LTC

[Espinosa]

Yeah, I did and he whiffed, and I didn't keep going (ended up ganging up on him and killing him with 40ish hit rates). Stole a Steel Sword though, but who cares.

There's no problem in attacking Zach at 1-range, unless the AK blocking the way refuses to move on turn 1, but 8 move Lionel should eliminate that obstacle with ease. AS isn't really the biggest of Sun's concerns, but Zachariah is a character with some of the highest base strength stats amongst recruitable units in this game, tying with Loffaru and losing only to the two endgame lords) and a Silver Sword equipped, so Sun will need shields if she dares attack at 1-range. Better to just chip away at 2-range with Pila; so easy with the Charge skill.

[dondon151]

fair enough

regarding sierra's early recruitment, does shigen have to die at the sealed bridge, or can he die earlier? it might just be easier to suicide him to the dragon in chapter 21 since you probably don't need him in chapters 22 and 23.

Edited June 13, 2013 by dondon151

[Espinosa]

Karla won't let Shigen truly die before that, but Sierra will not join until map 31, which means she misses several maps where she could've been useful and the possibility of Morse Tower training is also gone.

Shigen won't die to the dragon no matter how you go about it, or at least he doesn't have to if you glue him to his Prf sword.

Just did the first random cave with a Silver Axe and a Death tome (16 uses remaining) stolen. Neat neat. One of the chests contained an Armorslayer too, for what it's worth.

Also, I just tutored Plum Plains Fighter in advance, and now my party doesn't have any money left (Shigen took the Hero Proof, the C17 one probably going to Attrom) and I had to sell a Charm just to achieve that.

I looked up a video of the Luna Sword in action on YT (from our very own Ayanami no less) and the boss has 0 defence displayed even before his Silver Shield breaks. I would estimate that as long as we are able to tutor Raffin PF some time later after the second split, the 1-turn is in our pocket, probably figured out.

The new question is: does Attrom need City Fighter to recruit Renee faster? She can then Warp Holmes to seize the same turn assuming somebody lures the boss away the previous turn.

[dondon151]

no, i mean, will sierra join after the second division if shigen dies before the sealed bridge (e.g., in chapter 21)? i would just really rather charge through the sealed bridge and get done with it faster if i can kill off shigen earlier, since him actually dying in chapter 21 would be killing two birds with one stone.

what's your target for chapter 29? it has to be 3 turns minimum. if attrom starts in the closest position, he can easily reach renee by turn 3 regardless of where she goes, even if he is unpromoted w/o CF. then renee just has to warp holmes to the gate. if holmes doesn't have CF, there are 4 tiles to the left of the gate that renee can occupy on turn 3 so that she can reach holmes and warp him.

so i don't know how exactly to manipulate renee's movement that way, but i'm assuming it can be done, in which case neither attrom nor holmes needs to be tutored CF, and attrom doesn't even need to be promoted.

right now we've settled on the following tutors

runan: sea fighter (chapter 1 or 3) - shaves 1 turn from chapter 24

holmes: frontier fighter (brahd, 7000G) - saves turns on a lot of maps

yuni: frontier fighter (brahd, 7000G) - shaves 1 turn from chapter 16, maybe something from chapter 21?

plum: plains fighter (brahd, 7000G) - helps shave 1 turn from chapter 34

raffin: plains fighter (chapter 17) - helps shave 1 turn from chapter 34

plum: frontier fighter (fort ligria encounter) - don't think it will really do anything, but who knows

in addition, i would tutor sasha the chapter 7 arena fighter if i'm using her. so what else? i guess if i wanted to LTC the encounter maps before chapter 20, teaching mountain fighter to mahter or frau would let me 1-turn the glace mummy map if i wanted to also train sun, but the cave encounters are too random to really consider...

Edited June 13, 2013 by dondon151

[PKL]

Im so confused, whos that mount with like 15 strength all of a sudden that got an almost perfect level?

[dondon151]

that's zeek. his growth rates are ridiculous but he leaves the team after chapter 23 a la orson.

also i'm going to make a thread with terrain types for each chapter for quick reference because doga blockovich's sticky is incomplete and looking up maps individually on WoD is a pain.

Edited June 13, 2013 by dondon151

[Espinosa]

Such a thread already exists, check out the second spoiler in the OP:

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=28003

Probably our best tier list too since Krisheenu and Renee aren't in Top Tier (which make the other tier lists look silly, among other things that also kinda stand out).

So Holmes might also need City Fighter, perhaps even more than Attrom (or not), hmmm...

The problem with that map is that Renee does all sorts of wild things during EP like Warping other enemies to ambush you, so I don't know how easy she is to manipulate.

On another note, I enter chapter 20 with a 9 move Lionel. Jesus.

[dondon151]

oh, you should tell a mod to move that thread to this forum

i've seen renee prioritize healing an enemy over warping it if the enemy is weakened. i don't know how easy that is to do if sierra is buffed enough that she kills everything.

[Espinosa]

Looks like it's done already.

Also I'm doing map 21 and I'm able to open both the chests with Holmes in just 3 turns; however, this isn't enough to end the map, and when the dragon leaves, nothing happens either. I'm pretty sure I've always routed the map though.

Maybe I'm just opening the chests too early? idk.

[PKL]

That seems like a pretty OP cavalier then. How long is TRS anyway? o-o

[dondon151]

it's 40 chapters long (though one can be skipped, and there are several non-chapter maps that are mandatory), and zeek leaves after chapter 23.

espinosa, if you open the chests early, try routing the map afterwards and see if it ends. don't the enemies flood in from the sides of the map the same turn that the dragon leaves?

Edited June 14, 2013 by dondon151

[Espinosa]

Yeah, confirming that the map is to be routed once the chests have been opened (or the other way around, but I don't see a reason for that).

There is hardly any difficulty with the dragon though, which is good news. Just choke his points.

6 turns does seem like the absolute minimum for the map. There are 3 Summoners who will not only ignore attacking you directly but will produce additional armies of monsters to give you a headache (many of these monsters are hard to ORKO), and there are 4 Dark Priests with 2-3 range spells who won't suicide into Lionel or Sun on EP. Add to that the army at the bottom of the map and the 2 re-warping Witches. Don't think a 5-turn is even theoretically possible even if drastic measures are taken (e.g. fielding Zeek).

Also, I'm running out of Pila and there's a Brigand blocking my access to the weaponry from the previous map that sells these. Good thing you can buy some in the next map after C21.

I've completely forgotten how quickly you run out of these when you use Sun's Charge skill. It's really hard NOT to ORKO with this skill on player phase though.

[dondon151]

hey, have you thought about how you're going to defeat julius in chapter 35? it seems like he moves to attack units in range. runan's team will probably not have warp, and i doubt that sierra can ORKO julius even with a death crit - his 24 luk notwithstanding, sierra needs 36 atk, which is impossible without a magic staff boost.

it's possible to get an 8 mov mounted unit in range on turn 1 if you tutor either him or plum city fighter. you need 39 atk to OHKO julius, since doubling him is basically impossible. 39 atk should be feasible with a power staff boost, but then you have to proc a crit against his 24 luk using weapons that have no innate crit. WoD lists him as lacking nihil, but trying to proc a skill against him seems highly unlikely since he has 25 skl. the best way to proc a crit will be to have life or death on a mounted unit...

the other idea that i had was to tutor plum city fighter, then use a power staff'd loffarl to ORKO julius with a gatling bow. he needs a pow plus to reach the requisite str, but he should 4HKO julius on the dot. the hit rate is rather suspect, but loffarl does have a 15% support with sasha, plus sasha's charisma, plus lan's mirror. and he has life or death, too, but i'm not sure if he will be weakened at all.

EDIT: wait, julius's shield negates critical hits. i think we want city fighter on plum here.

Edited June 15, 2013 by dondon151

[Espinosa]

According to Dio's sticky, he does have Nihil and he only moves on Enemy Phase 3. The "classic" way of killing him is giving Loffaru a Gatling Bow and a Power Staff boost for a 4HKO. Loffaru needs 3 strength procs to achieve the 4HKO, but we don't have to rig these because Sierra can just finish the job on the same turn.

I'm counting the squares though and it seems like Loffaru is one square short of reaching the boss on turn 2 assuming Plum isn't also given City Fighter (that's another 7K to be spent before the second split). A 9 move Lionel can get to the boss to attack at point-blank range however, and should probably receive the Master Spear from map 26a since doubling is not possible. If we assume the extremity - max 22 str Lionel - he'll have 44x2 atk with the Master Lance against Julius's 20 def, dealing 48/58 HP damage. Sierra should then easily finish the boss off with Sylpheed.

He comes with a Goddess Shield so critting him is out.

[dondon151]

i'm counting that loffarl can get in gatling bow range of julius on turn 2. start plum in slot 11. she won't need city fighter for this, either. (unless there is some terrain in the middle of the map that i can't see.)

i don't think that using lionel @ master lance is such a great idea. even with max agi, julius doubles lionel and the canaan lance restores HP. sierra won't be able to KO julius unless julius misses lionel twice.

anyway i noticed that the first encounter before chapter 20 always has the same enemies and the same player starting positions, but the remaining three encounters don't. should we try to LTC the first encounter? i got 3 turns pretty easily, but i don't think it's doable in 2 because the boss doesn't move.

Edited June 15, 2013 by dondon151

[Espinosa]

You're right; I don't know why I was counting with the assumption that Plum starts on position number 10.

Sierra can start by attacking Julius with Sylpheed, blocking his counterattack (and therefore healing), after which Lionel can attack with the Master Lance - Julius doesn't get to counter this way.

I suppose in this situation (=Lionel with at least two move procs - mine already has 3, which enables him to move further and engage more enemies for more experience), what matters is who has the best hit rates. Gatling Bow has 65 hit, and you need to connect 4 of these (perhaps just three will do if strength is high enough; I guess it also depends on how magically strong Sierra is), while Master Lance has 80 and you need to connect both attacks. Loffaru has base 16 skill, 20% growth, while Lionel is guaranteed to have at least 8 skill (with promotion bonuses) with a 30% growth and more than enough opportunities to level, namely before the second split where Holmes is absent.

WRT City Fighter on Plum - this could be a decent idea. Many of endgame maps are City, so the question is if the extra point of move helps shave off any turns on any of them.

Edited June 15, 2013 by Espinosa

[dondon151]

oh duh, of course sylpheed is OP

i'm not going to have a mov-blessed lionel, so i will go with pow plus on loffarl @ gatling bow.

if plum is going runan/runan, CF probably won't save any turns. we've already confirmed that plum doesn't need CF to help 3-turn chapter 26, 2-turn chapter 35, 6-turn chapter 36, or 1-turn chapter 39. the only variable is chapter 37. plum also doesn't need CF to help runan reach the pedestal in 4 turns (in fact, even CF won't help here because runan has 7 mov, so it's impossible for plum to dance runan twice if he's going in only one direction), though whether runan can feasibly do that is questionable because he has to walk through the mob of dragons. maybe he can grab a main gauche and pray; i heard that the dragons like to kill each other, too. in any case, plum's movement would only be significant if she needs to help runan backtrack after he picks up the seiken reeve, in which case she does need CF in order to dance him on turn 5 after he has grabbed the seiken reeve on turn 4. but in order to do this, she also needs to walk through the mob of dragons.

so if 5-turning chapter 37 is possible, then plum probably needs CF, otherwise she doesn't.

[Espinosa]

It's interesting that you raise the issue of chapter 37 because I also keep bringing up the image of the chapter in my head and imagine somebody baiting the last dragon alive to Runan so that Runan kills him with the legendary blade after being danced by Plum.

I'd actually argue the contrary after the same thought experiment (i.e. Runan with a Main Gauche and maybe somebody else following him with a Lan's Mirror, as if that matters) - that if we can 5-turn the map somehow, then we'll manage to lure the last dragon towards Runan so that he can reach him on turn 5. My Runan already has 13 strength, which is at least 16 when promoted (I'm sure he'll get more kills until chapter 37 though - map 36 alone is perfect training grounds and that's also far from where we currently are in this challenge run), so I'm more or less convinced that he can tear the last dragon to pieces in one turn (a Save Staff usage may or may not be needed, but between critting, proccing Adept or getting a Rising Dragon activation his chances of getting extra damage in seem very high). Meanwhile, Plum can assist the other characters in the rout, but there's not a whole lot after the summoners and the witches are eliminated.

Also, I'm putting the 2nd split Plum idea to doubt for the last time. Between splits 2 and 3, Holmes's party has 4 maps, while Runan has 3. One of Holmes's maps can be 1-turned by either Sierra or Armorslayer Raffin (a Sierra with 2 AGI Ups just destroys the boss) and the last one is a trivial warpskip because nobody is protecting the throne. Meanwhile, Runan reaches his thrones in all 3 maps in one turn sooner, so the only question is whether Plum can save two turns in map 29 where Renee is recruited, and while we haven't dismantled this map to fully understand it yet, it seems that it will probably just save one turn, so there's little reason not to send Plum with Runan for the last two splits.

On another note, I'm working on a possible 5-turn of map 21; not sure where this is going, but it seems that Katri can transform and wipe out a bulk of the enemies with re-Warp/2-3 range so that the rest suicide into somebody like Vega after the more problematic ones are dead. Getting Katri there is a problem in itself though (it's not too bad with 5 move Plum because Katri can then revert to human form then get refreshed to transform again to reach the destination sooner), but I think Shigen can use his sword to lure the dragon to the southwestern corner of the map, though I haven't managed to achieve that just yet (so far the strat is that Shigen and Katri corner him and he just spams firebreath vs Shigen because nobody else is in range).

[dondon151]

I'd actually argue the contrary after the same thought experiment (i.e. Runan with a Main Gauche and maybe somebody else following him with a Lan's Mirror, as if that matters) - that if we can 5-turn the map somehow, then we'll manage to lure the last dragon towards Runan so that he can reach him on turn 5. My Runan already has 13 strength, which is at least 16 when promoted (I'm sure he'll get more kills until chapter 37 though - map 36 alone is perfect training grounds and that's also far from where we currently are in this challenge run), so I'm more or less convinced that he can tear the last dragon to pieces in one turn (a Save Staff usage may or may not be needed, but between critting, proccing Adept or getting a Rising Dragon activation his chances of getting extra damage in seem very high). Meanwhile, Plum can assist the other characters in the rout, but there's not a whole lot after the summoners and the witches are eliminated.

the only issue is, of course, making sure that the dragon follows runan instead of someone else. there's also the issue of getting someone to kill the boss twice, but sierra with 19 agi can do that with sylpheed.

there's no way that plum can save 2 turns in chapter 29. the chinaFE guy 3-turned without plum. even 2-turning that map is highly unlikely, and i think it's only possible with promoted attrom @ city fighter.

i'll get back to you on your chapter 21 idea after i eat.

[dondon151]

okay, the 5-turn of chapter 21 is ambitious, but i still don't see it.

katri can go to the bottom left corner of the map and basically eliminate all of the enemies there single-handedly - she needs a plum dance to kill all of them. with that done, there are still 3 summoners, 4 evil worm sorcs, and a witch left on the map. you only have 6 combat units.

now i do know that the AI does some funny stuff, like in yaymarsha's mock run where the witches killed themselves on narron instead of attacking a defenseless plum or lyria. also, if there is a way to make sorcerors attack holmes at 3-range (who can counter with longbow) over a unit who can't counter at 3-range, theoretically holmes can counter-kill both of the sorcs at the top of the map if he stands at the edge of their range and a strong unit blocks the chokepoint directly north (so that all of the dark knights KO themselves on the choking unit and the sorcerors KO themselves on holmes). the only way that i can think of for this to certainly work is if zeek has at least 18 mag plus a magic shield so that he takes no damage from evil worm. it could be that the enemies prioritize damage over no counters like in FE12 (but i doubt this since in yaymarsha's video, the witches prioritized 4 mag narron over 0 mag lionel), which means that it will definitely work.

so if you can manipulate the AI into doing that funny stuff, the 5-turn is possible, otherwise...

i'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the matter here, because i could be missing something important. it's a shame that rishel isn't available by this map, because he could solo one of the sides with sunflame - at base, no less, since he has just enough AS to double the dark knights and the evil worm sorcs.

Edited June 15, 2013 by dondon151

[Espinosa]

erk, no 5-turn is possible. I just realised why I sounded so certain while not convincing you one bit. I remembered that the allied units appear on turn 5, but it doesn't happen until after the enemy phase so their first action is delayed until turn 6.

My plan was to have Katri go northeast and burn 6 units alive (incl. 2 DPs and one Witch) while Vega kills the Summoners, the DKs suiciding into Vega on EP. The north is dealt with by Sun, Mahter (can hide from everyone on the mountain after killing a DP as long as she has at least 9 str, or maybe even less if she has enough AGI to wield a Steel Lance) and Lionel - Plum needs to dance Sun cantoing, and Sun needs to equip herself to ORKO folks on EP with maybe Holmes' help (whose participation mostly makes EP countering ineffective). Meanwhile Shigen somehow reaches the Witch in the south and ORKOs her, while the allied units rout the rest.

Since they only act a turn later, none of this is possible of course, but it would be pretty doable otherwise.

So yeah,

A 6-turn, on the other hand, changes things considerably, turning it into a rather lax chapter (I figured out how to block the dragon right on my first attempt ffs), so I think I'll focus on making the most out of exp distribution, though I think Katri could still go northeast because reaching it with your other guys is a little difficult. Transforming Katri has always been a bad idea until now because it shaves no turns off while robbing you out of combat exp. Though I guess in case of, like, chapter 12 where your units are still scrubs and die to 3 hits (besides Vega with Shram), a breath would help you to not die but I wanted to take the risk and get the exp unto the right units ASAP.

[Espinosa]

I was just having fun rotating the character menus with the shoulder buttons and the following got to my understanding:

Yuni takes no move penalties in the sand.

With FF on both her and Plum, I have a feeling we could get more than one treasure before Runan is able to seize. POW Plus is a little close to the dracoknights, AGI and MAG Pluses a little less so, and there's also this really gimmicky one... THE MUG SCROLL.

Might be worth thinking if there's any use for this, and whether it would backfire. I'm thinking Sierra wouldn't be an entirely bad user of Mug, since she is often separated from the rest of the party due to the nature of her movement. I'm already seeing a problem with that idea however (like the anti-Julius strat I described earlier - Sierra ends up reducing the second bosskiller's chances of connecting attacks drastically). But still, we can get some cool stuff with this one.

[dondon151]

i'm not clear on when the enemy DKs start moving; aquilae's guide says "when you get in range of their leader," but they definitely moved sooner than that in yaymarsha's mock run. that could pose a potential problem. a 10 mag pegasus knight with thunder sword can ORKO all of them, though.

argh! another one of my posts got eaten, and i typed quite a bit too. short summary:

in chapter 25, if plum dances runan on turn 1, she can dance yuni on turn 2. yuni can then grab:

turn 2: luk plus or canto manual (is it true that infantry can't learn canto?)

turn 3: mag plus

turn 4: skl plus or agi plus

turn 5: pow plus

turn 6: get danced by plum, pick up mug manual

opinion on mug: it comes too late to be very useful, but you can definitely have fun with it. if you tutor it to sierra, she can mug ernst in chapter 34, then you can use the silver shield that he comes with on lionel against julius in chapter 35. if lionel has close to 15 def, he'll take almost no damage from the canaan lance, and then you can mug julius, too!

Edited June 16, 2013 by dondon151

[Espinosa]

That's hardly the first time I hear this - you should, like, save the posts in Notepad or at least Ctrl + C them before hitting the Post button.

Actually all those Magic Shields you can mug from endgame bosses sound pretty delicious.

That's a pretty elaborate plan. Re-Movement book is preferred over LUK Plus because it gives Loffaru some flexibility in terms of movement, and we did waste one of the two Re-Move scrolls available on Zeek. And I think I'll want the AGI Plus over the SKL Plus. As good as +9 hit/+3 crit is, doubling over not doubling sounds more important.

Yeah, Re-Move is for mounted units only. Zeek couldn't canto until he got on a horse next chapter to learn the skill.

The DKs sound like a huge problem however and might require some uses of the Save staff to successfully take out. I'm not sure how probable a 10 magic flier is (if Mahter doesn't get the flute she can't tank their attacks at all) but it sounds like an unreasonable expectation from a player even though unpromoted Mahter gets there at L17 on average, and Sasha gets there at L11. The dracos support each other which results in some pretty mean displayed crit, so that's a big problem. Rishuel deals with them with ease in casual runs (actually they are afraid to engage him on EP so he has to chase them) but that's not a possibility. I think Mahter with a Pilium and a Power Staff boost will do the best job against these guys, if we are to engage them.

Dio's sticky states that the dracos move beginning with EP 6 OR when somebody gets in range. In YayMarsha's video you mention, they start moving after turn 3. I think the key to understanding this might be the "in range" part. Probably it's some extended range we're talking about here, akin to the pulling mechanic that exists in the DS games for instance.

[Espinosa]

I've been kinda concerned about Lyria's Power staff usage recently, because right now I have 10 uses remaining (so far used 4 times, 3 of them in chapter 16) after giving Sun the boost to ORKO Zachariah more reliably. Since it's a unique weapon, you cannot repair it with a hammer, but you can do it with the Repair staff. After giving Yuni one WLv Plus, I still have two left, which should be enough to bring Rebecca to the necessary WLv to use the staff (she needs one proc and one stat booster or both boosters - I'm hoping she could staffbot with a Physic staff to get the proc). Have no clue what to do with the Wlv Pluses outside of that so I might as well give Rebecca both.

My +38 crit Iron Lance has 2 uses left so I think a Repair Hammer wouldn't be out of place here. Should be a highly useful thing for Runan's 2nd split chapters.

Also, as nice as theorycrafting Mug!Sierra was, she does need one turn to actually consume the scroll, and the first Runan map (where we'll be able to directly transfer the scroll to her) is Ernest's map that we plan to 1-turn, so it looks like it's a pretty worthless decision in the long run. I guess if you have Raffin go with Runan (I can't because I didn't teach him Plains Fighter) he could learn Mug and then rob Ernest, but he'd be a liability to the rest of the team whenever he isn't soloing enemies on his own. He can't rob Julius either. Might as well sell the scroll if I get it.

Map 23 is next so I have to decide if I'm teaching Plum City Fighter or not. Right now I don't feel like it's a good idea.