Gender Restricted Classes

[Momo]

What in the world is the problem with letting people be whatever they want? We should have male pegs, we should have big buff lady berserkers, we should have guys on horses using staves.

[Anouleth]

No, I'm saying that if NM really wanted m/f pegs to be different because he can't see the point I'm making, he can see male pegs along her statlines or something. I like Farina the way she is, but I would like male pegs in future FEs (especially if reclass is a thing) regardless of whatever niche they occupy within the pegasus knight class.

So you think it's fine that thirteen Fire Emblem games had exclusively female pegasus knights, but it would be unacceptable for them to do it in fourteen games?

I feel that it pointless to demand male units to be "different" in the same way that female and male units of non-gender-locked classes really aren't /that/ much different when you get down to it, especially in classes with more stat specialisation, and I see no reason for male pegs, should the exist, to be any different from that.

I feel that it is pointless to demand male or female units of any class, since female and male units of the same class aren't really any different when you get down to it.

What in the world is the problem with letting people be whatever they want? We should have male pegs, we should have big buff lady berserkers, we should have guys on horses using staves.

People can only be whatever they want in games aimed at children under the age of 10 who might actually believe such a load of rubbish. I think you'll find that while disbelief can be suspended sufficiently to accommodate dragons or magic, it rarely covers letting people be whatever they want to be. After all, people actually did believe (and some still do believe) that magic is real. Whereas nobody believes that anyone can be what they want to be.

Fire Emblem is already too saccharine by far for me, what with all this crap about the power of friendship. Putting in "you can do anything as long as you BELIEVE in yourself!" would be vomit-inducing...

[Rehab]

Not having any characters of a class in the history of a series happen to be one sex implies, whether that's the intention or not, that the creators believe that the function said class performs can only be performed by that one sex. It is very hard, if even possible, to do that in a way that is not at least implicitly sexist, especially when the series almost never acknowledges it and Fire Emblem hasn't really proven itself to be an exception.

On an individual level, there's nothing wrong with having any character of any position be any sex. It's not a matter of the characters that exist being flawed due to their sexes, but having them as they are in aggregate implicitly reenforces meaningless gender roles, in these cases along the lines of "women can't be warriors" or "men can't (have whatever personality trait that allows one to) ride a pegasus," which happen to both be demonstrably false, assuming one allows for more variety in character design. Which is never a bad thing. That has nothing to do with being saccharine or spewing cliche anime platitudes, it has to do with not being a small-minded fool.

Seriously, how the hell did you you draw a connection between "people come in many shapes and sizes, and it would be nice for games to respectfully reflect that" to "we like bad writing"

Edited June 16, 2013 by Rehab

[MajorMajora]

So you think it's fine that thirteen Fire Emblem games had exclusively female pegasus knights, but it would be unacceptable for them to do it in fourteen games?

I feel that it is pointless to demand male or female units of any class, since female and male units of the same class aren't really any different when you get down to it.

People can only be whatever they want in games aimed at children under the age of 10 who might actually believe such a load of rubbish. I think you'll find that while disbelief can be suspended sufficiently to accommodate dragons or magic, it rarely covers letting people be whatever they want to be. After all, people actually did believe (and some still do believe) that magic is real. Whereas nobody believes that anyone can be what they want to be.

Fire Emblem is already too saccharine by far for me, what with all this crap about the power of friendship. Putting in "you can do anything as long as you BELIEVE in yourself!" would be vomit-inducing...

I think you're taking his argument out of context. He's not saying people should be able to 'push the boundaries of what is and isn't possible' or what not. He's saying that none of the classes in fire emblem (except maybe Bride) have any good reason to be gender specific. He's not talking about pushing down boundaries, he's questioning their existence in the first place.

[Momo]

People can only be whatever they want in games aimed at children under the age of 10 who might actually believe such a load of rubbish. I think you'll find that while disbelief can be suspended sufficiently to accommodate dragons or magic, it rarely covers letting people be whatever they want to be. After all, people actually did believe (and some still do believe) that magic is real. Whereas nobody believes that anyone can be what they want to be.

Fire Emblem is already too saccharine by far for me, what with all this crap about the power of friendship. Putting in "you can do anything as long as you BELIEVE in yourself!" would be vomit-inducing...

Um, exactly how couldn't any of those things be possible? We've already seen that men can ride pegasi, buff women certainly exist, and men can ride horses and use staves. I don't know what the hell you're going on about here, but people should be encouraged to be what they want.

[Anouleth]

Not having any characters of a class in the history of a series happen to be one sex implies, whether that's the intention or not, that the creators believe that the function said class performs can only be performed by that one sex. It is very hard, if even possible, to do that in a way that is not at least implicitly sexist, especially when the series almost never acknowledges it and Fire Emblem hasn't really proven itself to be an exception.

Well, since the function of Fighters is to hit things with Axes, and female Great Knights hit things with axes, that should absolutely clear up the question of whether Intelligent Systems believe whether women could hit things with axes.

On an individual level, there's nothing wrong with having any character of any position be any sex. It's not a matter of the characters that exist being flawed due to their sexes, but having them as they are in aggregate implicitly reenforces meaningless gender roles, in these cases along the lines of "women can't be warriors" or "men can't (have whatever personality trait that allows one to) ride a pegasus," which happen to both be demonstrably false, assuming one allows for more variety in character design. Which is never a bad thing.

No, extra variety in character designs can be a bad thing. Look at other noted JRPGs, like Final Fantasy or Tales, where the character design is completely unhinged and ridiculous because the designers don't follow any rules, like "characters should have only one belt" or "breasts obey the laws of gravity". Character design must follow the rules of what humans are actually capable of looking like. Certainly, on the subject of "variety", FE13 has bags of it: but while a 10 year old in a green bikini is certainly something new, and something that adds variety, and something that we've never really seen before in FE, that doesn't mean it's a good thing to have one, for the sake of "variety". That's not to say that variety isn't a good thing, but removing restrictions on character design is not necessarily a good thing either, and Fire Emblem, as it is, already has plenty of variety. It's not in need of any more. If anything, Fire Emblem needs more sober, structured, and believable character design rather than to go for the more fantastical and outrageous.

That has nothing to do with being saccharine or spewing cliche anime platitudes, it has to do with not being a small-minded fool.

A world in which people can follow any profession they want to is inherently unbelievable and completely uninteresting.

Seriously, how the hell did you you draw a connection between "people come in many shapes and sizes, and it would be nice for games to respectfully reflect that" to "we like bad writing"

I don't know, when I read "let people be whatever they want", red mist covers my vision and I awaken two hours later to find my keyboard smeared with blood (not mine) and posts in my name on Serenes Forest.

[Momo]

Are you comparing gender equality to a ten year old wearing... that?

[Refa]

Being able to make your own Avatar, it would make sense to get rid of gender restricted classes. Talking from a female perspective, I would like to be that strong axe wielding berserker woman with a STR asset. In FE12 if you unlock something, males can reclass into any class sans Pegasus knight. Palla would be fit for a pirate or a fighter class given the high STR growth.

Palla is fine where she is, thank you very much.

[Anouleth]

Are you comparing gender equality to a ten year old wearing... that?

If the argument in favor of male pegasus knights is that it will increase the amount of "variety" in character design, and that more variety in character design is ALWAYS GOOD, then yes, I am comparing the two.

[thetiger39]

Palla is fine where she is, thank you very much.

Palla's STR growth is wasted on a low STR class asuming that an elysian whip is used on promotion. She needs to be in a class with 30 STR cap. Not enough females with High HP/STR/DEF and garbage SPD/RES/SKL. That 90% STR growth as a fighter would make Vaike's contract on the team null and void and bought out.

[Agro]

If you're not athletic and 20 years old you don't exist. End of story.

[Anouleth]

Palla's STR growth is wasted on a low STR class asuming that an elysian whip is used on promotion. She needs to be in a class with 30 STR cap. Not enough females with High HP/STR/DEF and garbage SPD/RES/SKL.

Why do you need females with high HP/STR/DEF and low SPD/RES/SKL?

That 90% STR growth as a fighter would make Vaike's contract on the team null and void and bought out.

What does Palla have to do with Vaike?

[Rehab]

You are attacking different arguments from the ones I am making, and, far as I can tell, ones that no longer have anything whatsoever to do with the relationship between a character's gender and their class. I am not, for example, arguing Tetsuya Nomura should be designing all of the characters, or even a single character, or even that he should have the smallest influence on the design of any characters in Fire Emblem, and I don't remember bringing up Awakening in any capacity, certainly not as a shining standard of series character design. The idea for which I am arguing is that restricting characters from some classes based on their sex is pointless, and it places an unnecessary obstacle in the way of character design.

If the series has already tacitly admitted that women can use axes proficiently in battle, having a women either be a fighter as a base class or as a class change option should be no problem, then. Glad we can come to fucking terms on that. The series has also admitted that men can ride horses, and wield lances and swords on horseback, so there should be no restriction, implicit or explicit, on whether men can ride horses that happen to fly. And yet, we have seen either little or neither of these ingame. I simply can't find a good reason why not to have them.

"Variety" doesn't inherently mean "nonsensical." "Variety in character design" needn't even have to do with costume design. I am using "variety," in this instance, to refer to the physical design of people. People, literally, come in many shapes and sizes. There are plenty of grown men, indeed plenty of men in peak physical condition, who're of slight enough build to be realistically comparable to, say, that of Ninian's, or that of Marcia's. There are also plenty of women in peak physical condition whose builds are far larger. People who would quite believably be able to fit the roles of classes that they are currently restricted from. They are not currently being represented in the series well, even though they could fit into the setting just fine. It would be nothing if not more realistic if we saw more of them.

[thetiger39]

Why do you need females with high HP/STR/DEF and low SPD/RES/SKL?

What does Palla have to do with Vaike?

Whats wrong with some female character having great physical stats but garbage finesse stats and cant take a single fireball to the face. Find a way to get Palla to fighter. Its a 90% STR growth. Vaike, Hector and these typical strong males would be put to shame.

Edited June 17, 2013 by thetiger39

[Anouleth]

You are attacking different arguments from the ones I am making, and, far as I can tell, ones that no longer have anything whatsoever to do with the relationship between a character's gender and their class. I am not, for example, arguing Tetsuya Nomura should be designing all of the characters, or even a single character, or even that he should have the smallest influence on the design of any characters in Fire Emblem, and I don't remember bringing up Awakening in any capacity, certainly not as a shining standard of series character design. The idea for which I am arguing is that restricting characters from some classes based on their sex is pointless, and it places an unnecessary obstacle in the way of character design.

You said that "more variety in character designs is never a bad thing". Obviously, this is just wrong. When people make incorrect and factually untrue statements, I point out that they are incorrect, and factually untrue.

Like it or lump it, Awakening has a lot of "variety" in it's character design. It even includes brown people! By your logic, Fire Emblem Awakening has the best character design in the series.

If the series has already tacitly admitted that women can use axes proficiently in battle, having a women either be a fighter as a base class or as a class change option should be no problem, then. Glad we can come to fucking terms on that. The series has also admitted that men can ride horses, and wield lances and swords on horseback, so there should be no restriction, implicit or explicit, on whether men can ride horses that happen to fly. And yet, we have seen either little or neither of these ingame. I simply can't find a good reason why not to have them.

I can't find a good reason to give a shit, although admittedly I didn't look very hard.

"Variety" doesn't inherently mean "nonsensical." "Variety in character design" needn't even have to do with costume design. I am using "variety," in this instance, to refer to the physical design of people. People, literally, come in many shapes and sizes. There are plenty of grown men, indeed plenty of men in peak physical condition, who're of slight enough build to be realistically comparable to, say, that of Ninian's, or that of Marcia's.

But you do see men like this; such as Rhys, or Leonardo, or Zihark.

There are also plenty of women in peak physical condition whose builds are far larger. People who would quite believably be able to fit the roles of classes that they are currently restricted from. They are not currently being represented in the series well, even though they could fit into the setting just fine. It would be nothing if not more realistic if we saw more of them.

And yet, this category is extremely small. Even on the chart of olympic level athletes Lumi posted, there are only three women who weigh over 200lbs. If, even at the very highest levels of sports, women with heavy, muscular builds are uncommon, I then doubt that there are "plenty of women" whose builds are far larger. So no, I don't think that big, muscular women are a large demographic that goes underrepresented in Fire Emblem. Fat women? Yeah, but they're underrepresented for a reason. Edited June 17, 2013 by Anouleth

[The Void]

Would having a playable Pegasus Knight who is a man ruin Fire Emblem?

And that isn't like a Berserker who is a woman since the series has already had Pegasus Knights who are men. Which makes "ONLY GIRLS CAN RIDE FLYING HORSES" a retcon.

[Parrhesia]

NO.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, KEEP THIS SHIT OUT OF FIRE EMBLEM

I DON'T WANT THE WHOLE MODERN PESUDO-FEMINIST MOVEMENT REARING THEIR UGLY HEADS AT THIS.

ITS BAD ENOUGH THAT THEY'VE DECIDED TO FUCK WITH VIDEO GAMES AT ALL. I DON'T WANT THAT SHIT ANYWHERE NEAR SERIES I LIKE.

hhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahaha

[Lord of Gabriel Knight]

I don't see why there is even a debate. Of course men and women should share classes.

[thetiger39]

I don't see why there is even a debate. Of course men and women should share classes.

I know man. Any person could pick up an axe and start chopping wood or get on a horse and heal the wounded.

[Momo]

If the argument in favor of male pegasus knights is that it will increase the amount of "variety" in character design, and that more variety in character design is ALWAYS GOOD, then yes, I am comparing the two.

Do people really have to say "We want GOOD diversity" to satisfy you? You can have gender equality and not shitty designs at the same time, you know. You seem to think we're asking for the Awakening designs to show up again (heeeell no, and not even just for Nowi or stuff like Dark Mages).

[tacticianjenro]

I wonder what a male Pegasus Knight would wear?

Pegasus knights are known for their low defenses, short skirts, light clothing and armor...

[Acacia Sgt]

I wonder what a male Pegasus Knight would wear?

Pegasus knights are known for their low defenses, short skirts, light clothing and armor...

I can see him wearing the Tellian uniform, adjusted appropriately of course.

[Thor Odinson]

I think the Tellius outfits should stay for female pegs anyway. They were IMO the best.

[Lord of Gabriel Knight]

I can see him wearing the Tellian uniform, adjusted appropriately of course.

same as the women, as little as possible

[Steampunk]

Not having any characters of a class in the history of a series happen to be one sex implies, whether that's the intention or not, that the creators believe that the function said class performs can only be performed by that one sex.

I think that's actually a little insulting to the development team. Fire Emblem is really good about gender equality. FE women aren't just sex appeal or damsels in distress like in many other games. They're capable, competent, and make up a good number outstanding units in the series. If anything, I'd say the devs imposing arbitrary class limitations says more about how they think men and women are equally capable. If they have to make a few classes gender-specific for no other reason than to create jobs that only men or women can do, I'd say they consider men and women pretty damn equal.

There's a really good reference image I know of with both male and female olympic athletes and there's a very big range of different body types, and very unlike what's being portrayed in the media.

If we're talking diversity for stylistic reasons, I think that would be great. If we're looking at what "real" soldiers in Fire Emblem would look like, we're comparing apples to oranges. Athletes specialize in one physical activity, and can dedicate themselves to peak physical performance in that one thing: Sprinters can focus on sprinting, lifters can focus on raw strength and lifting. Soldiers need both strength and mobility and are conditioned for that regardless of their roles (pilots, infantry, artillery, armor units). Looking at women in RL militaries, they seem to have rather similar musculature that offers the best of both. I'm sure the devs use that physique for its visual appeal, but perhaps that body shape is so appealing because it reflects good health and physical ability; both of which are important in military service.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Sheik