SSB4: SSB for Wii U and 3DS, maybe the NX and also your toaster!

[Jedi]

It's cool how Cloud got into Smash Bros before PlayStation All Stars, despite definitely being more of a PS character.

Square-Enix refused to let them use any of their properties for that game, this is even more of a slap in their face lol.

[Sir Cummington]

Only 10%of that roster has character from Japan lol. Clouds moveset as a whole is mostly his limit breaks.(And some dissidia moves)

Note: Cloud actually dashes in mid air for his running animation. Referring to dissidia maybe?

FSmash: Sonic Break(Wish it was 4x Attack)

DSmash: Double Cut?

All air tilts: Maybe forms of Rising and Aerial Fang

B Netural: Cross Slash

B Side Blade Beam

B Down: Limit Break

B Down (Charged): Finishing Touch

B Up: Braver

They could have gave him the Ryu treatment with his final smash. Meteorain for distances and Omnislash for up close.

[Jedi]

Yeah his Dashes and Jumps are remarkably Dissidia.

[Great Geargia Gateway]

Just faced a really good Sheik player. Should have seen me, lol I was spewin. Seriously saying "Sheik is broken." and stuff. I mean, it wasn't so bad, I could get 1 stock off and Sheik just couldn't get the kill when I'm 170%,

but I think maybe those needles could be a bit broken. They have so much range, quick, almost invisible, and frame trapping projectile for a fighter I think should be more... I dunno... more up in your face, which she is, but it's so campy. Just nerf it. It forces you to no options and you have jump over an do an empty landing or you'll get punished or shield blocked.

It's not broken, it's just irritating and nonpunishable.

[Knife]

Finally, a new topic.

Needles are really broken in this game, but that's not new. They were even more broken at release. That being said, people do overrate their safety/power, if you fastfall and shield (you have to beat their reaction time) the needles at proximity, you can punish them. The uncharged needle is like 46 frames of endlag, charged variants have even more than that. If you play a character with bad jumps, you may need to rely on dash shield (not really reliable as needles beat reaction time) or just eat the needles as you approach (they don't really do much damage, though they have a lot of psychological presence with the hitstun). Learn the max range of the needle and jump in from that point assuming the Sheik is sitting at the ledge for you to approach. Some characters have projectiles that both outrange/transcend needles, but very rare. Examples include all charge shots (ala Lucario, Samus, WFT, Mewtwo, but the problem is you need to be able to charge them safely), Greninja shurikens (outrange), most produced items will absorb needles and hit Sheik (TL/Link bombs, ROB Gyro, etc.).

Damn, I could write more on this. Sheik's needles lol

[Jedi]

Mario can semi power through Sheiks needles if his player has the reaction time to cape. They aren't quite as dumb as people state, but its still a significant part of why Sheik dominates the neutral.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Jedi

[euklyd]

So GimR posted a video where he estimates frame data for Cloud looking frame-by-frame.

The tl;dw is

- massive disjoint all around

- his tilts look good but a bit much cooldown

- fsmash and usmash are slow af but dsmash is like frame 7

- his aerials are a mix of suuuper slow with p damn fast (frame ~11 dair spike mmmm), but those we saw (nair and fair) have hella landing lag

--- fair is a spike like DK's

- upb looks super fast and like a great OoS option among other things

- downb maybe charges limit gauge which looks like it changes only specials

- nothing about grab or throws

etc

it looks to me like he'll play a lot like Ike, but whether his nair and fair combo well is gonna be p important

keep in mind that these are all estimates with a fair amount of assumptions

I can't wait to see you guys talking with some sense of certainty about how broken or awful ike is

Edited November 16, 2015 by Euklyd

[Jedi]

Euk and I discussed some of this. If anyone wants to see a segment of the log.

[1:40:04 AM] Euklyd: and his smashes are all hella slow

[1:40:07 AM] Euklyd: well

[1:40:10 AM] Euklyd: dsmash is fast iirc?

[1:40:13 AM] Jedi: dsmash is frame 7

[1:40:28 AM] Euklyd: yeah that's good

[1:40:38 AM] Jedi: nair and fair look awkward if you mis

[1:40:40 AM] Jedi: miss*

[1:40:45 AM] Jedi: but uair and dair look great

[1:40:50 AM] Euklyd: tilts are ok but bad in neutral if their cooldown is as it is

[1:41:57 AM] Euklyd: dair is good but not very versatile

[1:42:10 AM | Edited 1:42:22 AM] Euklyd: if it really is 11 frames it'll be one of the fastest smashes in the game

[1:42:47 AM] Euklyd: back to dsmash

[1:42:51 AM] Euklyd: killing behind him

[1:42:52 AM] Euklyd: is nice

[1:43:08 AM] Euklyd: o rite

[1:43:12 AM] Jedi: bair is also frame 9?

[1:43:14 AM] Euklyd: nair has shit landing lag

[1:43:20 AM] Jedi: yeah

[1:43:25 AM] Jedi: not looking forward to that

[1:43:27 AM] Euklyd: I hope that's not shared with his other aerials

[1:43:32 AM] Euklyd: but like

[1:43:41 AM] Euklyd: on many chars nair has the least landing lag

[1:43:42 AM] Euklyd: :|

[1:43:55 AM] Euklyd: not looking forward to a frame 15 fair

[1:44:15 AM] Euklyd: even if it does spike

[1:44:32 AM] Euklyd: 15 frames of landing lag

[1:44:38 AM] Jedi: i'm just glad his attacks aren't all in the 10's of frames

[1:44:39 AM] Jedi: tbh

[1:44:48 AM] Jedi: in terms of startup

[1:44:49 AM] Euklyd: bair being 9 frames of startup is

[1:44:50 AM] Euklyd: lame

[1:44:56 AM] Jedi: lame?

[1:45:13 AM] Euklyd: yeah

[1:46:01 AM] Euklyd: compare to Ike's 7 frames

[1:46:12 AM] Euklyd: honestly like

[1:46:13 AM] Jedi: 9 is still really fast for his range

[1:46:15 AM] Euklyd: in terms of aerials

[1:46:20 AM] Jedi: Ike beats him

[1:46:22 AM] Euklyd: he's looking like launch ike

[1:46:38 AM] Euklyd: and if his normals have that much cooldown he has very few options

[1:46:40 AM] Jedi: except with a much better uair

[1:46:44 AM] Jedi: that doesn't suck

[1:46:48 AM] Euklyd: uair is very nice but won't combo

[1:47:20 AM] Euklyd: if sideb is safe then it could be nice

[1:47:31 AM] Euklyd: upb is nice

[1:48:10 AM] Jedi: so are you basically trying to say I shouldn't try to main him

[1:48:20 AM] Euklyd: no

[1:48:30 AM] Euklyd: I'm saying that he looks kinda meh from what we've seen so far

[1:48:36 AM] Euklyd: if he has killer throw combos

[1:48:41 AM] Euklyd: or if limit break is super broken

[1:48:43 AM] Jedi: if Ike's better in compeitive I'd likely stay Ike in tourneys

[1:48:47 AM] Euklyd: then it could be enough to make up for it

[1:48:56 AM] Euklyd: actually

[1:49:04 AM] Euklyd: upb being an oos option like that is

[1:49:05 AM] Euklyd: nice

[1:49:25 AM] Jedi: kinda like Brawl Marth

[1:49:30 AM] Jedi: in that sense

[1:49:47 AM] Euklyd: if his aerials really are that poor then like

[1:49:49 AM] Euklyd: ;/

[1:50:14 AM] Jedi: uair, bair and dair look decent enough

[1:50:18 AM] Jedi: shame about fair and nair

[1:50:42 AM] Jedi: he might have approch issues

[1:51:29 AM] Euklyd: actually

[1:51:36 AM] Euklyd: his landing lag isn't too different from ike

[1:51:46 AM] Jedi: its quite a bit worse isn't it?

[1:51:49 AM] Euklyd: if his nair launch angle is as bad as gimr thinks that'll suck

[1:51:49 AM] Euklyd: no

[1:52:13 AM] Jedi: well undenyable that Ike has a much superior aerial game

[1:52:15 AM] Euklyd: landing lag for

nair = 14

fair = 18

bair = 19

uair = 15

dair = 23

[1:52:19 AM] Euklyd: well

[1:52:31 AM] Euklyd: I would say that if Cloud has any sort of followups

[1:52:36 AM] Euklyd: it could be debatable

[1:52:39 AM] Jedi: I'm not sure if he will

[1:52:43 AM] Euklyd: like if you can combo sourspot fair into things

[1:52:46 AM] Euklyd: or nair into things

[1:52:50 AM] Euklyd: or bair into things

[1:52:57 AM] Jedi: from what it looks like

[1:52:58 AM] Euklyd: or combo into like

[1:53:01 AM] Jedi: Ike's nair is super better

[1:53:06 AM] Euklyd: sweetspot fair off of a throw

[1:53:25 AM] Euklyd: his uair looks

[1:53:26 AM] Euklyd: nice

[1:53:30 AM] Euklyd: actually

[1:54:11 AM] Euklyd: gimr is dumb on nair

[1:54:18 AM] Euklyd: he's hitting with the latest hit of nair

[1:54:26 AM] Euklyd: p sure ike's hits behind him as well

[1:54:30 AM] Euklyd: in that spot

[1:54:39 AM] Jedi: yeah but it doesn't lag that bad or send people as far

[1:54:43 AM] Jedi: even in the last spot

[1:54:53 AM] Euklyd: lag is 2 frames difference

[1:55:03 AM] Euklyd: we don't know what % mega was at

[1:57:39 AM] Jedi: Euk you know what surprises me

[1:57:47 AM] Jedi: that his dash attack isn't his regular FF7 attack

[1:58:01 AM] Jedi: considering in ff7 he dashes at the enemy

[1:58:20 AM] Jedi: I guess thats his ftilt?

[1:59:09 AM] Euklyd: ok aerial stuff

[1:59:13 AM] Euklyd: format is

[1:59:33 AM] Euklyd: aerial - hitbox description [startup] / [duration] / [landing lag] / [knockback angle]

[1:59:38 AM] Euklyd: nair - swing all round like ike ?? / 7 / 16 / variable kb angle

[1:59:42 AM] Euklyd: fair - slash in front of him, like ike, hella disjoint 15 / ?? / 15 / spikes at end like dong's

[1:59:45 AM] Euklyd: bair - literally ike's 9 / ?? / ?? / probably sakurai angle

[1:59:49 AM] Euklyd: uair - a lot like ike's, but mostly in front of him 6 / 19 / ??

[1:59:50 AM] Euklyd: dair - like link's 11 / 26 / ?? / initial spike hitbox

[1:59:58 AM] Euklyd: ike has like

[2:01:08 AM] Euklyd: nair - 12 / 16 / 14

fair - 12 / 4 / 18

bair - 7 / 3 / 19

uair - 13 / 17 / 15

dair - 16 / 2 / 23

[2:01:35 AM] Jedi: you know what would be sweet

[2:01:43 AM] Jedi: if uthrow goes right into uair

[2:01:52 AM] Euklyd: yes

[2:02:00 AM] Euklyd: given how fast uair is

[2:02:07 AM] Euklyd: it might be straight-up guaranteed

[2:02:30 AM] Euklyd: if not it's possibly a 50-50 with upb

[2:02:45 AM] Euklyd: upb catches jumps, uair lasts longer than an airdodge

[2:02:55 AM] Jedi: also I'm not sure how I feel about the Megaman style slide

[2:02:58 AM] Euklyd: wait no

[2:03:06 AM] Euklyd: it doesn't last longer than an airdodge

[2:03:26 AM] Euklyd: airdodges are 26 frames of intangibility

[2:03:33 AM] Jedi: a slide move is very weird for a swordie to have

[2:03:36 AM] Jedi: wouldn't you say

[2:03:40 AM] Euklyd: yeah

[2:03:44 AM] Euklyd: but it could be interesting

[2:03:50 AM] Euklyd: no reason it couldn't work

[2:03:54 AM] Jedi: wait

[2:03:57 AM] Jedi: could I slide under needles

[2:04:06 AM] Euklyd: I wanna say not

[2:04:10 AM] Jedi: haha yeah

[2:04:14 AM] Euklyd: because sheik kinda crouches when she throws

[2:04:25 AM] Jedi: it'd catch Clouds hair

[2:04:27 AM] Euklyd: it depends on how low to the ground cloud gets

[2:04:33 AM] Jedi: which we all know

[2:04:36 AM] Jedi: is his worst hitbox

[2:04:40 AM] Jedi: :P

[2:04:44 AM] Euklyd: liiike he gets preeeeetty low

[2:04:54 AM] Jedi: he may go lower than Mega

[2:04:57 AM] Jedi: because he like

[2:05:00 AM] Jedi: thins out completely

[2:05:06 AM] Jedi: Mega is half crouching

[2:05:33 AM] Jedi: low % dtilt to uair

[2:05:35 AM] Jedi: may be a thing

[2:05:49 AM] Euklyd: I doubt it

[2:05:52 AM] Jedi: probably

[2:05:55 AM] Euklyd: I'd imagine it has a lot of cooldown

[2:05:55 AM] Jedi: I can dream though

[2:06:03 AM] Jedi: what if it has like

[2:06:05 AM] Jedi: no lag

[2:06:06 AM] Jedi: lol

[2:06:09 AM] Euklyd: I think everything depends on how well nair combos into things

[2:06:14 AM] Euklyd: if you can get shit like

[2:06:26 AM] Euklyd: nair -> fair spike

[2:06:27 AM] Jedi: fthrow -> fair?

[2:06:31 AM] Euklyd: then that's huge

[2:06:43 AM] Euklyd: or nair -> dair

[2:06:50 AM] Euklyd: or nair -> uair is also nice

[2:06:52 AM] Jedi: Euk I was thinking maybe one of his throws could true combo with blade beam

[2:06:57 AM] Jedi: maybe

[2:07:07 AM] Euklyd: bb has 20 frames of startup

[2:07:18 AM] Jedi: throw mix up?

[2:07:44 AM] Euklyd: maaaaaybe

[2:08:02 AM] Jedi: my friend and I were joking

[2:08:06 AM] Euklyd: what even other aerial combos could he go for

[2:08:06 AM] Jedi: if Sephiroth came with him

[2:08:09 AM] Euklyd: maaaaaybe fair stuff?

[2:08:10 AM] Jedi: we'd have Melee marth back

[2:08:47 AM] Jedi: did we even see his utilt

[2:08:51 AM] Jedi: I don't think we did

[2:09:00 AM] Jedi: I hope it can launch into uair

[2:09:12 AM] Euklyd: we did see it

[2:09:19 AM] Jedi: we saw his usmash

[2:09:20 AM] Euklyd: it had shit cooldown (maaaybe)

[2:09:23 AM] Jedi: Oh

[2:09:24 AM] Jedi: wait

[2:09:25 AM] Euklyd: depends on iasa frames

[2:09:27 AM] Jedi: vs Sonic

[2:09:37 AM] Euklyd: we saw all his normals

[2:09:42 AM] Jedi: it looked like he dodges right after his utilt

[2:09:43 AM] Euklyd: didn't see grab or throws

[2:09:47 AM] Jedi: we saw one throw

[2:09:48 AM] Euklyd: yeah he did

[2:09:59 AM] Jedi: but not the launch distance

[2:10:00 AM] Jedi: or anything

[2:10:06 AM] Euklyd: yea

[2:10:52 AM] Euklyd: hm

[2:10:53 AM] Euklyd: I don't see fthrow comboing into much

[2:11:02 AM] Euklyd: nor bthrow

[2:11:13 AM] Euklyd: uthrow and dthrow, then

[2:11:18 AM] Euklyd: well

[2:11:24 AM] Euklyd: fthrow could be like sonic's or s/t

[2:11:27 AM] Jedi: fthrow could be weird

[2:11:37 AM] Euklyd: yea

[2:11:49 AM] Euklyd: man it'd be so hype if like

[2:11:55 AM] Euklyd: he had a throw that could combo into suicide upb

[2:12:05 AM] Jedi: lol

[2:12:20 AM] Jedi: I think it would be cool

[2:12:21 AM] Jedi: if he coukd

[2:12:26 AM] Jedi: fthrow into a fair

[2:12:26 AM] Euklyd: upb looks like it could be sooooo good

[2:12:27 AM] Euklyd: like

[2:12:36 AM] Euklyd: aether without the forced fall

[2:12:41 AM] Euklyd: and hella fast

[2:12:42 AM] Jedi: Its like

[2:12:51 AM] Euklyd: it doesn't have the same like

[2:12:53 AM] Jedi: Final Cutter + Air Slash

[2:12:55 AM] Euklyd: pokes above the stage

[2:13:11 AM] Euklyd: ok yeah it's more like final cutter

[2:13:35 AM] Euklyd: man

[2:13:41 AM] Euklyd: well

[2:13:41 AM] Jedi: Air Slash like in the way you can pick to do the 2nd hit

[2:13:43 AM] Euklyd: was gonna say like

[2:13:53 AM] Euklyd: "you know you've got issues when you're making link's aerials look good"

[2:13:58 AM] Euklyd: but link's aerials are actually p solid

[2:14:10 AM] Jedi: yeah I was about to say

[2:14:15 AM] Jedi: Links aerials are pretty legit

[euklyd]

Euk and I discussed some of this. If anyone wants to see a segment of the log.

[1:40:04 AM] Euklyd: and his smashes are all hella slow

[1:40:07 AM] Euklyd: well

[1:40:10 AM] Euklyd: dsmash is fast iirc?

[1:40:13 AM] Jedi: dsmash is frame 7

[1:40:28 AM] Euklyd: yeah that's good

[1:40:38 AM] Jedi: nair and fair look awkward if you mis

[1:40:40 AM] Jedi: miss*

[1:40:45 AM] Jedi: but uair and dair look great

[1:40:50 AM] Euklyd: tilts are ok but bad in neutral if their cooldown is as it is

[1:41:57 AM] Euklyd: dair is good but not very versatile

[1:42:10 AM | Edited 1:42:22 AM] Euklyd: if it really is 11 frames it'll be one of the fastest smashes in the game

[1:42:47 AM] Euklyd: back to dsmash

[1:42:51 AM] Euklyd: killing behind him

[1:42:52 AM] Euklyd: is nice

[1:43:08 AM] Euklyd: o rite

[1:43:12 AM] Jedi: bair is also frame 9?

[1:43:14 AM] Euklyd: nair has shit landing lag

[1:43:20 AM] Jedi: yeah

[1:43:25 AM] Jedi: not looking forward to that

[1:43:27 AM] Euklyd: I hope that's not shared with his other aerials

[1:43:32 AM] Euklyd: but like

[1:43:41 AM] Euklyd: on many chars nair has the least landing lag

[1:43:42 AM] Euklyd: :|

[1:43:55 AM] Euklyd: not looking forward to a frame 15 fair

[1:44:15 AM] Euklyd: even if it does spike

[1:44:32 AM] Euklyd: 15 frames of landing lag

[1:44:38 AM] Jedi: i'm just glad his attacks aren't all in the 10's of frames

[1:44:39 AM] Jedi: tbh

[1:44:48 AM] Jedi: in terms of startup

[1:44:49 AM] Euklyd: bair being 9 frames of startup is

[1:44:50 AM] Euklyd: lame

[1:44:56 AM] Jedi: lame?

[1:45:13 AM] Euklyd: yeah

[1:46:01 AM] Euklyd: compare to Ike's 7 frames

[1:46:12 AM] Euklyd: honestly like

[1:46:13 AM] Jedi: 9 is still really fast for his range

[1:46:15 AM] Euklyd: in terms of aerials

[1:46:20 AM] Jedi: Ike beats him

[1:46:22 AM] Euklyd: he's looking like launch ike

[1:46:38 AM] Euklyd: and if his normals have that much cooldown he has very few options

[1:46:40 AM] Jedi: except with a much better uair

[1:46:44 AM] Jedi: that doesn't suck

[1:46:48 AM] Euklyd: uair is very nice but won't combo

[1:47:20 AM] Euklyd: if sideb is safe then it could be nice

[1:47:31 AM] Euklyd: upb is nice

[1:48:10 AM] Jedi: so are you basically trying to say I shouldn't try to main him

[1:48:20 AM] Euklyd: no

[1:48:30 AM] Euklyd: I'm saying that he looks kinda meh from what we've seen so far

[1:48:36 AM] Euklyd: if he has killer throw combos

[1:48:41 AM] Euklyd: or if limit break is super broken

[1:48:43 AM] Jedi: if Ike's better in compeitive I'd likely stay Ike in tourneys

[1:48:47 AM] Euklyd: then it could be enough to make up for it

[1:48:56 AM] Euklyd: actually

[1:49:04 AM] Euklyd: upb being an oos option like that is

[1:49:05 AM] Euklyd: nice

[1:49:25 AM] Jedi: kinda like Brawl Marth

[1:49:30 AM] Jedi: in that sense

[1:49:47 AM] Euklyd: if his aerials really are that poor then like

[1:49:49 AM] Euklyd: ;/

[1:50:14 AM] Jedi: uair, bair and dair look decent enough

[1:50:18 AM] Jedi: shame about fair and nair

[1:50:42 AM] Jedi: he might have approch issues

[1:51:29 AM] Euklyd: actually

[1:51:36 AM] Euklyd: his landing lag isn't too different from ike

[1:51:46 AM] Jedi: its quite a bit worse isn't it?

[1:51:49 AM] Euklyd: if his nair launch angle is as bad as gimr thinks that'll suck

[1:51:49 AM] Euklyd: no

[1:52:13 AM] Jedi: well undenyable that Ike has a much superior aerial game

[1:52:15 AM] Euklyd: landing lag for

nair = 14

fair = 18

bair = 19

uair = 15

dair = 23

[1:52:19 AM] Euklyd: well

[1:52:31 AM] Euklyd: I would say that if Cloud has any sort of followups

[1:52:36 AM] Euklyd: it could be debatable

[1:52:39 AM] Jedi: I'm not sure if he will

[1:52:43 AM] Euklyd: like if you can combo sourspot fair into things

[1:52:46 AM] Euklyd: or nair into things

[1:52:50 AM] Euklyd: or bair into things

[1:52:57 AM] Jedi: from what it looks like

[1:52:58 AM] Euklyd: or combo into like

[1:53:01 AM] Jedi: Ike's nair is super better

[1:53:06 AM] Euklyd: sweetspot fair off of a throw

[1:53:25 AM] Euklyd: his uair looks

[1:53:26 AM] Euklyd: nice

[1:53:30 AM] Euklyd: actually

[1:54:11 AM] Euklyd: gimr is dumb on nair

[1:54:18 AM] Euklyd: he's hitting with the latest hit of nair

[1:54:26 AM] Euklyd: p sure ike's hits behind him as well

[1:54:30 AM] Euklyd: in that spot

[1:54:39 AM] Jedi: yeah but it doesn't lag that bad or send people as far

[1:54:43 AM] Jedi: even in the last spot

[1:54:53 AM] Euklyd: lag is 2 frames difference

[1:55:03 AM] Euklyd: we don't know what % mega was at

[1:57:39 AM] Jedi: Euk you know what surprises me

[1:57:47 AM] Jedi: that his dash attack isn't his regular FF7 attack

[1:58:01 AM] Jedi: considering in ff7 he dashes at the enemy

[1:58:20 AM] Jedi: I guess thats his ftilt?

[1:59:09 AM] Euklyd: ok aerial stuff

[1:59:13 AM] Euklyd: format is

[1:59:33 AM] Euklyd: aerial - hitbox description [startup] / [duration] / [landing lag] / [knockback angle]

[1:59:38 AM] Euklyd: nair - swing all round like ike ?? / 7 / 16 / variable kb angle

[1:59:42 AM] Euklyd: fair - slash in front of him, like ike, hella disjoint 15 / ?? / 15 / spikes at end like dong's

[1:59:45 AM] Euklyd: bair - literally ike's 9 / ?? / ?? / probably sakurai angle

[1:59:49 AM] Euklyd: uair - a lot like ike's, but mostly in front of him 6 / 19 / ??

[1:59:50 AM] Euklyd: dair - like link's 11 / 26 / ?? / initial spike hitbox

[1:59:58 AM] Euklyd: ike has like

[2:01:08 AM] Euklyd: nair - 12 / 16 / 14

fair - 12 / 4 / 18

bair - 7 / 3 / 19

uair - 13 / 17 / 15

dair - 16 / 2 / 23

[2:01:35 AM] Jedi: you know what would be sweet

[2:01:43 AM] Jedi: if uthrow goes right into uair

[2:01:52 AM] Euklyd: yes

[2:02:00 AM] Euklyd: given how fast uair is

[2:02:07 AM] Euklyd: it might be straight-up guaranteed

[2:02:30 AM] Euklyd: if not it's possibly a 50-50 with upb

[2:02:45 AM] Euklyd: upb catches jumps, uair lasts longer than an airdodge

[2:02:55 AM] Jedi: also I'm not sure how I feel about the Megaman style slide

[2:02:58 AM] Euklyd: wait no

[2:03:06 AM] Euklyd: it doesn't last longer than an airdodge

[2:03:26 AM] Euklyd: airdodges are 26 frames of intangibility

[2:03:33 AM] Jedi: a slide move is very weird for a swordie to have

[2:03:36 AM] Jedi: wouldn't you say

[2:03:40 AM] Euklyd: yeah

[2:03:44 AM] Euklyd: but it could be interesting

[2:03:50 AM] Euklyd: no reason it couldn't work

[2:03:54 AM] Jedi: wait

[2:03:57 AM] Jedi: could I slide under needles

[2:04:06 AM] Euklyd: I wanna say not

[2:04:10 AM] Jedi: haha yeah

[2:04:14 AM] Euklyd: because sheik kinda crouches when she throws

[2:04:25 AM] Jedi: it'd catch Clouds hair

[2:04:27 AM] Euklyd: it depends on how low to the ground cloud gets

[2:04:33 AM] Jedi: which we all know

[2:04:36 AM] Jedi: is his worst hitbox

[2:04:40 AM] Jedi: :P

[2:04:44 AM] Euklyd: liiike he gets preeeeetty low

[2:04:54 AM] Jedi: he may go lower than Mega

[2:04:57 AM] Jedi: because he like

[2:05:00 AM] Jedi: thins out completely

[2:05:06 AM] Jedi: Mega is half crouching

[2:05:33 AM] Jedi: low % dtilt to uair

[2:05:35 AM] Jedi: may be a thing

[2:05:49 AM] Euklyd: I doubt it

[2:05:52 AM] Jedi: probably

[2:05:55 AM] Euklyd: I'd imagine it has a lot of cooldown

[2:05:55 AM] Jedi: I can dream though

[2:06:03 AM] Jedi: what if it has like

[2:06:05 AM] Jedi: no lag

[2:06:06 AM] Jedi: lol

[2:06:09 AM] Euklyd: I think everything depends on how well nair combos into things

[2:06:14 AM] Euklyd: if you can get shit like

[2:06:26 AM] Euklyd: nair -> fair spike

[2:06:27 AM] Jedi: fthrow -> fair?

[2:06:31 AM] Euklyd: then that's huge

[2:06:43 AM] Euklyd: or nair -> dair

[2:06:50 AM] Euklyd: or nair -> uair is also nice

[2:06:52 AM] Jedi: Euk I was thinking maybe one of his throws could true combo with blade beam

[2:06:57 AM] Jedi: maybe

[2:07:07 AM] Euklyd: bb has 20 frames of startup

[2:07:18 AM] Jedi: throw mix up?

[2:07:44 AM] Euklyd: maaaaaybe

[2:08:02 AM] Jedi: my friend and I were joking

[2:08:06 AM] Euklyd: what even other aerial combos could he go for

[2:08:06 AM] Jedi: if Sephiroth came with him

[2:08:09 AM] Euklyd: maaaaaybe fair stuff?

[2:08:10 AM] Jedi: we'd have Melee marth back

[2:08:47 AM] Jedi: did we even see his utilt

[2:08:51 AM] Jedi: I don't think we did

[2:09:00 AM] Jedi: I hope it can launch into uair

[2:09:12 AM] Euklyd: we did see it

[2:09:19 AM] Jedi: we saw his usmash

[2:09:20 AM] Euklyd: it had shit cooldown (maaaybe)

[2:09:23 AM] Jedi: Oh

[2:09:24 AM] Jedi: wait

[2:09:25 AM] Euklyd: depends on iasa frames

[2:09:27 AM] Jedi: vs Sonic

[2:09:37 AM] Euklyd: we saw all his normals

[2:09:42 AM] Jedi: it looked like he dodges right after his utilt

[2:09:43 AM] Euklyd: didn't see grab or throws

[2:09:47 AM] Jedi: we saw one throw

[2:09:48 AM] Euklyd: yeah he did

[2:09:59 AM] Jedi: but not the launch distance

[2:10:00 AM] Jedi: or anything

[2:10:06 AM] Euklyd: yea

[2:10:52 AM] Euklyd: hm

[2:10:53 AM] Euklyd: I don't see fthrow comboing into much

[2:11:02 AM] Euklyd: nor bthrow

[2:11:13 AM] Euklyd: uthrow and dthrow, then

[2:11:18 AM] Euklyd: well

[2:11:24 AM] Euklyd: fthrow could be like sonic's or s/t

[2:11:27 AM] Jedi: fthrow could be weird

[2:11:37 AM] Euklyd: yea

[2:11:49 AM] Euklyd: man it'd be so hype if like

[2:11:55 AM] Euklyd: he had a throw that could combo into suicide upb

[2:12:05 AM] Jedi: lol

[2:12:20 AM] Jedi: I think it would be cool

[2:12:21 AM] Jedi: if he coukd

[2:12:26 AM] Jedi: fthrow into a fair

[2:12:26 AM] Euklyd: upb looks like it could be sooooo good

[2:12:27 AM] Euklyd: like

[2:12:36 AM] Euklyd: aether without the forced fall

[2:12:41 AM] Euklyd: and hella fast

[2:12:42 AM] Jedi: Its like

[2:12:51 AM] Euklyd: it doesn't have the same like

[2:12:53 AM] Jedi: Final Cutter + Air Slash

[2:12:55 AM] Euklyd: pokes above the stage

[2:13:11 AM] Euklyd: ok yeah it's more like final cutter

[2:13:35 AM] Euklyd: man

[2:13:41 AM] Euklyd: well

[2:13:41 AM] Jedi: Air Slash like in the way you can pick to do the 2nd hit

[2:13:43 AM] Euklyd: was gonna say like

[2:13:53 AM] Euklyd: "you know you've got issues when you're making link's aerials look good"

[2:13:58 AM] Euklyd: but link's aerials are actually p solid

[2:14:10 AM] Jedi: yeah I was about to say

[2:14:15 AM] Jedi: Links aerials are pretty legit

the tl;dr is that he looks like he'll play like ike but so much of whether or not he's any good depends on throw combos and what nair or fair can combo into

also if his limit system is broken as fuck (like a waft or KO punch or something) or limit kill moves (assuming they exist) can be set up into (like shoryuken) then that does a lot for him

Edited November 16, 2015 by Euklyd

[Jedi]

I think Cloud has better smashes overall, while Ike has the better grab (as of now) and aerial game, Ike also probably has the edge in just footsies as his tilts have less lag.

Cloud does look to have some interesting utility with his very good uair and dtilt, also his Utilt may not have that much lag, considering how fast he can spotdodge. I'm all the more curious how Cross Slash fully works, if it continues if it misses etc. Frame 8 is pretty good.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Jedi

[Great Geargia Gateway]

"Could he slide under needles?"
*I Gasp*

"I wanna say not"

Don't f*ck with me boy.

Edit: You also forgot to add that Ike had some decent edge guard game, too. fSmash had range over the edge and Eruption can be spiking or skyrocketing anyone coming from below with a well timed and decent charged B.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Great Geargia Gateway

[Jedi]

Yeah Ike has a pretty solid edge guard game, Cloud does have a projectile to his name which may make him edge guard a bit differently than Ike.

Also it looks like Cloud has more "You effed up an air dodge now die to a spike" than Ike. I'm gonna lean that they'll feel very different on the edge of tomorrow.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Jedi

[Great Geargia Gateway]

Cloud's projectiles I presume will be a good way to force moves on your opponent compared to Ike who can't even get enough out of Quick Draw. Cloud's projectiles I feel can stop the Space animals side-b's at stage level. I wonder if it'll have priority over certain other projectiles; I guessing needles, maybe Saw Blades from MegaM.

[euklyd]

I think Cloud has better smashes overall, while Ike has the better grab (as of now) and aerial game, Ike also probably has the edge in just footsies as his tilts have less lag.

Cloud does look to have some interesting utility with his very good uair and dtilt, also his Utilt may not have that much lag, considering how fast he can spotdodge. I'm all the more curious how Cross Slash fully works, if it continues if it misses etc. Frame 8 is pretty good.

I don't see his dtilt being very good

situationally useful but I don't think it'll start combos or be a safe poke or anything

[Jedi]

Cloud's projectiles I presume will be a good way to force moves on your opponent compared to Ike who can't even get enough out of Quick Draw. Cloud's projectiles I feel can stop the Space animals side-b's at stage level. I wonder if it'll have priority over certain other projectiles; I guessing needles, maybe Saw Blades from MegaM.

I'm wondering how its priority is myself, I'm also wondering if Villager can pocket it lol. (Likely)

I don't see his dtilt being very good

situationally useful but I don't think it'll start combos or be a safe poke or anything

I see it being good for mixups and possible surprise attacks, or just something that catches people not familiar with the MU offguard.

[mozumes]

Am I the only one who thinks Limit Breaker is going to be like Shulk's monado arts?

[Jedi]

If the Limit Break worked like Shulks Monado arts. It would quite honestly be pretty broken.

[NoNameAtAll]

I saw so much salt. I mean, really? Wow. Would I have preferred a different Final Fantasy rep? Sure.

dat gilgamesh

But am I raging about it? Hell no. I'm actually hyped. I now begin to view Smash less about Nintendo-only all-stars, but more of a celebration of video gaming in general.

With that said...

I've also seen wants for Snake's return and a Belmont. I'd love for either of those to happen.

Only one problem:

Konami has gone full-on derp, in case y'all forgot.

Edited November 16, 2015 by NoNameAtAll

[Dai]

I've also seen wants for Snake's return and a Belmont. I'd love for either of those to happen.

Only one problem:

Konami has gone full-on derp, in case y'all forgot.

This is kinda why, even though I want Simon Belmont brought in, or just an all around Belmont, I don't want them brought in unless someone ELSE acquires the rights to Castlevania, first.

[NoNameAtAll]

This is kinda why, even though I want Simon Belmont brought in, or just an all around Belmont, I don't want them brought in unless someone ELSE acquires the rights to Castlevania, first.

I don't care how Simon got in, even if it was a case of Konami allowing it.

I'm just realistic in my expectations. Not to mention the mess with Kojima at Konami. Plus, Koji Igarashi has long since left Konami after Harmony of Despair.

I just don't see any Konami rep getting in. Which also includes Bomberman due to the Hudson-Soft acquisition.

[Jedi]

While Richter Belmont is my personal favorite, I know it would be Simon and I think Sakurai could convince them to use him if need-be, all Konami needs to see is "$$$" right now and they'd agree I think.

I've been quite annoyed with the series direction since Lords of Shadow, it would be nice to see Simon or hell Alucard.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Jedi

[Great Geargia Gateway]

If they put Simon Belmont in Smash, then I'll crank "Crasher-vania" to maximum, along with "A Simple Plot of Final Fantasy 7".

[Knight]

If they do put Simon Belmont in Smash though, I hope they give him his classic and manly NES-SNES look instead of his bishonen or Lords of Shadow look. Not really a fan of the later designs of him, and there are plenty of prettyboys characters in Smash already, we don't need one in a leather outfit.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Knight

[Fire Emblem Fan]

If they do put Simon Belmont in Smash though, I hope they give him his classic and manly NES-SNES look instead of his bishonen or Lords of Shadow look. Not really a fan of the later designs of him

100% agreed. I am not a fan of the Lords of Shadows games.

[Great Geargia Gateway]

Lords of Shadow is about Gabriel Belmont doh. He just inherited the Belmont name cause he's beast. With an extremely high ranged whip almost able to cover the Battlefield stage. Why would you think they'd use Gabriel in the first place?