Chiki Posted June 21, 2013 Author Share Posted June 21, 2013 Once again your opinion ≠ everyone else What if I think growths is unfair? What if I think restarting after a death is unfair? These are rhetorical for you to understand the concept but I don't think it is working. He lost the argument because he showed you a poll where 1/3 people agree with you? I don't want to live on this planet anymore. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or most people believe it. In other words, the basic idea of the argument is: "If many believe so, it is so." "People", huh? Not only is this weasel-wording, but the contradiction is as visible as a sore thumb at the top of every page of the thread. It was your poll. I wasn't having a proper debate with him, was I? Only because armshift has no viable use to how you play the game "it's still good due to how it does in other contexts" I can't think of any context in which Armsthrift is good except grinding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZemZem Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 ITT: Let's insult Chiki to look cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shroudening Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 (edited) I don't know about you guys, but Armshift is like a dream come true for me. Much more reliable than the the starsphere from Shadow Dragon, since you can keep the skill. Units with high luck seem to never run out of weapon usage, which has so many more applications than just grinding... And there are clearly better skills too, so how could one call it overrated? plz don't kill me I haven't been playing the game for long Edited June 21, 2013 by Insignificant Organism Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 It's ironic, because I'm probably older than Chiki. But I've never liked debating. It's like taking Mafia, but replacing the fun with your ego. ##Vote: Tables Sorry, I couldn't resist. The difference between mafia and debate is that there's a host in the former who will kick people out of the game at regular intervals; thus, debating badly and dodging the point usually ends with a lynch of said person. As this is an open-ended question, and NOT a proper mafia game, there is no host to render such services. Besides, mafia takes some acting skill. Debate does not. Oh, right back to the topic. . . Because people consider it unfair. Who are you talking about, exactly? It helps to know the target audience and all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
algae Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 (edited) I can't think of any context in which Armsthrift is good except grinding. Convenience. You can play through the game without having to worry about replacing your weapons as often, and the fact that you don't have to grind Golden Gaffe or bullion to get the money for new weapons and forges is fairly nice. So, it's good in the sense that it limits the amount of grinding you have to do. It probably isn't too useful in your playstyle, but it's very nice to have for mine. Edited June 21, 2013 by Alg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comingsoon Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum You are completely misinterpreting what I am trying to articulate say. I AM NOT TRYING TO SAY "ARMSHIFT IS GOOD BECAUSE EVERYONE SAYS IT'S GOOD" it is good when money is a restricting factor. Using your application of argumentum ad populum "there are 24 hours in a day" that is wrong because everyone thinks so. You can't even use the term properly and oversimplify. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted June 21, 2013 Author Share Posted June 21, 2013 You are completely misinterpreting what I am trying to articulate say. I AM NOT TRYING TO SAY "ARMSHIFT IS GOOD BECAUSE EVERYONE SAYS IT'S GOOD" it is good when money is a restricting factor. Using your application of argumentum ad populum "there are 24 hours in a day" that is wrong because everyone thinks so. You can't even use the term properly and oversimplify. Uh, that argumentum ad populum was to Interceptor. ._. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constable Reggie Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 Christ on a cracker, it's like trying to explain to concept of swimming to someone who has never seen a body of water deeper than a puddle. Are you cognizant of the fact that you asked an entire forum for its opinion on a skill in Fire Emblem, you gave no parameters for judgment, the forum is filled with people who have different styles, and that these people are not wrong/degenerates for having different values than you? If I just blew your mind, put the word "sophistry" in your response. That will be the safety word. "In your opinion, who do you think is the worst character in the game?" "In my opinion? Ricken" "NO DAMNIT YOU'RE WRONG" Same thing, really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comingsoon Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 (edited) Quote Only because armshift has no viable use to how you play the game "it's still good due to how it does in other contexts" I can't think of any context in which Armsthrift is good except grinding. I will make this very simple to understand In my 0% growth run I don't find galeforce useful because I can't OTKO anyone therefore I cannot kite. Does this mean the skill is bad? NO "it's still good due to how it does in other contexts" OffT: Why doesn't [DASH(/)quote] work? When I use the bbcode it comes out as a quote box... Edited June 21, 2013 by comingsoon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donnel Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 Actually, I'm pretty sure people will agree with my view of better. For a skill to be good, it has to do well in a way that we consider meaningful. For example, the easiest way to beat L+. Count me out on the number of people that agree with your view of better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interceptor Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 (edited) I wasn't having a proper debate with him, was I? You also weren't, to my knowledge, eating a ham sandwich. What do these things have in common? Their truth or untruth is irrelevant to the point. You did say this: Actually, I'm pretty sure people will agree with my view of better. Which is the ORLY moment where you made the fallacy that you accused someone else of making. "In your opinion, who do you think is the worst character in the game?" "In my opinion? Ricken" "NO DAMNIT YOU'RE WRONG" Same thing, really. It's true, this is basically the same thing. Chiki makes a thread, asks a question with vaguely defined parameters, aggressively fights with people who didn't read his mind and/or agree with him. Although this thread is an even better data point than that one, since the basic disagreement is harder to argue about. There is really not a ton of room to defend a claim that Armsthrift is only useful when grinding. Edited June 21, 2013 by Interceptor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usana Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 I wouldn't say it is over rated. However, Donnel(or any other stupidily high luck character) + Armsthrift might make people go on about it more vocally than one might feel is warranted. But if you think about it Donnel as a lvl 1 mercenary is likely to have. . . something like 19-20 luck right? That is 38-40% chance right there. Sure makes it a lot easier to level him when your glass sword has a 40+% chance of not using up 1 of three uses when hitting tough enemies. And 50 renown nets you a glass sword so you don't even need luck to do that. Of course it is up to luck on how many times you can use it to down a tough guy. But with a bit of luck Ol' Donny levels rather easily(on hard anyways, but hard is rather easy so. . .). So for me its biggest advantage is in weapon rank. I don't like to grind so even in mid-late game not many have A ranks, let alone A ranks in multiple weapons. And B ranks are often just coming on-line for those who classed out to a different weapon type(like Donny) let alone for those with multiple weapons(though that is less important since you can always use your high rank against tougher opponents and finish off weaker ones with the glass). Anyways with Donny the skill will appear stronger than what it will usually be with most people. Though I have noticed that I replace Gregor's Short Axes far less often than I need to replace Cherche's Short Axes. And his luck is crap(30% chance(15 luck) as a level 9 Berserker). Really it just reduces the micro needed for the game as well as some aid for rare but powerful weapons and for players like me that is good, very good. Particuarly since going through the game you don't really break the 5 skill limit very early. So the real question is if going hero is if Armsthrift plus Patience is worse as you go through the game than HP+5 and crit +5. Personally if taking the Hero route without second sealing from an advanced class I would much prefer the Armsthrift and Patience. I guess there is also the axe vs sword deal going on. . . which may complicate things a bit. But still it is a solid skill if used right. Just don't expect it to god mode the game all on its own or to be an instant win button for you. Useful in the course of the game. But most useful in mid game before you break the 5 skill limit and while you have enough luck to actually use it regularly(unlike early game where the +5 hp might be more useful). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSND Alter Dragon Boner Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 (edited) For some reason, I always think that if Donnel is a normal growth unit, Armthrift would not get half the hype it got right now It seems to be yet another one of IS fanboy bait scheme Edited June 21, 2013 by I have a Dragon Boner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interceptor Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 If Donnel didn't have Merc access, it would still be considered a useful skill, if for no other reason than Gregor and Avatar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fush Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 The whole reason why there's been so much arguing is because of the thread's thought process; Chiki, when making the thread, was under the impression that people were using Armsthrift because "it's an amazing skill that is incredibly helpful to you in any mode". Chiki, thinking that this was what people actually thought of armsthrift, starting this thread asking if it is being overhyped. The problem is that there was no overhype of it to begin with, which is why there is nothing he was actually challenging when asking that question. Armsthrift is what most people here think of as a great convenience (emphasised) skill, that chips down weapon usage enough for you to consider it as a neat little trick that'll, behind your back, help you out a little while on your grand scale journey. Look at it like this; Galeforce, Sol and Luna are a trio of three big popstars who have sung everywhere. They're famous, and everyone loves them. Armsthrift is like their mid-level bank manager who just sorts out all these funds and donations and fanboys here and there, doing work behind the scenes. Nobody really appeals for him apart from a few select people, but he's still helping out quite a bit; not as much as say, their high-level bank manager. Y'know, maybe he's someone like Aegis or Rightful King. It's not the best analogy, but you get the idea. Here is what Chiki's analogy would be; Armsthrift is that one olympic medal runner who outspeeds all but a few of the other athletes around the world. But it's based on what was thought to be the truth; not what actually is. Therefore, Chiki is currently asking the question "Is Armsthrift a skill that is immensely helpful and is useful in any situation?". The answer to that is noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. He was thinking that the people would say "hell yeah" like he thought they would. It's like if popcorn is a cool movie snack, but somebody somehow manages to think everyone worships it. Maybe not that excessively, but still. why do I always have to back up my points with analogies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meteor Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 @Usana Donnell as a level 1 Hero will have a minimum of 29 luck, assuming you keep Aptitude on him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usana Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 For some reason, I always think that if Donnel is a normal growth unit, Armthrift would not get half the hype it got right now It seems to be yet another one of IS fanboy bait scheme Yeah I wouldn't argue that Donny is responsible for bringing armsthrift up front so that people actually notice it. To borrow the Fush's analogy, Donny is the inside source who lets everyone see just how much that mid-level banker actually does for you/can do for you! @Usana Donnell as a level 1 Hero will have a minimum of 29 luck, assuming you keep Aptitude on him. I meant level 1 Mercenary, so when he first gets armsthrift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadykid Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 Donnel hype=/=Armsthrift hype and yes, the people who harp on how Donnel is a god are annoying Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faye Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 @shadykid: Donnel on a no-grind run is certainly bottom tire, but I do think he becomes an excellent unit if you do a couple of skirmishes now and then. D8 Or have him beat up Mist/Raquesis/Moulder/Serra for easy EXP, I dunno. He's not worth the hype, but it's sad to call him worthless just because one doesn't want to take the time to level him a little. Getting him to level 10 is easy. Just for the battle model? Because they are identical to Silver weapons otherwise. My goodness, I leave the thread for like a week or so. 8U; Yeah, for the battle model, the Glass weapons are very pretty. Silver Weapons look boring in comparison (except Silver Axes). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 I don't mind grinding, but I perfer haveing infinite weapons at the cost of one skill slot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interest Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 (edited) I feel the answers given are between two extremes so I went for the middle ground. Yes, it's clearly fantastic for grinding because suddenly the cost to level up any unit with Armsthrift is a drop in the bucket at worst (assuming usage of Reeking Boxes and even if the weapons aren't unbreakable due to 50+ Luck there's going to be a good chance weapon charges will be saved). However, while I feel it's not the end-all skill, it has practical usage in situations where you might not want to use up your forged weapons, particularly forged Aversa's Night and so on for difficult situations. It also means that some guy who gets your Streetpass team can't just soak all your weapon charges for an automatic win (even though to be honest it would take a damn long time anyways assuming your Streetpass is properly equipped). On the other hand, there may be a situation where you may just need the utility from another skill (like a breaker skill for extra Hit/Avo) and you can either get away with the usage of Silver Weapons (or whatever you can easily afford). Edited June 22, 2013 by Interest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powtreeman Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 (edited) I like using armsthrift to move faster. It also helps galeforce to attack often. not to mention the prologue Edited July 3, 2013 by Narga_Rocks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fush Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 I like using armsthrift to move faster. It also helps galeforce to attack often. not to mention the prologue Armsthrift doesn't even make you move more and it's not availible at the prologue- wait why am I even bothering Is this a troll post? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elieson Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 Galeforce < Armsthrift A < B The question isn't "is Armsthrift more useful than other skills?", it is "is it overrated?" And based on this thread it doesn't seem overrated. It seems pretty much right where it should be Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadykid Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Galeforce < Armsthrift A < B The question isn't "is Armsthrift more useful than other skills?", it is "is it overrated?" And based on this thread it doesn't seem overrated. It seems pretty much right where it should be please tell me you're not serious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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