Is Armsthrift overrated?

[Donnel]

You know, I'm starting to think you're a troll. You consistently ignore all of my points in every debate we have and instead make sarcastic remarks and rhetoric to convince the mindless people that read your posts, and claim that I'm the one being stubborn when I'm not the one ignoring any of the points you make.

If you really are a troll, though, then you are quite a good one.

lol, Chiki has a personal troll.

*pop popcorns.

[Chiki]

Can't win an argument by debating? Try an ad hominen!

Every sentence Interceptor posts is an ad hominem. =_=

You're not even contesting that, just doing a sleight of hand where you pretend that someone said it was amazing (when actually it was just said to be useful).

your ignorance here is excusable since it seems that you've never played that mode.

For someone who rides the Semantics Train™ so often, this careless mistake from you is a bit surprising.

Ashera protect us all, the day that I start taking advice from someone who makes as many errors as you do.

By which you largely mean ignoring the things that are devastating to your case; but this is no surprise to anyone familiar with your posting style. And it's also not a problem, since I'm not that easily distracted.

you can't be taken seriously

File this under "why you're not a debating partner that I have any respect for", and understand it's why you can't expect full arguments from my corner.

Evidence (further evidence, that is) that you never understood my argument in the first place,

A novice, like I said.

You give no value to avoiding resets, which alone would make your argument hilarious, but it's coupled with a seeming inability to understand what the word "useful" means, for extra flavor.

Smells like all of the above, to me. We'll never know, since even getting you to admit that Armsthrift is "useful" (not even good, just "useful") is like nailing Jell-O to the wall.

Did you ever watch Sesame Street as a kid?

Sorry, I can't give meaning to your life; that's a job for your local preacher.

or are we going to continue your streak of obstinacy and hand-waving and shiny objects?

You saw it, folks: obstinacy and inability to admit when someone has a point.

This is an epic logic fail if I ever saw one, since a soft reset/reload adds no time to the clock whatsoever.

It's magnanimous of you to offer an apology, but I assure you that I'm not the least bit offended by your endless parade of childishness.

I didn't even include the sarcastic remarks he made.

He's simply wrong about Armsthrift being useful in Lunatic+, anyway. It might be useful for some pointless Lunatic+ bow playthrough, but that's not the best way to finish Lunatic+. I could finish Lunatic+ by using only girls and Donnel, too, but that's not the best way to finish Lunatic+. The best strategy to finish it is the one that I have explained, and that does not need Armsthrift. That is why I think Armsthrift is not necessary for Lunatic+,

Edited June 19, 2013 by Chiki

[Randa]

Two things again you wonder why people think your an elitist.

And the more important one, NOBODY argued it was essential. We didn't say it was needed we said it could be useful. You are the only one who makes it out to be more than it is, and then argue against it.

[Interceptor]

It should come as no surprise that people aren't leaping to your defense, Chiki, considering that you rolled a grenade into the thread and called everyone "mindless". That's bad form. Insult me all you want; I don't care, since I don't have any respect for you to begin with. But it's something else entirely to fire indiscriminately at innocent bystanders.

He's simply wrong about Armsthrift being useful in Lunatic+, anyway. It might be useful for some pointless Lunatic+ bow playthrough, but that's not the best way to finish Lunatic+. I could finish Lunatic+ by using only girls and Donnel, too, but that's not the best way to finish Lunatic+. The best strategy to finish it is the one that I have explained, and that does not need Armsthrift. That is why I think Armsthrift is not necessary for Lunatic+,

Let's break this "argument" into its component parts, and ignore the fact that you ended a paragraph with a comma:

• Interceptor is wrong about Armsthrift being useful in Lunatic+
• Actually he might be right.
• But ignoring the most dangerous Lunatic+ skills is not the best way to finish the mode.
• The best strategy is the one that I detailed.
• "Best" is defined as "what I did".
• My strategy did not need Armsthrift.
• Therefore, Armsthrift is not necessary for Lunatic+.

There are a bunch of hilarious things in here, but in my opinion, the best one is the non sequitur that spans the entire manifesto. You start by saying that I am wrong for calling Armsthrift useful, and by the end that word has morphed into "necessary".

I'm not sure where you bought your thesaurus, but you might want to go back and ask for a refund.

[Chiki]

Tediously training bow users is simply not the best and easiest way to clear Lunatic+, and that's why Armsthrift isn't necessary. There are a lot of easier and better ways to clear Lunatic+--for example, the Sol + Nosferatu strategy I've suggested and the Galeforce strategy--my strategy isn't the only one. I can clear normal mode with a Donnel solo, too, and make great use of Armsthrift at the same time, but that doesn't mean Armsthrift is necessary.

Clearing Lunatic+ with bow users is no different than clearing normal mode with a Donnel solo. Both strategies take time to develop and are very tedious to pull off, but become hard to stop once fully trained. Armsthrift could be fantastic for Donnel due to Helswath, for example, but that doesn't mean it's good for normal mode in general at all.

I think the same of clearing Lunatic+ with bow users as I do of clearing normal mode with a Donnel solo. Both make good use of Armsthrift, but are by no means evidence of the fact that Armsthrift is useful for the mode in general. Sure, bow users avoid Counter and Pavise+, and that's great and all, but it's incredibly tedious to get your units there in the first place (and not to mention, you conveniently ignored my argument when I told you that your own playthrough is PEMN). On the other hand, Sol + Nosferatu and intelligent, slow play allows you to effectively negate Counter, and it ignores Pavise+ as well. A Galeforce strategy allows you to ignore boss rush chapters. You also don't have to bother training the Avatar in the same way that you would train a handful of bow users at all--and that's why my strategy and the Galeforce strategy are superior to yours.

It's also worth noting that you conveniently ignored my entire argument about your playthrough being PEMN. You accused me of that when you said my experience with my playthrough means nothing, but you are the only person that I know of who has cleared Lunatic+ with bow users, so I am sure that most of your argument for Armsthrift's usefulness comes from your own playthrough. Yet your own playthrough is influenced by the RNG due to growths and so on, as mine is. So I am sure that your playthrough is a slave to the RNG--it is obviously not immune to it, and you would not deny this either. So why ignore the argument? It's pretty clear that according to your own logic, your bow playthrough is worthless, so why are you even trying to argue about it in the first place?

Edited June 19, 2013 by Chiki

[Scarlet]

ITT: Chiki continues to morph "useful" into "necessary" despite having been called out on it multiple times and continues to base his entire argument on it supposedly being "necessary".

Someone give this man a medal.

@Topic: Armsthrift gives you more effective money to work with, and I haven't seen a lot of people argue it somehow doing more than that. Ergo, it isn't overrated.

As long as money is a factor to the player, it's useful. Not "necessary", but nice to have. Just like any other skill, really - I don't think any single skill is "necessary" to complete the game.

[Elieson]

Olwen.

Who said Armsthrift is necessary?

[Da Bear]

Olwen.

Who said Armsthrift is necessary?

Olwen.

Edited June 19, 2013 by bearclaw13

[Chiki]

By necessary I meant necessary enough to say that Armsthrift isn't overrated.

[Mighty Kamina]

Armsthrift is definitely a nice skill to have, but it's far from needed. (That being said I have Armsthrift on everyone who can get it.)

[Donnel]

this is why i like forum. I thought the argument had ended with definite conclusion yet somehow or rather there's 'new' things to talk about.

Armsthift is not overrated,

obviously not underrated and don't need to nitpick.

[Interceptor]

It's also worth noting that you conveniently ignored [...]

There are a lot of reasons to ignore what you post, but usually it's because you've said something irrelevant, tangential, fallacious, or I simply don't have the patience to explain it in a way that you'd be able to understand.

When ignorance is coupled with graciousness or an open mind, I have no problem taking the time to detail something to someone. But you're arrogant, contrary, and intolerant; I'd rather hurl myself face-first down a flight of stairs than explain a complex concept to you. Both things are painful and ultimately pointless, but the former is at least briefly entertaining. For the same reason that I don't debate with five-year-olds on the subject of why they need to eat their vegetables, I'm not going to entertain every fool notion that you come up with. It would be helpful for you if you learned to accept that, but ultimately it's irrelevant to me whether you do or do not.

In this specific case: you don't understand what "PEMN" means, and I have no inclination to give you a second explanation after you failed the first one. There's no point in highlighting that I have stat-screwed characters, or that screw-potential is common to both runs, or that certain things are not subject to being screwed, or that specific steps are taken to make stats irrelevant, because you lack the basic foundation to even understand why these things might be important. It would be like trying to have a discussion about the health benefits of beta-carotene, after you've already decided that broccoli is alien poison from Mars. It just ain't happenin' son. Maybe someone else will take you on as a charity case, but it won't be this soldier.

Naturally, even this much is just an irrelevant tangent. The "argument" about Armsthrift is just based on "usefulness" versus [your crazy "required" BS], of which Lunatic+ is only a single tiny example. Quite seriously it misses the forest for the trees.

Of course, I'm fully aware that all of the text written up above is being interpreted in your mind as something like "blah blah understand blah blah failed", and you've spent the last 2-3 minutes figuring out how to insert the word "sophistry" into your next post. So realistically, this is just a little bit of life lesson slash warning for everyone else who is following along.

[Chiki]

An entire paragraph dedicated to ad hominem. It's quite rich how you accuse me of that.

There are a lot of reasons to ignore what you post, but usually it's because you've said something irrelevant, tangential, fallacious, or I simply don't have the patience to explain it in a way that you'd be able to understand.

When ignorance is coupled with graciousness or an open mind, I have no problem taking the time to detail something to someone. But you're arrogant, contrary, and intolerant; I'd rather hurl myself face-first down a flight of stairs than explain a complex concept to you. Both things are painful and ultimately pointless, but the former is at least briefly entertaining. For the same reason that I don't debate with five-year-olds on the subject of why they need to eat their vegetables, I'm not going to entertain every fool notion that you come up with. It would be helpful for you if you learned to accept that, but ultimately it's irrelevant to me whether you do or do not.

In this specific case: you don't understand what "PEMN" means, and I have no inclination to give you a second explanation after you failed the first one. There's no point in highlighting that I have stat-screwed characters, or that screw-potential is common to both runs, or that certain things are not subject to being screwed, or that specific steps are taken to make stats irrelevant, because you lack the basic foundation to even understand why these things might be important. It would be like trying to have a discussion about the health benefits of beta-carotene, after you've already decided that broccoli is alien poison from Mars. It just ain't happenin' son. Maybe someone else will take you on as a charity case, but it won't be this soldier.


Naturally, even this much is just an irrelevant tangent. The "argument" about Armsthrift is just based on "usefulness" versus [your crazy "required" BS], of which Lunatic+ is only a single tiny example. Quite seriously it misses the forest for the trees.

Of course, I'm fully aware that all of the text written up above is being interpreted in your mind as something like "blah blah understand blah blah failed", and you've spent the last 2-3 minutes figuring out how to insert the word "sophistry" into your next post. So realistically, this is just a little bit of life lesson slash warning for everyone else who is following along.

This entire post is ad hominem, other than the bolded part, which makes zero sense. Holy crap, you didn't reply to a single thing I said. Not a single thing. I'm giving you my entire post again so you can respond to it:

Tediously training bow users is simply not the best and easiest way to clear Lunatic+, and that's why Armsthrift isn't necessary. There are a lot of easier and better ways to clear Lunatic+--for example, the Sol + Nosferatu strategy I've suggested and the Galeforce strategy--my strategy isn't the only one. I can clear normal mode with a Donnel solo, too, and make great use of Armsthrift at the same time, but that doesn't mean Armsthrift is necessary.

Clearing Lunatic+ with bow users is no different than clearing normal mode with a Donnel solo. Both strategies take time to develop and are very tedious to pull off, but become hard to stop once fully trained. Armsthrift could be fantastic for Donnel due to Helswath, for example, but that doesn't mean it's good for normal mode in general at all.

I think the same of clearing Lunatic+ with bow users as I do of clearing normal mode with a Donnel solo. Both make good use of Armsthrift, but are by no means evidence of the fact that Armsthrift is useful for the mode in general. Sure, bow users avoid Counter and Pavise+, and that's great and all, but it's incredibly tedious to get your units there in the first place (and not to mention, you conveniently ignored my argument when I told you that your own playthrough is PEMN). On the other hand, Sol + Nosferatu and intelligent, slow play allows you to effectively negate Counter, and it ignores Pavise+ as well. A Galeforce strategy allows you to ignore boss rush chapters. You also don't have to bother training the Avatar in the same way that you would train a handful of bow users at all--and that's why my strategy and the Galeforce strategy are superior to yours.

It's also worth noting that you conveniently ignored my entire argument about your playthrough being PEMN. You accused me of that when you said my experience with my playthrough means nothing, but you are the only person that I know of who has cleared Lunatic+ with bow users, so I am sure that most of your argument for Armsthrift's usefulness comes from your own playthrough. Yet your own playthrough is influenced by the RNG due to growths and so on, as mine is. So I am sure that your playthrough is a slave to the RNG--it is obviously not immune to it, and you would not deny this either. So why ignore the argument? It's pretty clear that according to your own logic, your bow playthrough is worthless, so why are you even trying to argue about it in the first place?

Here are the points I expect you to reply to next time:

1) That a normal mode solo with Donnel is similar to beating Lunatic+ with bow users in the way that both start off very tediously but make the game easier later on.

2) A playthrough that is much less tedious early on and still very easy later on--such as using Galeforce or Sol + Nosferatu, is preferable over the above.

3) Your playthrough is just as RNG reliant as mine, since we both rely on stats.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Chiki

[Randa]

Guys I understand you might not agree with what Chiki has to say, but now your just being mean. On to the previous points, technically every playthrough is only personal experience. On to Chiki earlier you said that by neccesary it wasn't essential. Well there kinda of the same thing. Have you ever used armsthrift in a casual run. It can be helpful, but it isn't the best skill in the game and again don't see anybody saying it is.

[Chiki]

That was kind of you, Randa.

By necessary, I didn't mean not essential for the mode overall, but necessary enough to say that it's significantly useful for the mode as a whole. I don't think it is because the two best strategies in Lunatic+ have no need for it.

Why is a theoretical bow playthrough bad? It's needlessly tedious to train your units up to par. It's a lot simpler to solo the game. Hence why I think it's inferior and not worth considering.

[Interceptor]

[...] other than the bolded part, which makes zero sense.

This is basically what I was talking about when I ticked those points off; someone with a working understanding of what "PEMN" actually means, would understand what I was talking about. You don't, and so you take it personally, because you take everything personally.

Here are the points I expect you to reply to next time:

I consider it nothing short of adorable that you think this is subject to your approval. If I intended to respond to your shiny objects, I would have already. It's not as if I had simply forgotten to.

Guys I understand you might not agree with what Chiki has to say, but now your just being mean. On to the previous points, technically every playthrough is only personal experience.

When we say PEMN, it's in reference to the RNG. It's a shorthand that means your specific results may or may not be what everyone else experiences. Clearly there is "personal experience" that is not subject to the RNG; recruiting Kellam in Ch3 without aggroing the bottom floor enemies is something that happens the exact same way every single time. If you have a conversation that goes like this:

"My Miriel got a ton of DEF and never died!"

"Well, her growth is only 25%, so that's pretty unlikely."

"But it happened to me!"

"PEMN."

... that's what it means. It has nothing to do with "invalidating playthroughs", or whatever the absurd notion was that Chiki got into his head.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Interceptor

[Scarlet]

By necessary I meant necessary enough to say that Armsthrift isn't overrated.

But not a single skill is actually necessary. By that logic, skills as a whole are overrated, because you can plausibly complete the game without any of them.

[Interceptor]

He said "necessary enough", which implies a sliding scale of necessary-ness. If you thought the question posed by this thread was ambiguous before, welcome to the post-explanation phase, where now it has a bonus layer of subjectivity.

[Scarlet]

That he did, and that's garbage. There's no thing such as "a bit necessary, but not quite" - something is either necessary, or it isn't. The closest thing I can think of that you'd call something between "necessary" and "worthless" is "useful". ...oh dear, it's a vicious circle.

People trying to argue points that nobody even made doesn't help.

[Chiki]

This is basically what I was talking about when I ticked those points off; someone with a working understanding of what "PEMN" actually means, would understand what I was talking about. You don't, and so you take it personally, because you take everything personally.

I consider it nothing short of adorable that you think this is subject to your approval. If I intended to respond to your shiny objects, I would have already. It's not as if I had simply forgotten to.

If two people are debating, then it's their job to respond to each other's points. It seems like you've given up the debate, since you didn't respond to any of my points. It's pretty obvious that I've won this argument now.

That he did, and that's garbage. There's no thing such as "a bit necessary, but not quite" - something is either necessary, or it isn't. The closest thing I can think of that you'd call something between "necessary" and "worthless" is "useful". ...oh dear, it's a vicious circle.

People trying to argue points that nobody even made doesn't help.

Try googling how necessary and you'll see that a lot of people use the two words together.

Mechanical removal of cerumen was necessary overall in 29% of the patients.

That's what one of the search results say. So it's necessary sometimes, but not all the time. There's a middle ground here.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Chiki

[Scarlet]

If two people are debating, then it's their job to respond to each other's points. It seems like you've given up the debate, since you didn't respond to any of my points. It's pretty obvious that I've won this argument now.

Except that repeating the same point a dozen times no matter how often it's proven wrong or irrelevant can't exactly be called "debating".

That's what one of the search results say. So it's necessary sometimes, but not all the time. There's a middle ground here.

Yes, something can be necessary sometimes and unnecessary other times. That doesn't mean that something like "a bit necessary but not quite" exists - that's still called "useful", which is not the same thing as necessary. Something can be unnecessary yet useful at the same time. Skills in this game are an example of something that is unnecessary, yet useful, and Armsthrift is no exception in this regard.

[Chiki]

Except that repeating the same point a dozen times no matter how often it's proven wrong or irrelevant can't exactly be called "debating".

Yes, something can be necessary sometimes and unnecessary other times. That doesn't mean that something like "a bit necessary but not quite" exists - that's still called "useful", which is not the same thing as necessary. Something can be unnecessary yet useful at the same time. Skills in this game are an example of something that is unnecessary, yet useful, and Armsthrift is no exception in this regard.

According to you, being snarky makes him right? But still, you're right. I don't think I'm right for repeating my points, hence I want him to respond to them so I don't repeat myself.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/necessary?s=t Look at definition 6.

necessaries, Law. food, clothing, etc., required by a dependent or incompetent and varying with his or her social or economic position or that of the person upon whom he or she is dependent.

Poor people don't need money as much as rich people do, though both still need money, etc.

Bow playthroughs need Armsthrift more than other playthroughs do.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Chiki

[Interceptor]

If two people are debating, then it's their job to respond to each other's points. It seems like you've given up the debate, since you didn't respond to any of my points.

That supposes that both people are well-adjusted and can stay on topic. If two people are debating property taxes, and the second brings up the other's SAT scores, you can excuse the first for not chasing that particular subject down the rabbit hole.

It also supposes that you and I are debating something, which, as I've said before, it's a concept that I find more than a little amusing.

It's pretty obvious that I've won this argument now.

Undoubtedly. Truly, you have a dizzying intellect. Perhaps you ought to put this on blast, so that everyone knows of your prowess.

That's what one of the search results say. So it's necessary sometimes, but not all the time. There's a middle ground here.

"Your Honor, I stand here accused of fogging up the discussion by choosing phrasing that's ambiguous and subjective, when asked to be specific. In my defense, I present a poorly constructed Google search, on the Internets, which shows that 1.2 billion people may or may not have made the same mistake. I rest my case. Also, your mother is a whore."

[Chiki]

That supposes that both people are well-adjusted and can stay on topic. If two people are debating property taxes, and the second brings up the other's SAT scores, you can excuse the first for not chasing that particular subject down the rabbit hole.

It also supposes that you and I are debating something, which, as I've said before, it's a concept that I find more than a little amusing.

Undoubtedly. Truly, you have a dizzying intellect. Perhaps you ought to put this on blast, so that everyone knows of your prowess.

"Your Honor, I stand here accused of fogging up the discussion by choosing phrasing that's ambiguous and subjective, when asked to be specific. In my defense, I present a poorly constructed Google search, on the Internets, which shows that 1.2 billion people may or may not have made the same mistake. I rest my case. Also, your mother is a whore."

Lol, you're still ignoring all the arguments I made. And I'm going to keep ignoring you until you're a decent enough debater to respond to them, as well. You're quite stubborn to not admit that you've lost a debate when you're posting simply for the sake of being snarky.

[Elieson]

Why don't you just Create a skills Tier list and organize it by "how necessary" each is, so we can all understand exactly what it is that you are thinking.

I think discussion has detracted from the "topic" and become more of a debate on the definition of the topic itself rather than the application.

Olwen, would you consider doing that? It'd accurately display your feelings towards the skill as "how necessary" or whatever it is, and gives users such as interceptor and myself a better understanding of where you stand on this.

Edit: don't make this tier list include your "complexity" ratings, as that will only lead to debate on the definition of Complexity. Instead, explain why Armsthrift is tiered as such and why it is/isn't useful in what you consider a "general" Playthrough.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Elieson