Chiki Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 (edited) In the tier list thread, I brought up the following argument: 1. Tonics, Dual Attacks / Guards, Pair Ups, Supports and Forges exist in this game. 2. They make offense and defense overkill 3. Hard mode is not hard enough to warrant this overkill. 4. If hard mode is not hard enough to warrant this overkill and offense and defense are overkill in this game, then what people usually take for granted in tier lists (reliability, offense, etc. is not as important as mobility, availability and utility) is not what matters. ---- 4. Therefore, mobility and such are what matter in tier listing. Here is the hilarious reaction I received: According to Olwen's logic Ricken is just as good as Panne and Sully. Which is why I say we ignore him until he leaves. Goodness gracious me, stop arguing with Olwen. I'm not taking anything he says seriously, so you don't have to worry about debunking his brand of bullshit. This is all I have time for, but I have some changes to make and some ~opinions~ to dispense soon, so expect a post from me. Carry on! (p.s.: galeforce is bad and you should feel bad, the only person who might ever get it is sumia and that's if she goes dark flier to support henry at which point she's a pocket unit to someone worthwhile and galeforce doesnt matter) Of course, the first post is clearly missing the point, since I said nothing about Ricken having mobility. In order to prove my points, I will be doing a tier list playthrough in order to prove the following propositions: Goals 1. To prove that Sully, Panne etc. have overkill offense and defense on hard mode, and what matters is getting your Galeforces up to par early on. 2. To prove that what matters in normal FE tier lists does not apply in FE13--I will not be training Sully or Panne at all in this playthrough. I will be using Sumia, Cordelia, and some others. In normal FE tier lists, for example, FE9, it would be incomprehensible not to use someone like Titania if you were playing efficiently on hard mode. But Sully and Panne are just not necessary at all in the same way that Titania is, because things like Tonics and Pair Up exist. Rules 1. No Spotpass. This means no buying items from Spotpass or recruiting Spotpass units. 2. No Renown. 3. No skirmishes. 4. No Paralogues unless they help my turn count or reliability (getting a certain child, etc.) 5. No Avatar Logbook. 6. No RNG abuse. I'll be playing reliably this time. 7. No merchant shopping. Edited May 7, 2013 by Olwen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZemZem Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Aeine, Sumia and Cordelia, while great units, just aren't as good as fliers as previous Pegasus Knights were (namely Florina, Vanessa, Marcia, Tanith, Caeda, Catria, Palla). Galeforce is amazing, yeah, but the tier list isn't an LTC one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted May 7, 2013 Author Share Posted May 7, 2013 Aeine, Sumia and Cordelia, while great units, just aren't as good as fliers as previous Pegasus Knights were (namely Florina, Vanessa, Marcia, Tanith, Caeda, Catria, Palla). Galeforce is amazing, yeah, but the tier list isn't an LTC one. It doesn't matter if it isn't LTC. Even if it is, according to the tier list, the thing that is valued on the current tier list (reliability and killing units) can be fixed with Pair Ups, Tonics and supports and so on. So my point is that even if the tier list is an LTC one or not it doesn't make a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Shouldn't you be doing it in Lunatic+ mode? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted May 7, 2013 Author Share Posted May 7, 2013 Shouldn't you be doing it in Lunatic+ mode? Lol, that wouldn't be a tier list playthrough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titamon Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Intrigued. I will be tuning in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tao Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 (edited) Edit: never mind. liking that Sully is not being used. Maybe I'll read a bit of this playthrough. Edited May 7, 2013 by Cordelia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted May 7, 2013 Author Share Posted May 7, 2013 Yes, hard mode is not hard enough to warrant Sully and Panne going to top tier as Sumia and Cordelia can perform reliably enough. My point is that, for hard mode tier lists, offense and defense can be patched up to the point of overkill. I'll be playing on hard mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naglfar Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 the tier lists are at best an excuse for fucknuts to project stupidity onto each other (that first quoted post, man), but godspeed anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Lol, that wouldn't be a tier list playthrough. All that stuff in point 1 will likely have a cost. How do intend to prove their Galeforce access offsets this cost? It can't be turns saved, otherwise this wouldn't be a tier list playthrough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted May 7, 2013 Author Share Posted May 7, 2013 I'll show that it's all affordable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 yeah this game tosses so much money at you its not even funny he'll be fine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_ Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 300G a chapter for tonics isn't going to kill his funds. I managed to forge a +5 Brave Sword at endgame when I overbought on tonics and other random weapons, Awakening throws money at you like it's out of style. I think you should do paralogues though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwall Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 are Rescue staves allowed in this playthrough? The tier list doesn't say this upfront, but SDS mentioned that he was assuming a "gentleman's agreement" wrt Rescue-skipping. I also think you should do Paralogues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted May 7, 2013 Author Share Posted May 7, 2013 (edited) I'll do Paralogues then. And sure, they're allowed. I see no reason to listen to SDS. I have no idea why he thinks it's good manners to ban Rescue. Maybe because he can't comprehend strategies which get one low turns. Edited May 7, 2013 by Olwen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Bear Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 I'll do Paralogues then. And sure, they're allowed. I see no reason to listen to SDS. I have no idea why he thinks it's good manners to ban Rescue. Maybe because he can't comprehend strategies which get one low turns. LTC is not the point of the tier list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted May 7, 2013 Author Share Posted May 7, 2013 You don't have to agree with my love for LTCing to agree with the truth that Sully and Panne and so on have overkill offense and defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Bear Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 You don't have to agree with my love for LTCing to agree with the truth that Sully and Panne and so on have overkill offense and defense. Sully has overkill offense and defense? News to me, her growths and bases aren't exactly backing up your statement... Panne only has that in the wyvern class. I understand you love LTC but you shouldn't bring it into a tier list that's not for LTC... You could make an LTC tier list but LTCing isn't going to affect an efficiency tier list that much. Please don't take this wrong. I understand and respect your opinions I just don't quite understand what you're going out to prove. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted May 7, 2013 Author Share Posted May 7, 2013 I just told you in the post you quoted I'm not bringing in LTC to the tier list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Bear Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 I just told you in the post you quoted I'm not bringing in LTC to the tier list. When? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkhead Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 I believe Sumia and Cordelia are defenitely better than Lon'qu. SDS's criteria didn0t satisfy me very much- "bows/wind magic negate fliers". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vashiane Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 I believe Sumia and Cordelia are defenitely better than Lon'qu. SDS's criteria didn0t satisfy me very much- "bows/wind magic negate fliers". True. If you can kill the archer in 1-2 hits without having another in range, you're golden against archers, and pegasus knights usually gain a decent amount of resistance so wind magic no longer becomes a problem. Falcon Knight!Lissa scoffs at the idea of a mage using a wind tome on her, and Cordelia brushes it off like it's nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted May 7, 2013 Author Share Posted May 7, 2013 If I say you don't have to agree with my love for LTC, it means that this playthrough applies to SDS's crappy tier list as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jediabiwan Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 I'll do Paralogues then. And sure, they're allowed. I see no reason to listen to SDS. I have no idea why he thinks it's good manners to ban Rescue. Maybe because he can't comprehend strategies which get one low turns. I think they at some point agreed on no buy-able rescues or something like that. You should also follow all the teir list rules regarding paralogues and stuff. You have to follow the teir list rules (whether or not they make sense) and then prove it wrong . Abusing rescue or something gives people an excuse to throw out your entire argument. I'm very interested in seeing your results and how they can be applied and potentially disrupting much of the current tier list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tables Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 As far as I can see, you've yet to a) Define what you mean by overkill offence and defence, b) explain why it's in some way a bad thing and c) Demonstrate these characters actually satisfy the properties in your definition. Until you do that, it's kind of hard to take the argument seriously, let alone agree with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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