despise Knoll, from what I gather, have no idea how to use any mage characters, let alone just him.

The problem with the whole "He can attack from range" happens on the enemy phase. Unless you waste your time making a human sheild for Knoll, he's going to get whooped. If you have to baby a unit to make him or her good, the unit is not good. That's why being underleveled hurts. Also, this is a reason you don't see many magic units on the top tier, unless you're a healer. (sorry anti-tier fans, but they exist)

[Lamer]

Knoll is pretty much bottom tier.

[Doom103]

knoll is cool and hes a summoner

he depends on your play style really for me he fit right in. i ued his summon things as distractions so i can bait enemy and just stem roll through them when there in a nice position

[Zero the Hero]

I found Knoll to be a very good unit. I mean training him wasn't easy, but he is worth the work.

Edited August 10, 2008 by Zero the Hero

[Rehab]

Tiers in a single-player game, especially where there isn't even a reward for playing "better," end up being kind of dumb, regardless of their existence.