Alternate HM tier list

[Junkhead]

this tier list sucks dont even bother

[Da Bear]

um

Prologue is 3, Avatar saves a turn there.

Chapter 1 is 2 min (highly unlikely) or 3 reliably. No Avatar = 4 turns

Chapter 2 is 2 min (even less likely) or 3 reliably. Don't need Avatar for either of them.

Chapter 3 - any speed pair can replicate Avatar's contributions to the 4 turn, I don't think he's needed for the 3.

So Avatar saves 2-3 turns exclusively, possibly more in chapter 3.

Aran shaves turns in drafts. Hell, Nolan and Ilyana can 4 turn 1-4 with enough abuse. Edward does it somewhat reliably iirc at his averages with a Draco.

Yeah you said that a lot better than I did.

[Chiki]

Avatar can promote at level 10 instead of level 20 with a Master Seal, so Sumia and Avatar will always be around the same level.

[Anouleth]

I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say. Mia does shave a turn in Chapter 9 via a shove.

Boyd is the only other one who can do it, and he is more likely to be in play. But just because he is more likely to shave that turn doesn't mean Mia should get no credit. Mia gets credit for having the potential to shave a turn.

"A unit saves turns if and only if the lowest possible turncount for a chapter is higher without their presence."

There is no such thing as getting credit for "having potential" to shave a turn. There is no ambiguity, either Mia saves a turn or she doesn't; and because the lowest possible turncount in Chapter 9 is unchanged whether she exists or not, she does not save any turns. This is your definition of what it means to "save a turn", not mine.

This is why this tier list will be useful for drafters and efficiency players alike.

Only if you ignore your own rules, as you seem to do with the FE9 list.

[Chiki]

There is no such thing as getting credit for "having potential" to shave a turn. There is no ambiguity, either Mia saves a turn or she doesn't; and because the lowest possible turncount in Chapter 9 is unchanged whether she exists or not, she does not save any turns. This is your definition of what it means to "save a turn", not mine.

I said nothing about the characters used in the next lowest possible clear in that definition to leave it purposefully vague. The next lowest possible clear may or may not have a promoted Boyd.

What matters is the existence of those possible clears. If there are many possible clears that shave turns but many characters can all replicate it, then they all get a tiny amount of credit for it. But Mia gets half credit for being able to shave a Chapter 9 turn along with Boyd.

Though if you think I should update my criteria with that extra definition, I will.

[Espinosa]

I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say. Mia does shave a turn in Chapter 9 via a shove.

Boyd is the only other one who can do it, and he is more likely to be in play. But just because he is more likely to shave that turn doesn't mean Mia should get no credit. Mia gets credit for having the potential to shave a turn.

Didn't we establish Soren and Ilyana can both imitate this Shove utility in chapter 9? You'll have to your bust your ass feeding Soren kills in the prior chapters though (maybe even give him the robe), but he'll repay you more than Mia would, or even Boyd.

So that's four possible ways of shoving/dropping Ike for the 6-turn.

If Marcia isn't recruited (i.e. in draft play by all but one player), or any one of Titania, Oscar, Rhys, Boyd cannot be used (most likely the case), the situational contribution Mia has becomes absolutely irrelevant.

[Da Bear]

Avatar can promote at level 10 instead of level 20 with a Master Seal, so Sumia and Avatar will always be around the same level.

I fail to understand how this changes things. Sumia still has seven move and filght vs. Avatar having 6 move and staying on the ground. Oh and no Anna shops makes the first master seal come in Chapter 8... same as the first second seal.

[Anouleth]

um

Prologue is 3, Avatar saves a turn there.

Chapter 1 is 2 min (highly unlikely) or 3 reliably. No Avatar = 4 turns

Chapter 2 is 2 min (even less likely) or 3 reliably. Don't need Avatar for either of them.

Chapter 3 - any speed pair can replicate Avatar's contributions to the 4 turn, I don't think he's needed for the 3.

So Avatar saves 2-3 turns exclusively, possibly more in chapter 3.

Aran shaves turns in drafts. Hell, Nolan and Ilyana can 4 turn 1-4 with enough abuse. Edward does it somewhat reliably iirc at his averages with a Draco.

um

Prologue is 3, Avatar saves a turn there.

Chapter 1 is 2 min (highly unlikely) or 3 reliably. No Avatar = 4 turns

Chapter 2 is 2 min (even less likely) or 3 reliably. Don't need Avatar for either of them.

Chapter 3 - any speed pair can replicate Avatar's contributions to the 4 turn, I don't think he's needed for the 3.

So Avatar saves 2-3 turns exclusively, possibly more in chapter 3.

Aran shaves turns in drafts. Hell, Nolan and Ilyana can 4 turn 1-4 with enough abuse. Edward does it somewhat reliably iirc at his averages with a Draco.

You misunderstand. Olwen says that his tier listing criteria can be used to gauge whether a character is good in a draft. As a counterexample, I mention Aran. As far as I know, Aran does not save any turns under Olwen's tier list criteria, because the minimum turn count for every chapter is the same regardless if he exists or not. Whereas, Aran is quite a good character in a draft and can save quite a lot of turns.

[Chiki]

Didn't we establish Soren and Ilyana can both imitate this Shove utility in chapter 9? You'll have to your bust your ass feeding Soren kills in the prior chapters though (maybe even give him the robe), but he'll repay you more than Mia would, or even Boyd.

So that's four possible ways of shoving/dropping Ike for the 6-turn.

If Marcia isn't recruited (i.e. in draft play by all but one player), or any one of Titania, Oscar, Rhys, Boyd cannot be used (most likely the case), the situational contribution Mia has becomes absolutely irrelevant.

We didn't establish that, because Soren can't get those kills because he is just plain crap prior to getting any form of bexp. So is Ilyana. They can't get enough exp unlike Mia or Boyd.

This is off topic, though.

As far as I know, Aran does not save any turns under Olwen's tier list criteria, because the minimum turn count for every chapter is the same regardless if he exists or not. Whereas, Aran is quite a good character in a draft and can save quite a lot of turns.

Remember I haven't even tiered Aran on my FE10 tier list yet. I can see him going to a decent tier eventually.

Anyone wanna help me with the complexity ratings and the top tier?

Edited May 11, 2013 by Olwen

[Redwall]

I fail to understand how this changes things. Sumia still has seven move and filght vs. Avatar having 6 move and staying on the ground. Oh and no Anna shops makes the first master seal come in Chapter 8... same as the first second seal.

In my ongoing Lunatic LTC, I got Avatar to Lv 15 Dark Flier in Ch 14; with some rational favoritism, it is not so hard. I guess one problem is that doing this in HM may delay Galeforce for Sumia and/or Cordelia, but considering that Morgan can just get it through inheritance, I don't think it's a huge problem.

[Anouleth]

I said nothing about the characters used in the next lowest possible clear in that definition to leave it purposefully vague. The next lowest possible clear may or may not have a promoted Boyd.

No, it has to have a promoted Boyd or it's not the next lowest possible clear.

We are including every possible option here. This means that all characters are available for use. Otherwise, we are not including every possible option. Mia is only of value if we exclude the option to use Boyd in her place. In the same way, Boyd is only of value if we exclude the option to use Mia.

[Chiki]

No, it has to have a promoted Boyd or it's not the next lowest possible clear.

We are including every possible option here. This means that all characters are available for use. Otherwise, we are not including every possible option. Mia is only of value if we exclude the option to use Boyd in her place. In the same way, Boyd is only of value if we exclude the option to use Mia.

Which lowest possible clear? The one with or without Boyd?

A unit saves turns if and only if the lowest possible turncount for a chapter is higher without their presence.

I say nothing about which lowest possible turncount is considered, or the context.

[Randa]

I think we have an issue with the tier list already. If this is for drafts then we should be doing it on draftable characters.

[Anouleth]

Which lowest possible clear? The one with or without Boyd?

I say nothing about which lowest possible turncount is considered, or the context.

There's only one lowest possible turncount, obviously.

[charlie_]

It's not for drafts. Olwen is just saying it can be applied to drafts. Drafts also aren't always on the same difficulty as what the list assumes, so...

[Junkhead]

I think Libra should get a higher place in this list. In draft context, he helps out quite well with Rescue staff. Should be doing the same in an LTC context, granted he's sharing his role with Anna so they are /kind of/ interchangable, at least for filling out the staffer role.

[Da Bear]

@Soul the problem is he becomes a pain to keep alive in future chapters and you will probably have people like Miriel and or Ricken rescuing. Libra can help with long chains for one-turn clears but in two or three turn clears he'll often end up dying.

Also Olwen qq.

If unit X can always get the second best turn counts but to do so he has to take EXP from unit Y who is getting the very lowest clears would unit X be the second highest character on the list or would he be lower because he takes away the chance of getting the lowest possible chance?

[Chiki]

There's only one lowest possible turn count--but which characters are used for that one? That is left vague.

And Y would go down more due to hogging X's exp.

[charlie_]

So everyone goes down for eating Nowi's lunch?

I assume it's more the resources required, rather than stealing exp itself?

[Chiki]

It's the cost of using resources that matters.

[Elieson]

It's the cost of using resources that matters.

Resources don't earn you galeforce faster. EXP does.

[Chiki]

Exp is a resource.

No one has any idea about the top tier? If so I'll make a preliminary one to discuss.

[Chiki]

Top Tier

Sumia

Cordelia

Olivia

Lucina (Avatar)

Frederick

I put Lucina up there because she can change her class or inherit Galeforce from the Avatar.

[Redwall]

Galeforce Morgan as Avatar's son might want to be in top tier. As I mentioned in your playthrough topic, passing Galeforce to Lucina requires a turncount investment which she doesn't repay in the long term; meanwhile, Morgan's Paralogue can be delayed if need be.

In my Lunatic playthrough, I deliberately wasted one turn in Ch 14 to get Galeforce, and I wasted another to train Morgan in his Paralogue, but I believe this was rational since I needed him to be strong in order to two-turn Tiki's Paralogue (which would otherwise have taken six or seven turns); the problem is that I don't know if burning those two turns is rational in Hard mode. I could see Galeforce being obtained midway through Ch 15 in a standard Hard LTC without this sort of pseudo-sandbagging, but getting Morgan up to speed may be difficult if postponing his Paralogue until after Ch 15 since C15 is a good training ground for him. If, on the other hand, Galeforce is acquired in Ch 14 or earlier, then this problem doesn't really exist, and Morgan shouldn't have any problems getting strong.

Edited May 11, 2013 by Redwall

[Chiki]

Lucina to high, Morgan in her position?