SSB4: SSB for Wii U and 3DS, maybe the NX and also your toaster!

[Jotari]

So us in Eastern Washington after having a tourney with custom moves are currently debating their viability. Quite the interesting topic, no one has started yelling yet, Jamntoast and I are firmly on the viable and won't be janky or gimmicky after people understand them. A good chunk seem to agree with that, others are frustrated with the fact they didn't know what most of the moves did and that it changes the meta too much, however I've convinced some that if we state the custom set before a match it could be better.

Some however see them as a total not fun alternative to vanilla (this camp is spearheaded by Robotnik a Yoshi/Wario Player)

I think this piece of satire is the best counter point to saying custom moves changes the meta too much.

http://smashboards.com/threads/a-modest-proposal-newcomer-characters-should-not-be-allowed-at-evo.392853/

Edited March 23, 2015 by Jotari

[Anacybele]

how is it possible for lucina to be overrated

it's literally impossible to move her down further on the tier list

also elincia is barely in smash

she's what, a sticker? trophy?

Who said I was talking about any tier lists? I mean she's overrated as a character, not as a fighter.

Elincia is a trophy. I don't see how it matters as long as the character appears in Smash in some way.

[Ein]

I think this piece of satire is the best counter point to saying custom moves changes the meta too much.

http://smashboards.com/threads/a-modest-proposal-newcomer-characters-should-not-be-allowed-at-evo.392853/

Holy shit.

Diddy Kong is a dick.

[euklyd]

Holy shit.

Diddy Kong is a dick.

not as much of a dick as the nazi mods

they locked his thread ;~;

edit:

So us in Eastern Washington after having a tourney with custom moves are currently debating their viability. Quite the interesting topic, no one has started yelling yet, Jamntoast and I are firmly on the viable and won't be janky or gimmicky after people understand them. A good chunk seem to agree with that, others are frustrated with the fact they didn't know what most of the moves did and that it changes the meta too much, however I've convinced some that if we state the custom set before a match it could be better.

Some however see them as a total not fun alternative to vanilla (this camp is spearheaded by Robotnik a Yoshi/Wario Player)

there's been hella discussions elsewhere too

it'll be interesting

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2zwj67/alright_lets_have_a_serious_discussion_on_custom/

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/301f76/my_opinion_on_custom_moves_after_ktar_xii/

http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions.367669/page-512#post-18807087

[spoiler=and m2k]

Edited March 23, 2015 by Euklyd

[ClevelandSteve]

Custom moves really should be allowed. I mean, once everyone finds out the best combination of customs for each character, everyone at tournaments will probably just use that set of moves anyway. It'll scramble the tier lists quite a bit, but the competitive scene will adapt. The only reason they weren't allowed at launch was that competitive Smash players aren't too fond of change.

Also, I made my own version of that meme Ana made. I'm sure you'll never be able to tell that I put in about five minutes of effort and used MS Paint

Link to image

[Knife]

Is Pikas Heavy Skull Bash really that broken? I've been hearing that it kills around 40% half charged.

[kingddd]

Custom moves really should be allowed. I mean, once everyone finds out the best combination of customs for each character, everyone at tournaments will probably just use that set of moves anyway. It'll scramble the tier lists quite a bit, but the competitive scene will adapt. The only reason they weren't allowed at launch was that competitive Smash players aren't too fond of change.

Also, I made my own version of that meme Ana made. I'm sure you'll never be able to tell that I put in about five minutes of effort and used MS Paint

Link to image

in these tournaments is everything already unlocked? Because that would definitely make custom moves more convenient for tournaments.

[Knife]

Oh wait here's an example.

http://gfycat.com/DefensivePhonyCaterpillar

This does not bode well for you pro-custom folks.

Also it does 28% wtf

Edited March 24, 2015 by Knife

[Anacybele]

Well, I guess if there's one or two broken custom moves, they should be banned.

[euklyd]

Oh wait here's an example.

http://gfycat.com/DefensivePhonyCaterpillar

This does not bode well for you pro-custom folks.

Also it does 28% wtf

can we ban dedede's fsmash?

you get a read with that and it kills hella early too

hell, bowser's fsmash has armor

/s

by all accounts I've read, the diddy was throwing out unsafe aerials predictably and for no real purpose in many cases and got punished for it

several times

(like there he threw out a random uair while pika charged the skull bash)

also it's cool how people complain about SSB4 being "too slow, people live forever" and then complain about moves that kill early

I mean I'm not exactly innocent of this either but still

[Knife]

Dedede and Bowser having moves like that make sense. Pikachu is already top tier with his damage building capability, he doesn't need a kill move like that. Not to mention those smashes come out on frame 25-30 while a half charged Skull Bash is <15 startup. Its also much safer than those smashes given the missile put him offstage at which point he can use his recovery + double jump to make it back easily.

I do want the game to be faster, but not like this.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Knife

[Florete]

I don't think anything should ever be banned for being "overpowered" unless it's to a massive extent. Pikachu's Skull Bash? Diddy Kong? Adapt. If you start banning, where do you stop? Something else will just take their place.

I do, however, have to agree with M2K about Villager's customs, not because they're overpowered, but because of the nature of them causing timeouts. That doesn't seem at all healthy for a growing competitive scene, being neither fun to watch nor play against. I'm not a competitive player so my opinion isn't the most educated, but it seems possible that banning the combination of trip seed + exploding balloons (aka can't be used together, but either without the other is fine) ought to be a start.

[Ein]

not as much of a dick as the nazi mods

they locked his thread ;~;

They work for Diddy Kong.

[Ema Skye]

Agreeing with Red Fox. If any custom should be banned, it's Timber Counter. The stalling potential is pretty much unparalleled and, even though I love using it because I'm a tool, it feels very uncompetitive (plant the tree, spam Lloids and slingshots until you need to refresh tree, use boom balloons for more stalling, refresh tree, rinse repeat)

[Ein]

holy crap Timber Counter + Explosive Balloons is stupid. Yeah those may have to be looked at to prevent time out shenanigans.

Customs should be allowed in tourneys anyway regardless of what lazy people think just because they don't want to learn match ups more. Besides they make Palutena viable and I'm all for that.

[euklyd]

Dedede and Bowser having moves like that make sense. Pikachu is already top tier with his damage building capability, he doesn't need a kill move like that. Not to mention those smashes come out on frame 25-30 while a half charged Skull Bash is <15 startup. Its also much safer than those smashes given the missile put him offstage at which point he can use his recovery + double jump to make it back easily.

I do want the game to be faster, but not like this.

idk

I see what you're saying and my facetious comparisons were dumb, but like

we've barely seen how anyone deals with customs yet

this isn't really any different (yet) than people talking about how Bowser was TOP TIER or how Little Mac was completely broken

for the record tho, ESAM does say that customs are Bad™

and his opinion counts for at least a bit, given that he was the pikachu

Pika is top tier WITHOUT customs. He's probably the single best with them

EDIT: it occurs to me that like, people never ever talk about Pika when discussing what effects customs have on top tiers

everyone always forgets about Pikachu lol

as far as banning things go unless something is completely degenerate or awful (like if 1-inch punch was easy to setup and centralizing and shit) imo the reason to ban things should lean towards things like timber counter that encourage the game to be played in uncompetitive / unfun ways

so basically agreeing with RFoF / Doofina

and even then, everything should be taken with a grain of salt (see also: M2K calling for DHD to be banned a month or two in)

sidenote: It might be better if we merged this discussion into Knife's Customs / Competitive thread (or just forked it into a new thread)?

EDIT2: Pika is also top-tier because he reks that completely overpowered villager strat :V

Edited March 24, 2015 by Euklyd

[Knife]

I guess. But people keep saying customs help low tier while not helping top tiers that much. This is untrue. Pika, Shiek, Rosalina, Mario get some very good customs and they're already high tier. Diddy Kong gets nothing though lol.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Knife

[Comet]

i don't know what to think about customs. they're fun and allow more variation, but then stuff like that happens. certain combinations can be banned, but then we get to the point where we start thinking about what should or shouldn't be banned. i personally like vanilla the most since there isn't any clunky or straight out weird glitches and mechanics.

pika is an underused character in general outside of 64. he's a really weird character to pick up and has traditionally had a decent learning curve so it's not surprising.

a lot of characters with good attacks to hit villager off the ledge can work around him, but let's be honest; nobody likes playing against villager or watching him with that setup. everyone who plays smash 4 should switch to maining falcon or ganon

[euklyd]

I guess. But people keep saying customs help low tier while not helping top tiers that much. This is untrue. Pika, Shiek, Rosalina, Mario get some very good customs and they're already high tier. Diddy Kong gets nothing though lol.

Sheik's customs aren't really gamechangers. Rosa's are but the current consensus seems to be that she's still worse than Sheik / Diddy.

I mean they're definitely good but

It's useful to keep in mind that at the Villager Stall (KTAR XII) tourney there were plenty of Strong Players using customs, and getting good mileage from them:

- Dabuz's Rosaluma (2^nd, with Olimar secondary)

- Dapuffster's Mii Brawler (3^rd)

- 6WX's Sonic (4th also wtf custom sonic)

- ADHD's Villager (5^th, Stallager - switched to standard Diddy when things got tough)

Also in attendence are False, Nairo and Salem, which are all very strong players.

1^st place was Jtails' standard Diddy Kong. That alone seems like a very good argument for customs.

I think we all understand why it's "necessary" to be exploring customs right now, and I still think it's very premature to discuss banning any move, let alone all of them.

EDIT: you can see ADHD's post on smashboards about the matter here

Edited March 24, 2015 by Euklyd

[Jedi]

You ban one custom you ban them all. No questions.

Those advocating banning villagers customs do not realize they have weaknesses, the counter sapling had a very small hit box, I was able to grab villager right next to his own sapling.

His balloons can be detonated by any hit box this includes stuff like Ikes furious eruption.

I fought against Jamntoasts villager and didn't feel hopelessly outmatched, I shouldn't have switched from sonic game two but still, those advocating the banning of any customs this early are either.

A. afraid of having to adapt.

B. Afraid of the meta game being different.

C. Unsure of what they are talking about.

D. Want a less viable cast.

[Florete]

You ban one custom you ban them all. No questions.

This is not a logical result.

If people find a good way to counter Villager's counter sapling + exploding balloons such that the games don't constantly go to time, I'm all for it. And I can agree that it shouldn't be banned immediately, but it's definitely something to strongly consider.

[Jedi]

This is not a logical result.

If people find a good way to counter Villager's counter sapling + exploding balloons such that the games don't constantly go to time, I'm all for it. And I can agree that it shouldn't be banned immediately, but it's definitely something to strongly consider.

I just feel if any customs get banned, it'll give the anti-customs argument so much ground that all of them will be shot down.

Sorry I may have come off a bit passionate, I've been having to argue with various different people about my thoughts on customs lately and it carries over.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Jedi

[Comet]

@jedi

a lot of characters with good attacks to hit villager off the ledge can work around him, but let's be honest; nobody likes playing against villager or watching him with that setup.

pretty much the main reason. it's just the unwritten rule that nobody likes it.

[Jedi]

@jedi

pretty much the main reason. it's just the unwritten rule that nobody likes it.

But is it fair to remove those options from him while allowing everyone elses?

[Comet]

i don't really care about if it's fair or not. does anybody really want to deal with or watch a stalling villager? i just think it would be better for the community if it were gone if it gets too popular.

Edited March 24, 2015 by ID Thanatos