Playing "the game"

[Chiki]

There's a difference between stating truth as truth and defending said truth, versus using the truth as a way to say "and fuck the current state of affairs". You come across as doing the former, whether you intend on doing so or not. Rather than be a truth-bot who aims for correctness, work on being someone who can use the truth to change what is "right".

I want to take you at your word, but I can't. Show me that you believe in it.

Well, I can't fund government programs to educate people on hooking up and feminism, nor am I a politician, so there's not much I can do apart from educate people where I can on the truth with scientific studies to back up my position. People have to believe me that the problem exists before they can act on it.

[Saint of Games]

...I am just going to say one thing. The main reason why more males then females in that study were happy for having hooked up with someone is... probably because due to double standards, society norms, and what not. Sex is seen as something that men are supposed to want, while women are supposed to protect from. No matter the reasons or consequences.

I also suggest you read some of these links.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InternalizedCategorism

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AllMenArePerverts

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DoubleStandard

[eclipse]

(grumblegrumbletvtropes) Ahem. . .

Well, I can't fund government programs to educate people on hooking up and feminism, nor am I a politician, so there's not much I can do apart from educate people where I can on the truth with scientific studies to back up my position. People have to believe me that the problem exists before they can act on it.

You start with yourself. Are you the type of person who can talk to people in such a way that they'll listen, whether IRL or on a random Internet forum? Can you frame your arguments in such a way that you don't come across looking like you're supporting the other side? You have your own subset of people who you can influence. If they're put off by you, the change you want isn't going to happen.

This extends to everything, not just women's rights. If you are sick and tired of "the game", then it's up to you to carry yourself in such a way that your voice is made clear, and those that hear it are willing to listen. I am one woman, but I do not support "the game". That, by itself, moves the bar from "all women act like that" to "some percentage, which may or may not be large, act like that".

[Chiki]

That, by itself, moves the bar from "all women act like that" to "some percentage, which may or may not be large, act like that".

I never used the word all, did I? I've been emphasizing for 2 pages now that I used the word most. I do not believe that all men act that way. But I believe that 80% of men or so do treat women like toilet paper.

I simply gave one the conclusion I came across from the studies I posted; if a man who reads this thinks I am insulting them by saying this truth, then that's their problem and not mine. I have said things that could have been taken offensively before and this is not one of them.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Chiki

[Redwall]

Why are hookups men mistreating women? Women can be consenting partners in a noncommittal sexual relationship.

...I am just going to say one thing. The main reason why more males then females in that study were happy for having hooked up with someone is... probably because due to double standards, society norms, and what not. Sex is seen as something that men are supposed to want, while women are supposed to protect from. No matter the reasons or consequences.

Yeah, it's very possible that much of the regret borne out in that study is due to the old "he's a stud, she's a slut" belief, and not due to the males making any deliberate effort to mistreat the females.

[ReformBlade]

I never used the word all, did I? I've been emphasizing for 2 pages now that I used the word most. I do not believe that all men act that way. But I believe that 80% of men or so do treat women like toilet paper.

I simply gave one the conclusion I came across from the studies I posted; if a man who reads this thinks I am insulting them by saying this truth, then that's their problem and not mine. I have said things that could have been taken offensively before and this is not one of them.

To be fair, anything can offend anyone on some weird ass level.

Beyond that, this is perfectly legit to be offended by, since you're saying due to a study that "Most men" are just inherently out to be dominating and abusive almost in a relationship. You look at a study and you say it's true. I'm... confused why a study, a sample study at that, decidedly makes whatever you said 100% true. That's a pretty narrow mindset to have, really, to blindly read a study and parrot it as truth.

A much better way to have handled this would have been to look at the study and form your own opinion about it, not throw it around like it's some big heavy truth hanging above everyone's head. As another person brought up, it's more of a self fulfilling prophecy than a truth. You tell someone they're stupid, ugly, evil, whatever enough, they'll start to think it's actually true.

You can keep shouting "I'm right, you're wrong, you can't handle the truth" for as long as you like, sir, we'll be waiting.

[Steampunk]

I ignored that study simply because it makes no difference if there's an increasing number of virgins. That doesn't contradict my saying "mostpeople."

You also ignored the study saying rates hook-ups and relationships were about the same.

This fits in "most."

No, it doesn't. It does fit "most" in terms of people who participated in the study, but the study is targeting a specific demographic, age group, and geographic location in the world. This percentage is not based on the total human population. It is a percent of a percent of everyone on earth. In what universe is that "most people?"

You also didn't read the "Conclusions" section (a rather important part, in my opinion). For your benefit:

Further, the findings that a majority of both men and women are motivated to engage in hookups, but often desire a more romantic relationship, are consistent with a nuanced perspective that takes into account changing social scripts, new patterns of development, and the cross-cultural and biological centrality of the pair-bond (Fisher, 1992; Gray & Garcia, 2013)

What that is basically saying is, even people who do "hook up" only do so because they feel it is a social norm, or how they're supposed to approach it. In reality, they would rather have a genuine relationship despite this.

But then the burden of proof is on you

Actually, you're the one claiming its most people. You have to prove that, and you'll have to do much better than cherry picking statistics and making false generalizations. I told you: let the evidence tell its tale. Don't fill in the gaps with what you want to be true or what you think is correct.

I believe that 80% of men or so do treat women like toilet paper

And you base this on what? Show me statistics that 80% of men are abusive to or mistreat women.

so there's not much I can do apart from educate people where I can on the truth with scientific studies to back up my position.

Typically, people who are investigating something actually form their opinion of the truth after seeing the facts, not the other way around. If you form your opinion first then only read studies that agree with you, ur doing it wrong. Also, "educate people where I can on the truth" makes it sound like you think you're a great deal smarter than everyone else on this matter. As I've said many times: if you already know everything, you can't learn anything.

I've been emphasizing for 2 pages now that I used the word most

And you haven't presented any evidence that stands up to any scrutiny that supports "most" either.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Sheik

[Shin]

Aeine, you seem to have got a few things wrong. Look at this lovely graph from your source.

It looks like the group that don't care is pretty small. I'd also like to link you to this. Most college students are well aware of the risks involved. You've also taken the satisfaction figures to equal how men and women are treated. 50% of men being satisfied and 26% of women being satisfied only means that women generally aren't as happy with hook-ups. That may be because of sub-par partners or poor treatment, there's no way of telling.

Your "niceness doesn't work" thing seems to be based on personal experience, since you said you've never hooked up because you don't want to treat women like dirt. Your own word means that your statement was invalid.

[BluBlaDe]

I'm laughing at this. I'm an extremely blunt and honest guy. I doubt there's really much boredom among my friends (Though I wouldn't say this is inherently a good or bad thing) I hang with (aside from when I get lethargic). Know why? Because I'm engaging, caring, honest, forthright, I give a shit when other people don't, I actively support people.

You say honesty is boring and playing a game of manipulation is how to win.

In the great words of lord Dracul... For what profit is it to a man if he gains the world and loses his soul? Matthew 16:26, I believe.

But really, if you've gotta front and pretend and lead people on... like someone said before this, you're a damn good actor, since never fully realizing who you are as a person can be damning to people. So many people are looking to find who they are, and I'm willing to bet that people who find out theircalling, what they're supposed to be in life are better off than endlessly wearing a mask for the greater part of their life.

This isn't to say that masquerading as something you're not isn't fun, hell it can actually be healthy for someone from time to time. But to say it's the only way to succeed in life as a whole is... Well I think you're dead wrong, sorry.

As I said before from the moment you are born there are only two people you can possibly trust with your life and or what your real feelings are. They are your parents. You should game to some extent every single other person you know.

The person before told me that acting for your whole life was hard. I don't think it really is. Some people are social butteflies, others are loners.

I know how much society hates loners but I don't really care.

If you show how you really feel to a person they will use it against you later on.

Also honesty isn't the way to go. I can't go around and tell x person what I really think about them and their choices. They'll think I'm crazy.

Wearing a mask is the only choice to go if you want to live a quiet life without problems or getting too much attention.

In the great words of lord Dracul... For what profit is it to a man if he gains the world and loses his soul? Matthew 16:26, I believe.

I totally agree with this one however in this day and age being a ruthless bastard is what is needed to get further in life.

Anyways succeeding in life is relative. For a guy like me succeeding is playing video games and working the bare minimum to live.

For other people it's getting a good career going and marrying.

If you can reach happiness by marrying then good for you, just know that half marriage fails miserably and a good career will only give you money to buy stuff that isn't that useful.

[Rehab]

I'm trying to find my issue of Psychology Today that said (admittedly in a kinda sensationalist way, as is their custom) something like "according to the results of this study (studies?), contrary to popular belief/stereotypes men at large actually do tend to want to derive meaning from romantic relationships beyond physical pleasure."

It was a really stubby article, but I'm hoping it could at least link me to the study. Having a hard time finding it, and my google-fu is too weak to pick it up on initial searches. I mad

[Saint of Games]

As I said before from the moment you are born there are only two people you can possibly trust with your life and or what your real feelings are. They are your parents. You should game to some extent every single other person you know.

Yeah, Sure. I am pretty sure all those kids abused mentally,Physically and verbally by their parents would agree with you.

And I say that as someone who had wonderful parents,

[-Cynthia-]

I never used the word all, did I? I've been emphasizing for 2 pages now that I used the word most. I do not believe that all men act that way. But I believe that 80% of men or so do treat women like toilet paper.

I simply gave one the conclusion I came across from the studies I posted; if a man who reads this thinks I am insulting them by saying this truth, then that's their problem and not mine. I have said things that could have been taken offensively before and this is not one of them.

Your beliefs based on flimsy evidence are not "truth". Somehow you derived men mistreating women from one study where men were more satisfied after hookups than women were, which could be due to a number of factors.

[ReformBlade]

As I said before from the moment you are born there are only two people you can possibly trust with your life and or what your real feelings are. They are your parents. You should game to some extent every single other person you know.

The person before told me that acting for your whole life was hard. I don't think it really is. Some people are social butteflies, others are loners.

I know how much society hates loners but I don't really care.

If you show how you really feel to a person they will use it against you later on.

Also honesty isn't the way to go. I can't go around and tell x person what I really think about them and their choices. They'll think I'm crazy.

Wearing a mask is the only choice to go if you want to live a quiet life without problems or getting too much attention.

I totally agree with this one however in this day and age being a ruthless bastard is what is needed to get further in life.

Anyways succeeding in life is relative. For a guy like me succeeding is playing video games and working the bare minimum to live.

For other people it's getting a good career going and marrying.

If you can reach happiness by marrying then good for you, just know that half marriage fails miserably and a good career will only give you money to buy stuff that isn't that useful.

They can only use shit against you if you let them. Seriously, unless you're really uncomfortable with who you are and what you stand for as a human being, nothing can really be used against you to 'harm you' unless it's something more of a physical nature, like having weak ankles or some other physical deformity/ineptness.

And no, you don't need to be a ruthless bastard to get far in life, not at all. You're believing all the hype, there's good people out there who've done all the hard work to get where they are and didn't necessarily need to hide who they are as a person to anywhere near the extent that you're assuming people 'need' to do.

[Original Alear]

They can only use shit against you if you let them. Seriously, unless you're really uncomfortable with who you are and what you stand for as a human being, nothing can really be used against you to 'harm you' unless it's something more of a physical nature, like having weak ankles or some other physical deformity/ineptness.

Welp! Yet even so, I guess people don't care about me enough to find out what I'm uncomfortable about :D

All the same, regarding this idea of constant manipulation, all I can say is that I doubt it on the basis that BluBlaDe seems to be saying it exists. The reason why is that I figure that to some extent, cooperative living between people is more advantageous than playing games where everyone is going behind each others' backs. I for one can't think of the last time someone manipulated me as an individual actor solely for their own gain and to my loss. And people sometimes like doing favors for others. There's a lot to think of when talking about one's relationships with others, though, so what do I know?

Mind that there is also SF Mafia...

Edited June 13, 2013 by SeverIan

[Sunwoo]

What does SF mafia have to do with anything Severlan

I'm just going to say this and get out of here. I've seen quite a few topics here about guys complaining about women or relationships or whatnot. Here's my best advice for you: women are human, just like you. All women are not a singular entity, who think and want the same thing as every other woman. If you're a "nice guy" just to get a relationship, you're not going to get anywhere. If you talk to and try to get to know women just for a relationship, you're not going to get anywhere. A relationship is not something you "look for", it's something that's supposed to gradually happen and not something you strive for as an initial goal when you try to get to know someone. Don't be manipulative or try to "win" over someone. No one likes to be your "end goal" or a "notch under your belt". Just be your damn self. If an overwhelming number of people don't seem to like you as yourself, then perhaps you need to be a better person.

[Helios]

You can't be yourself if you want to get a girlfriend or get laid period. If you don't play games then you won't get what you want.

Honest people are boring and they don't have any friends. Being honest will only make you predictable or a complete nutcase ( man this person is really ugly right in the face of said person). Being predictable(not using any game) is good if you want gold diggers that are only after your money/statut.

OP you don't have to feel bad about being manipulative but you don't have to go out of your way either to be manipulative.

Relationship are nothing more than games. Get too serious in them and you'll get hurt REAL BAD.

The only people that will EVER love you inconditionally in life are your family(and even then it's not always the case).

Learn to not take relationships too seriously.

Look at children : They take what they wants without giving a single fuck about everything else. Then they grow up and they have to follow rules in order to take what they wants.

Bold: The only thing I agree with in this quotation. You don't have to be manipulative to get a girl, but playing the game can get you some girls if you know what you're doing.

Italics: Kind of agree, but kind of don't. On one hand, if you don't take it too seriously, you won't get hurt. On the other hand, if you half-ass your attempt at a relationship, you'll only get, at best, a half-assed relationship in return. Even relationships that start off as just sex can evolve into meaningful, serious relationships after a while.

Everything else: Strongly disagree.

1) You can put up a front all you want, and even if a girl falls for it, when she learns that it's just a front, chances are she'll lose attraction for you and game over. Relationships based on lies don't last very long.

2) Honesty isn't boring, and it's necessary for healthy relationships. Like I said before, you won't have a nice relationship for long if you build it up on lies. You just can't be stupid about what you say, but that doesn't really have to do with honesty.

3) Only your family loves you is an awfully pessimistic way to look at things. If you're in a solid relationship for some, doesn't the bf/gf soon enough start to feel like family?

They can only use shit against you if you let them. Seriously, unless you're really uncomfortable with who you are and what you stand for as a human being, nothing can really be used against you to 'harm you' unless it's something more of a physical nature, like having weak ankles or some other physical deformity/ineptness.

And no, you don't need to be a ruthless bastard to get far in life, not at all. You're believing all the hype, there's good people out there who've done all the hard work to get where they are and didn't necessarily need to hide who they are as a person to anywhere near the extent that you're assuming people 'need' to do.

Pretty much agree with this. Words only affect you if you let them (which most people do allow, but that's a different story). You don't need to be ruthless to get what you want in life, you just need to be patient, stay determined and positive, never give in, and work hard at your goal. No matter how bleak the situation is, you have a high chance of succeeding if you stick to that.

I'm just going to say this and get out of here. I've seen quite a few topics here about guys complaining about women or relationships or whatnot. Here's my best advice for you: women are human, just like you. All women are not a singular entity, who think and want the same thing as every other woman. If you're a "nice guy" just to get a relationship, you're not going to get anywhere. If you talk to and try to get to know women just for a relationship, you're not going to get anywhere. A relationship is not something you "look for", it's something that's supposed to gradually happen and not something you strive for as an initial goal when you try to get to know someone. Don't be manipulative or try to "win" over someone. No one likes to be your "end goal" or a "notch under your belt". Just be your damn self. If an overwhelming number of people don't seem to like you as yourself, then perhaps you need to be a better person.

I agree with some of this, and I think you'll hear something similar to this from a lot of girls. Women are just as human as you are, which might be hard to believe at times, but it's true. Don't put the pussy on a pedestal. You can be a nice guy and get in a relationship, but if you're just a nice guy to get in a relationship, you won't go anywhere. Your true intentions come to light the more you spend time with a girl like that.

I disagree with the last couple sentences just because it's more than being "your self". It's about portraying your "best self" and staying interesting to the girl. What I mean is, you're probably a nice guy and a great person, but you gotta show that to the girl. Show her your positives. Show her WHY she should be attracted to you. Girls are human, they're not supposed to know that you're actually a great and interesting guy just by looking at you. Make sure you do it gradually as well, as in, don't just attack head on and throw out all your weapons early. A personal example of this would be (yeah yeah personal examples don't work blah blah blah) with me, I used to compliment girls a lot early on in the relationship. So girls would think "oh he's such a sweet guy" or "oh he's so nice", but soon enough, my compliments had little to no effect. They were just empty words to the girls. So don't overdo the "niceness", or whatever your strengths may be!

I think it's funny that Chiki is debating whatever with two girls about this. I don't think you'll ever get your point through to people who you're possibly offending haha.

In the end, my opinion is that whatever your intention is, that's what you're gonna end up getting. Playing "the game" can work if you know what you're doing, but so can just being yourself and having a girl fall for you for who you are. My source? I've been "successful" doing both, but for me, my relationships based on honesty and being myself have lasted much longer than ones I've done by "playing the game". But hey, personal experience doesn't matter right? In a sense, that's true, since chances are other guys can't really do the same things I do to get girls to fall for me. But in the past, my advice (for both sexes) has helped a lot of people get into solid relationships. So, take things as you will everyone. Just my two cents.

[RPG]

Thanks for all the input guys and gals ^__^

For a long time I did what I thought the "right" thing was, just for the sake of doing the right thing. Which isn't necessarily bad, but I was being what some of you mentioned--being the nice guy for the sake of getting the girl. Plus, I did it only because it was what I was taught to do, never bothering to think for myself on such matters, and not trying to find my own conclusions. Life is a lot more complicated than doing nice things and getting rewarded, something I wish I realized sooner.

After some time in college on the party scene, I've realized that these relationship games aren't really for me, at least not if I'm looking for anything beyond a hookup. There's value in games, sure, and if people enjoy them then more power to them. I like flirting at parties and such, but I think I'll let the courting game take up less of my life outside of that. Wanting things to happen seems to be a good way of screwing everyone over. And whether I'm flirting or not, I'd much rather be myself. For my own sake, and so people know what they're getting into, haha.

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

i can't believe i read this thread.

a lot of people seem to have the "game" confused for confidence. you get girls by portraying confidence, being chill, and treating girls like they're any other friend. when you put a girl on a pedestal that's when you failed.

[mewyeon]

That actually looks much better than my original. You wouldn't be considering a job as a professional post decrapifier? Seriously, sometimes I remind myself of Foghorn Leghorn: ramblin', ah say ramblin' about thangs. THANGS that is.

those thangs ;) and LOL no i haven't, but that's sweet of you for suggesting

And whether I'm flirting or not, I'd much rather be myself. For my own sake, and so people know what they're getting into, haha.

So so true!

[MacLovin]

They can only use shit against you if you let them. Seriously, unless you're really uncomfortable with who you are and what you stand for as a human being, nothing can really be used against you to 'harm you' unless it's something more of a physical nature, like having weak ankles or some other physical deformity/ineptness.

And no, you don't need to be a ruthless bastard to get far in life, not at all. You're believing all the hype, there's good people out there who've done all the hard work to get where they are and didn't necessarily need to hide who they are as a person to anywhere near the extent that you're assuming people 'need' to do.

I don't get these schmucks that whine about how they can't seem to a girl interested in them.

i can't believe i read this thread.

a lot of people seem to have the "game" confused for confidence. you get girls by portraying confidence, being chill, and treating girls like they're any other friend. when you put a girl on a pedestal that's when you failed.

You're my new hero.

[ReformBlade]

I don't get these schmucks that whine about how they can't seem to a girl interested in them.

B-But I can't ;n;

It's impossible.

No one could be interested in /me/. After all, who would love a guy like me, sitting on a stable job and moved out and shit like that? NO ONE, THAT'S WHO!

[Life]

For fucks sake, a lot of people who open their mouths here have no fucking clue pabout what they're saying.

First of all, the guy who said that people confuse confidence with game is almost correct but also wrong. Confidence is game but game is not confidence. Game is also understanding that a ton of women also go out looking for hook-ups and also have game. No fish is ever easy to catch but she either requires money or effort.

Example: I went out last night with a friend and slightly embaressed a girl at the bar. But because I have game, I was able to erase my asshole status by apologizing, having a general conversation about everything and anything and buying her a beer. I'm not saying that this is how to do it (I also learned Game at a very late age but learned it properly) but the fact remains that she was also looking for a hook-up too.

Being an asshole is not game. Being an asshole is being an asshole. Being a nice guy is not game. Being a nice guy is being a sucker. But self-confidence? That defines game.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Tricky Dick

[ReformBlade]

For fucks sake, a lot of people who open their mouths here have no fucking clue pabout what they're saying.

Gotta love that mentality. "Fuck you you're wrong I'm right 'pabout' all of this"

[Life]

Gotta love that mentality. "Fuck you you're wrong I'm right 'pabout' all of this"

The difference is that I have experience that ranges to as close as last night.

There are two types of people with game. The ones that start early and then believe that they have game for the rest of their lives (they don't) and those that start late but learn correctly. I'm the latter.

[Rehab]

The things you referred to as "having game," I just think of in different terms- "knowing what signals you're sending," "considering what the other person wants (and where that intersects with what I want)," "having social awareness," "not dropping the spaghetti/knowing how to avoid either reflecting poorly on yourself or making other people feel uncomfortable when you drop the spaghetti," etc.

Referring to the whole thing as game reminds me too much of this psychology rag article I read that was about the thoughts and development of a literal sociopath, who saw every person they met as a means to an end or prey to be hunted (or played with).