How about a FE with only 35 characters, tops? Maybe less?

[Shadow Mir]

Also, GotHW wasn't the pinnacle of balance but it really wasn't more unbalanced than RD is. At best, they're even. At worse, RD is worse when it comes to character balance.

I fail to see how RD is worse with character balance than (or even comes close to being as unbalanced as) Genealogy when Holy Blood exists in Genealogy.

That aside, I don't really care how large the cast size is.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[Refa]

hey I never said otherwise

gameplay is terribly unbalanced though

That was a seperate comment for da thread.

[shadykid]

Sacred Stones had a better story than Radiant Dawn and Shadow Dragon, and part of that can be tied to the characters.

Also, GotHW wasn't the pinnacle of balance but it really wasn't more unbalanced than RD is. At best, they're even. At worse, RD is worse when it comes to character balance.

I'm sure there are others who have debated this multiple times, but RD is actually fairly balanced

[Mighty Kamina]

Also, GotHW wasn't the pinnacle of balance but it really wasn't more unbalanced than RD is. At best, they're even. At worse, RD is worse when it comes to character balance.

Four words.

Swords and Wind Magic. That is all.

But anyways, I'd be fine with a smaller cast as long as they are all fleshed out.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Zelos

[Anouleth]

Four words.

Swords and Wind Magic. That is all.

Yeah, swords and wind magic were sooooo powerful. Azel and Arden > Lex, they get swords and wind magic and he has to use axes!

[Mighty Kamina]

Yeah, swords and wind magic were sooooo powerful. Azel and Arden > Lex, they get swords and wind magic and he has to use axes!

Arden is an Armor Knight in a game with massive maps, and Azel can't get wind magic until chapter 4.

[Anouleth]

Arden is an Armor Knight in a game with massive maps,

So you're saying that movement is much more important than weapon type? Why did you bitch about swords and wind magic then, rather than the massive gap between mounted and unmounted units?

and Azel can't get wind magic until chapter 4.

Azel can get wind magic as soon as he promotes, because then he can use Lewyn's Elwind tome.

Edited June 1, 2013 by Anouleth

[Mighty Kamina]

So you're saying that movement is much more important than weapon type? Why did you bitch about swords and wind magic then, rather than the massive gap between mounted and unmounted units?

Azel can get wind magic as soon as he promotes, because then he can use Lewyn's Elwind tome.

The movement is a bigger problem for Arden than any other unmounted unit. (Granted it's still a problem)

Yes Azel can use Lewyn's Elwind tome upon promotion, but Lewyn has more use for it (Until he gets Forseti that is) than Azel does.

Edited June 1, 2013 by Zelos

[Refa]

The movement is a bigger problem for Arden than any other unmounted unit. (Granted it's still a problem)

Yes Azel can use Lewyn's Elwind tome upon promotion, but Lewyn has more use for it (Until he gets Forseti that is) than Azel does.

If you somehow have promoted Azel before Lewyn gets Holsety, Azel does in fact use it better.

Edited June 1, 2013 by Refa

[Shadow Mir]

So you're saying that movement is much more important than weapon type? Why did you bitch about swords and wind magic then, rather than the massive gap between mounted and unmounted units?

Azel can get wind magic as soon as he promotes, because then he can use Lewyn's Elwind tome.

The movement is a bigger problem for Arden than any other unmounted unit. (Granted it's still a problem)

Yes Azel can use Lewyn's Elwind tome upon promotion, but Lewyn has more use for it (Until he gets Forseti that is) than Azel does.

Well, to be fair, I consider both the lightness of swords and wind magic and the maps being ginormous to factor into why FE4 is so unbalanced.

[Anouleth]

Well, to be fair, I consider both the lightness of swords and wind magic and the maps being ginormous to factor into why FE4 is so unbalanced.

Except that FE4 is unbalanced in the same way as every other fire emblem: strong mounted units dominate, everyone else is left in the dust. Lex, even though he doesn't use swords, is among the best mounts, and Finn isn't far behind either, for all that people bleat of swords being really strong, while Dew, Arden and Azel are considered some of the worst units in first generation. If swords were made weaker, maybe Sigurd would be less overpowered, but Dew and Arden would be even more underpowered, and the balance of the game would still be bad.

It's true that swords and wind magic are powerful, but that's more a function of three divine swords and the divine wind tome being available throughout most of second generation, rather than anything to do with their lower weight. That's the real imbalance in FE4: between mounted units and foot units, and between holy weapon users and units without major holy blood.

[viyut]

The real problem with FE4's gameplay was both Pursuit and horses. The lack of pursuit made some characters almost useless...

[Shadow Mir]

Except that FE4 is unbalanced in the same way as every other fire emblem: strong mounted units dominate, everyone else is left in the dust. Lex, even though he doesn't use swords, is among the best mounts, and Finn isn't far behind either, for all that people bleat of swords being really strong, while Dew, Arden and Azel are considered some of the worst units in first generation. If swords were made weaker, maybe Sigurd would be less overpowered, but Dew and Arden would be even more underpowered, and the balance of the game would still be bad.

It's true that swords and wind magic are powerful, but that's more a function of three divine swords and the divine wind tome being available throughout most of second generation, rather than anything to do with their lower weight. That's the real imbalance in FE4: between mounted units and foot units, and between holy weapon users and units without major holy blood.

Conceded.

^True. But Holy Blood didn't help matters either.,

[shadykid]

Except that FE4 is unbalanced in the same way as every other fire emblem: strong mounted units dominate, everyone else is left in the dust. Lex, even though he doesn't use swords, is among the best mounts, and Finn isn't far behind either, for all that people bleat of swords being really strong, while Dew, Arden and Azel are considered some of the worst units in first generation. If swords were made weaker, maybe Sigurd would be less overpowered, but Dew and Arden would be even more underpowered, and the balance of the game would still be bad.

It's true that swords and wind magic are powerful, but that's more a function of three divine swords and the divine wind tome being available throughout most of second generation, rather than anything to do with their lower weight. That's the real imbalance in FE4: between mounted units and foot units, and between holy weapon users and units without major holy blood.

it may not quite have been due to weapon weights, but FE4 was easily the most imbalanced Fire Emblem of them all

[Anouleth]

it may not quite have been due to weapon weights, but FE4 was easily the most imbalanced Fire Emblem of them all

I don't know if I can say that the difference in ability between say, Seliph and Amid is qualitatively far greater than the difference in ability between say, Haar and Lyre. Or Titania and Rolf. Or Sheeda and Roshea. Or Catria and Samto. Or Seth and Amelia. Or Miledy and Wendy.

The real problem with FE4's gameplay was both Pursuit and horses. The lack of pursuit made some characters almost useless...

Except that horses have been in every game. And Pursuit has been in every game. If some characters in FE4 were almost useless due to lack of Pursuit, preventing them from doubling, how is that any different from Barth or Bord being so slow they effectively couldn't double anything either?

Edited June 2, 2013 by Anouleth

[Baldrick]

FE4 says hi

Shut up, FE4! You had a cast of 61 playable characters!

Amid is hardly a terrible unit. I'd say compare Seliph to Hannibal or Asaello. Plus, soloing with any of those characters does not make the game easier like it does with Sigurd/Seliph.

Every game has horses, but none have WTF huge maps, no rescue command, and mounted lord. Slow characters in other games had the potential to sometimes double through Speedwings, gaining a lot of +spd levels, or coming up against the slowest enemies.

[Anouleth]

Shut up, FE4! You had a cast of 61 playable characters!

Amid is hardly a terrible unit. I'd say compare Seliph to Hannibal or Asaello. Plus, soloing with any of those characters does not make the game easier like it does with Sigurd/Seliph.

Aren't you trying to convince me that FE4 was horribly unfair to units that lacked pursuit or mounts? By that logic, wouldn't Amid be terrible?

Right, you're going to tell me that a Seth solo, or a Miledy or Percival solo, or a FE13 Avatar solo are difficult. Or that Marcia can't solo most of her game. Or that efficient strategies in FE10 don't involve Jill and Haar slaughtering 90% of the enemies in every map you can use them in. Or that FE11 isn't "warp Shiida, win game".

Every game has horses, but none have WTF huge maps, no rescue command, and mounted lord. Slow characters in other games had the potential to sometimes double through Speedwings, gaining a lot of +spd levels, or coming up against the slowest enemies.

Except that anyone in FE4 also has the "potential" to double with the Pursuit Ring, potential that's far more relevant than the "potential" of Ward to maybe double some slower enemies if you give him three speedwings. So no, I don't think that Barth is better than Arden because "hey we can give Barth ninety speedwings!"

The rescue command was a bigger benefit to mounted units than foot units. Infantry units that needed the assistance the most were often too heavy to even pick up, and why would you even bother when you could be using your mounted units to ferry lords, dancers, or staff users to the frontline?

[dondon151]

Or that FE11 isn't "warp Shiida, win game".

you still need to warp marth ;-/

[The Void]

it may not quite have been due to weapon weights, but FE4 was easily the most imbalanced Fire Emblem of them all

Radiant Dawn.

[Shadow Mir]

Radiant Dawn.

How so? You said Radiant Dawn was the most unbalanced FE, yet said bugger all to back it up. Geez... I still insist that Radiant Dawn doesn't even come close to Genealogy in terms of being unbalanced.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[shadykid]

Radiant Dawn.

I would dig up arguments from Anouleth himself on how RD is actually fairly balanced, but alas I can't find it

[Baldrick]

Aren't you trying to convince me that FE4 was horribly unfair to units that lacked pursuit or mounts? By that logic, wouldn't Amid be terrible?

He doesn't have any crippling weaknesses, he's just mediocre. There are several characters worse than him. It's telling that the difference between him and the best units in FE4 is bigger than the difference between the best units and the worse units in other games.

Right, you're going to tell me that a Seth solo, or a Miledy or Percival solo, or a FE13 Avatar solo are difficult. Or that Marcia can't solo most of her game. Or that efficient strategies in FE10 don't involve Jill and Haar slaughtering 90% of the enemies in every map you can use them in. Or that FE11 isn't "warp Shiida, win game".

Seth eventually hits the wall, especially when carrying a lord all the time. Miledy and Percival aren't as dominant as Seth, are more affected by the rescue penalty, and are only around half the game. Avatar is close to them, but the first few chapters are apparently quite difficult. Many other units can replicate the combat performance of Marcia, Sheeda, Jill and Haar, albeit shaving less turns.

All these characters have one thing in common. They're stronger as part of a team. With repairable weapons, the 50-kill bonus and the castle mechanics, Sigurd/Seliph are at their strongest when alone.

Except that anyone in FE4 also has the "potential" to double with the Pursuit Ring, potential that's far more relevant than the "potential" of Ward to maybe double some slower enemies if you give him three speedwings. So no, I don't think that Barth is better than Arden because "hey we can give Barth ninety speedwings!"

One Pursuit Ring in the game, and trading it around is impractical.

The rescue command was a bigger benefit to mounted units than foot units. Infantry units that needed the assistance the most were often too heavy to even pick up, and why would you even bother when you could be using your mounted units to ferry lords, dancers, or staff users to the frontline?

Dancers and staff users are a subset of foot units. Sylvia and Aideen will often fall behind and can't be ferried or plucked from the danger zone after they do their thing. It's not the lack of a rescue command alone that hurts unmounted units, it's combined with the maps and the mounted lord. You can add console canto to the list, meaning even if you slow down, it's always better to engage the enemy with your cavalry. Unlike the other games with CC, FE4 doesn't give a niche to foot units (e.g. shoving, forced dismount for some chapters)

[Anouleth]

He doesn't have any crippling weaknesses, he's just mediocre. There are several characters worse than him. It's telling that the difference between him and the best units in FE4 is bigger than the difference between the best units and the worse units in other games.

Um, how? Lyre isn't "mediocre". She's aggressively awful and almost incapable of killing enemies. Sophia is 1-rounded by every enemy in her joining chapter except mages (and I think they come close). If anything, you're proving yourself wrong by trying to defend Amid as "mediocre", when there are games in FE where the worst units are much much worse than mediocre. FE12 Samto?

Seth eventually hits the wall, especially when carrying a lord all the time.

Or... have someone else carry Eirika. Sure, it's not "technically" a solo, but the salient point remains: Seth can single-handedly demolish every combat-related obstacle in the game, and it's actually easier to do it that way. I don't give a flying fuck that he can't seize and Sigurd can.

Miledy and Percival aren't as dominant as Seth, are more affected by the rescue penalty, and are only around half the game.

So are Sigurd and Seliph.

Avatar is close to them, but the first few chapters are apparently quite difficult. Many other units can replicate the combat performance of Marcia, Sheeda, Jill and Haar, albeit shaving less turns.

So what? What Seliph and Sigurd do isn't totally unique and impossible to replicate either, it's just that they're the lord characters, and well, it's just a bit more convenient to dump all your resources into them.

All these characters have one thing in common. They're stronger as part of a team. With repairable weapons, the 50-kill bonus and the castle mechanics, Sigurd/Seliph are at their strongest when alone.

Sigurd and Seliph are NOT at their strongest alone,

One Pursuit Ring in the game, and trading it around is impractical.

Only two speedwings in most FEs, and you need a hell of a lot more than two speedwings for some characters.

Also, the Pursuit Ring CAN be traded around. Even if you think it's impractical, it's still better than speedwings, which can't be traded or reassigned.

Dancers and staff users are a subset of foot units. Sylvia and Aideen will often fall behind and can't be ferried or plucked from the danger zone after they do their thing.

Rescue staves. Leg Ring. Knight Ring. All of these and more are often used to get Leen to catch up with your mounted units.

It's not the lack of a rescue command alone that hurts unmounted units, it's combined with the maps and the mounted lord. You can add console canto to the list, meaning even if you slow down, it's always better to engage the enemy with your cavalry. Unlike the other games with CC, FE4 doesn't give a niche to foot units (e.g. shoving, forced dismount for some chapters)

Shoving is only a valuable role insofar as it can be used to shove mounted units. Hence why Meg is still a shit sandwich, even if she can add "shittier shoves than your other shitty shovebots" to her shitty resume.

[Baldrick]

Um, how? Lyre isn't "mediocre". She's aggressively awful and almost incapable of killing enemies. Sophia is 1-rounded by every enemy in her joining chapter except mages (and I think they come close). If anything, you're proving yourself wrong by trying to defend Amid as "mediocre", when there are games in FE where the worst units are much much worse than mediocre. FE12 Samto?

Amid is less usable than Lyre. His weaknesses require a large amount of unique resources to fix. Her weaknesses require a large amount of non-unique resources to fix.

So what? What Seliph and Sigurd do isn't totally unique and impossible to replicate either, it's just that they're the lord characters, and well, it's just a bit more convenient to dump all your resources into them.

Sigurd and Seliph are NOT at their strongest alone,

Bolded: contradiction. It may look pedantic, but the fact that Sigurd is both Lord and Jeigan is a large part of why he's more dominant than any other unit in FE. If Ardan was the lord of Chalphy, the unit balance would change quite a bit.

Yes, they are. The opportunity cost of giving other units. If Franz takes 20 kills, Seth loses a level. If Fin takes 20 kills, Sigurd loses several levels and up to 20% crit. Sigurd also has a different potential curve to other Jeigan archetypes; he becomes stronger at the end of the game than he is at the beginning. But only if he works alone.

Also, the Pursuit Ring CAN be traded around. Even if you think it's impractical, it's still better than speedwings, which can't be traded or reassigned.

No matter what, only one character lacking the Pursuit skill can double at any given time.

Rescue staves. Leg Ring. Knight Ring. All of these and more are often used to get Leen to catch up with your mounted units.

Less practical than rescue command.

Shoving is only a valuable role insofar as it can be used to shove mounted units. Hence why Meg is still a shit sandwich, even if she can add "shittier shoves than your other shitty shovebots" to her shitty resume.

Mounted units cannot shove. It is a reason to deploy a foot unit instead of another mounted unit.

[Anouleth]

Amid is less usable than Lyre. His weaknesses require a large amount of unique resources to fix. Her weaknesses require a large amount of non-unique resources to fix.

Nothing in the game fixes being a Cat and having to deal with Cat gauge, Speedwings, Energy Drops and Dracoshields (and she needs more than one) are pretty unique and you don't even have them available to the GMs when she's recruited, plus you can't use them while you're waiting for her to join (unlike Amid, who even if you give him the Pursuit and Leg Rings, you can still use those Rings in first gen).

The funny part is that when you put all those resources into Lyre, she still sucks, because she's still a Cat. AKA, she has no range and constantly has to use Olivi Grass. Without them, she can barely even do damage to enemies.

Bolded: contradiction. It may look pedantic, but the fact that Sigurd is both Lord and Jeigan is a large part of why he's more dominant than any other unit in FE. If Ardan was the lord of Chalphy, the unit balance would change quite a bit.

Yeah, but when we say that certain units are "overpowered" or "overpowering", it's usually not because we need them to seize. It's because they have overpowering levels of offense, durability, and mobility as to render every challenge in the game moot. Seizing thrones and gates is not typically described as a challenge, beyond the fact that you have to kill enemies to make it possible. So I don't think that Seth is less overpowered than Sigurd because Seth needs to have Vanessa carry Eirika over the vast mountain of corpses that he leaves behind in his wake.

Yes, they are. The opportunity cost of giving other units. If Franz takes 20 kills, Seth loses a level. If Fin takes 20 kills, Sigurd loses several levels and up to 20% crit.

Oh no? I didn't think Sigurd really needed crit, and he usually hits the level cap pretty early.

Sigurd also has a different potential curve to other Jeigan archetypes; he becomes stronger at the end of the game than he is at the beginning. But only if he works alone.

Uh, how? I don't see how being alone has any impact on how he grows. Either way, he's going to be level 30 with Tyrfing (which will have 0 kills on it), what does it matter whether you used other units as well?

No matter what, only one character lacking the Pursuit skill can double at any given time.

Yes, and in practice, there are many characters in other Fire Emblems that won't double. Doubling is not some universal given that every character in every other Fire Emblem can do with no investment. And certainly, it seems a hell of a lot easier to cajole Dew or Noish into doubling than it does for say, Micaiah or Ena.

You can also reach doubling using Hero weapons. Every physical weapon user in the game can use a Hero weapon after promotion. Hero weapons are much rarer in other Fire Emblems and have limited uses.

Less practical than rescue command.

Not really... the rescue staff is a lot more practical, because it doesn't tank one of your unit's stats, and because only one person needs to use it, while the rescue command requires two units, one to pick up the dancer and one to drop her. It's also less forgiving in terms of positioning: while Canto is nice to have on anyone, it's actually not useful on a rescue staff user, while Canto is practically required for long rescue chains in any Fire Emblem except for Thracia (which uses different rules for transferring rescued and captured units).

Mounted units cannot shove. It is a reason to deploy a foot unit instead of another mounted unit.

Actually, it's only good reason to deploy a foot unit that can shove mounted units. Shoving any other type of unit is usually a waste of time.