Why are we waging war for the Emblem again? (SPOILERS)

[Vashiane]

You know those moments where you're sitting around, doing nothing of particular interest when all of a sudden something mind-blowing just... hits you.

Well, a particular realization just bitch-slapped me across the face a few moments ago and I simply had to get my thoughts out about.

Said realization?

Emmeryn's sacrifice was pointless.

Let me explain: Chrom had two choices in that particular moment, hand over the Fire Emblem and spare Emmeryn's life, or sacrifice Emmeryn to keep the Fire Emblem. The best choice is clearly the first one, but because apparently Chrom can't make his own decisions, Emmeryn chooses the second choice for him.

Now, in order to use the Fire Emblem, one needs to acquire all five gemstones, then go to Naga and complete the Awakening trial to receive her power, am I right? Said five gemstones are in Regna Ferox, Ylisse, The Mila Tree, Chon'sin, and Plegia. Scattered all over the continent, in other words. And implied in the text, the Awakening ritual is difficult to go through and there's a definite possibility of dying.

So say Gangrel actually gets a hold of the Fire Emblem, then. What can he do with it? He'd need to get the other four gemstones, and those stones are being held by people who most likely wouldn't give them to him. He'd have to take over a shrine, overpower Tiki (a powerful Manakete and the daughter of Naga HERSELF), then wage war on THREE different nations in order to get the gemstones. And once he's gotten a hold of them? He still has the ritual.

And this is, of course, Gangrel, the former king of a country, and therefore in control of an entire army. Remember all the chapter bosses who also desired the Fire Emblem? Exactly how are they going to get the gemstones to power the thing? Did they not think of that before they board their wyverns/mounts and ran off blindly into the sunset? Clearly, they didn't. What I find ironically funny is that the only person who probably could forcibly take the gemstones is Walhart... the only person who expresses no interest in the Emblem.

And the reason why Chrom managed to recover all the vital pieces? Serious advantage. He has the Emblem itself, one of the gemstones, and is allies with two of the nations that HAVE said gemstones, and worships the goddess whose daughters holds the other! The only gemstone he has to truly work for is Plegia. That's 5 pieces of the Fire Emblem to Plegia's one, and 5 to anyone else's 0. No wonder we breezed by getting it.

Anyone else have anything about the game they noticed, or want to debate this theory? Come forth and discuss. :)

Edited May 15, 2013 by Vashiane

[Interceptor]

Topic needs massive spoiler alert. Also:

Gangrel would have killed them anyway, sorry.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

For the Emmeryn vs the Emblem thing, I recalled that back in the original timeline, the reason why they lost are because the Emblem is stolen during that time, particularly when Emm is killed during the assasination attempt. Of course they are not supposed to know anything about the future, but yeah. Also theres Validar.

As for the part of how Chrom have serious advantage, by the end of chapter 11 nothing really make sense other than MU is beter than you at anything, and they shoved some friendship speeches for no reason, so I dont think about it that much....

[Elieson]

Sacred stones says hello. The point of multiple parties owning pieces of the puzzle prevents one rash party from getting it all. Valm and Plegians ended up with 2 of the 5. Tiki is an independent party really.

And the point of Gangrel wanting the most holy of treasures from another country (which he hates)? It's a matter of pride, and he felt it was the key to achieving said pride. Remember how Plegians hate Yllisians? Well what better to earn respect and dignity back than by taking by force what something most dear to your historical nemesis.

[Sock]

^While it's true that Gangrel wanted the Fire Emblem for selfish reasons, Validar was sort of manipluating Gangrel's situation from behind the scenes. But, was he really, or were he and Aversa simply trying to take credit for it? -shrugs- Either way, Validar would have snatched the Fire Emblem from Gangrel somehow.

Btw, the Awakening ritual is just to awaken the Falchion. It has nothing to do with the Fire Emblem.

[Renall]

If Gangrel had won I presume Validar would've tried to manipulate him into taking out Valm.

I have no idea how he would've done so without Ylisse and Ferox backing him up though, so I guess Walhart would win and Validar would fail? Yay?

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

^ Yay....Pretty much

The real problem comes if Wallhart is dead for some reason

Edited April 25, 2013 by JSND

[Junkhead]

Chrom had two choices in that particular moment, hand over the Fire Emblem and spare Emmeryn's life, or sacrifice Emmeryn to keep the Fire Emblem. The best choice is clearly the first one, but because apparently Chrom can't make his own decisions, Emmeryn chooses the second choice for him.

That's because nobody had any idea that the Emblem needed the extra gemstones to power it up.

/topic

Oh, another thing worth pointing out: Emmery actually made a third choice by sacrificing herself. She didn't really go for the second choice, which was Gangrel having her killed. The sacrifice would actually rid Chrom of the burden of having his sister die by his own choice.

[NoNameAtAll]

If Gangrel had won I presume Validar would've tried to manipulate him into taking out Valm.

I have no idea how he would've done so without Ylisse and Ferox backing him up though, so I guess Walhart would win and Validar would fail? Yay?

You forgot Excellus. He was used to try and worm his way into Walhart's favor. He ultimately would've turned on him.

[Tao]

I can't say the best choice is giving up the Emblem for Emmeryn's life, but... that's probably personal bias. However, as mentioned already, Validar was most likely going to snatch it off of Gangrel if he ever laid hands on the Fire Emblem one way or another. As for how Validar will get the other gemstones... probably by force or something. Perhaps Grima will tell him too? I'm not sure how he'll get the one from Tiki though.

[Linkmstr]

^While it's true that Gangrel wanted the Fire Emblem for selfish reasons, Validar was sort of manipluating Gangrel's situation from behind the scenes. But, was he really, or were he and Aversa simply trying to take credit for it? -shrugs- Either way, Validar would have snatched the Fire Emblem from Gangrel somehow.

Btw, the Awakening ritual is just to awaken the Falchion. It has nothing to do with the Fire Emblem.

Technically, it does matter if Chrom has the Fire Emblem for the Awakening Ritual. It's used to prove his bloodline, to activate the Falchion's true power, and being one of the reasons to defeat Grima and put it back to sleep. Also, the Fire Emblem has been used by the First Exalt of Ylisse to defeat Grima and put it to sleep.

[Renall]

You forgot Excellus. He was used to try and worm his way into Walhart's favor. He ultimately would've turned on him.

Walhart seems already aware of Excellus and quite honestly I can't see anything Excellus does doing anything. Walhart does not die when he is killed.

[Vashiane]

^While it's true that Gangrel wanted the Fire Emblem for selfish reasons, Validar was sort of manipluating Gangrel's situation from behind the scenes. But, was he really, or were he and Aversa simply trying to take credit for it? -shrugs- Either way, Validar would have snatched the Fire Emblem from Gangrel somehow.

Btw, the Awakening ritual is just to awaken the Falchion. It has nothing to do with the Fire Emblem.

Wait. Then why do they need the Emblem?

[Renall]

Wait. Then why do they need the Emblem?

They do need it. The Emblem seems to just generally be a conduit for Awakening the power of one of the godlike dragons. In Validar's case, it's to Awaken Grima in his proper vessel. In Chrom's case, it's to infuse Naga's power into the Falchion.

[Vashiane]

Oh, is it now? Alright... But that leaves me with another question.

So if it's a instrument to power a powerful dragon, whose abilities clearly can be used for evil... why isn't more of it with Tiki? That's a fairly well protected shrine, I'm fairly certain she could watch over it and hand over the emblem in dire times then.

[Klokinator]

Emmeryn comes back to life in the after game though, which implies to me that she is a magical being made of magic! Therefore she knew that aside from crushing guilt on her brother's conscience and another goddamn person in her country with amnesia, the repurcussions of her actions would be minimal at worst.

SERIOUSLY THERE'S LIKE 20 FUCKING PEOPLE WITH AMNESIA IN THIS GAME

[Vashiane]

Emmeryn comes back to life in the after game though, which implies to me that she is a magical being made of magic! Therefore she knew that aside from crushing guilt on her brother's conscience and another goddamn person in her country with amnesia, the repurcussions of her actions would be minimal at worst.

SERIOUSLY THERE'S LIKE 20 FUCKING PEOPLE WITH AMNESIA IN THIS GAME

No... only 3. ^^

And it's not magic, it's resilience. She IS the most resilient person in the army...

[Renall]

Technically the fall gave her brain damage or something so I wouldn't say it was exactly a brilliant plan on her part even if she was hoping to survive.

[Acacia Sgt]

Regardless of her actual plan, she still made a big impact, by causing the war with Plegia to end not that soon after. After all, originally it lasted for years, but Emmeryn's apparent death was enough to cut it short by a lot.

[Wyvern_Lord]

Emmeryn's sacrifice was pointless.

Let me explain: Chrom had two choices in that particular moment, hand over the Fire Emblem and spare Emmeryn's life, or sacrifice Emmeryn to keep the Fire Emblem. The best choice is clearly the first one, but because apparently Chrom can't make his own decisions, Emmeryn chooses the second choice for him.

So say Gangrel actually gets a hold of the Fire Emblem, then. What can he do with it? He'd need to get the other four gemstones, and those stones are being held by people who most likely wouldn't give them to him. He'd have to take over a shrine, overpower Tiki (a powerful Manakete and the daughter of Naga HERSELF), then wage war on THREE different nations in order to get the gemstones. And once he's gotten a hold of them? He still has the ritual.

Anyone else have anything about the game they noticed, or want to debate this theory? Come forth and discuss. :)

Emmeryns sacrifice gave enough of a distraction for chrom to escape and it helped the plegians get over their anger over the last exalt and end the war, it also helped that gangrel was a pretty bad king and had soldiers in his own army killled for trivial reasons.

Gangrel wanted the emblem as a way of stating his power and showing the Ylissians that he ment buissness and that he had beaten them, not for the awakening ritual

[shadykid]

the real reason?

this is a video game, and it needs a plot

[Acacia Sgt]

Well, to be more exact, he wanted to unite the continent so they could oppose Walhart. However, his method of choice, the time it was taking, and Validar moving strings behind the scenes led to what we see in the game so....

[Lhyonnaes]

They do need it. The Emblem seems to just generally be a conduit for Awakening the power of one of the godlike dragons. In Validar's case, it's to Awaken Grima in his proper vessel. In Chrom's case, it's to infuse Naga's power into the Falchion.

Well, to be more specific, as far as I can tell the Awakening is just a ritual that... well... Awakens any sealed/sleeping/otherwise dormant dragon spirits in the area. Nothing more, nothing less. (This after all ties into its original purpose as the Shield of Seals).

This is why it's location specific - Grima's spirit is lying dormant at the Dragon's Table, and Naga's at her shrine at Mount Prism. I'd like to see what happens if you performed the Awakening at the Ruins of Time or what remains of the Fane of Raman or the Ice Dragon Temple, but that's beside the point. If Tiki is oversleeping you might even be able to Awaken her with it, though who knows how complicated the ritual actually is (though if Chrom can perform it, it can't be that magic-intensive).

But that's a bit beside the point.What's hasn't been much addressed here is that the characters care about the Fire Emblem because it's a supremely important traditional and religious artifact in Ylisse - it's essentially a symbol of the Exalt's power. To give it up would be a symbolic surrender of the legitimacy of Ylisse's government (keep in mind that for as long as there has been substantial human civilization on the continent, the rulers of the land that was once Archanea and is now Ylisse have held the Fire Emblem.

[Tamanoir]

I can't say the best choice is giving up the Emblem for Emmeryn's life, but... that's probably personal bias. However, as mentioned already, Validar was most likely going to snatch it off of Gangrel if he ever laid hands on the Fire Emblem one way or another. As for how Validar will get the other gemstones... probably by force or something. Perhaps Grima will tell him too? I'm not sure how he'll get the one from Tiki though.

Exactly like in the Gaiden where you recruit her. She is extremely vulnerable when she's praying, remember ? And the Risen works directly for Grima.

Also, Her Sacrifice had a pretty important impact on the war against Plegia, even if it turned out to be finally not so usefull

[Green Poet]

Neither Gangrel nor Emm seemed to know the specifics of the Awakening during the events of Chapter 9; from the context of their dialogue one can assume they only know the Emblem to be capable of imparting significant powers that would able to stop an apocalyptic event if used morally.

With that limited knowledge, everyone present probably assumed Gangrel would have the FE equivalent of a nuclear weapon if they handed over the weapon; so, while Emm's sacrifice was pointless, no one would have said so.

In any case, the fact that Chrom & party gave the Emblem to Validar at some point kind of invalidates the whole "having this many gems with the Emblem already makes it more potent" theory.