Is it for love, or perhaps something more?

[Vashiane]

Urgh, I still remembered that thing. I mean, its the same country that tried to invade them, AND you just killed heir king

How the fuck did that happen?

Truthfully, I find Chrom kinda generic and not suited for making difficult decisions. I understand that the Avatar is a very important friend/lover/whatever to him, but an exalt who thinks that it's a better idea to put the big bad boss to sleep for future generations to deal with instead of having one person finish him off for good? Remember FE10, where Elincia realized that she had to let Lucia die to give Crimea the future it deserved? In Chrom's case, it's not just the future of Ylisse, but the world. I don't mind Chrom lovers who see a lot in him, sadly I don't.

Agreed with the second post on Chrom's decision making skills. I chalk it up to Chrom not being a good decision maker under a time-constraint. He can think up decent, even great plans, but it takes him forever. And when he doesn't have forever, he throws stuff together, calls it a plan, and deftly defying the fact that in all reality, he's just winging it.

It's sweet of him, to care about his friend so deeply, but also a bit narrow-minded as keeping the Avatar alive seems to be the only thing he's passionate about. Do you even prioritize, Chrom?

I can see why he's a popular option though, I went for him my first playthough (well, not intentionally. Damn you chapter 11) and enjoyed the experience plenty.

He is? I only recall him having saved infant Minerva and taking his dead brother's name. But whatevs. I'm not saying he's a bad character, just not a favorite.

As for the comparision of Chrom to Elincia, I didn't think Elincia was actually able to decide anything at all in her case. Ike and company just happened to show up at the right time.

Not including his conversation with Panne revealing her fear of the dark (or maybe just eclipses)? Or Lon'qu mentioning that Gregor battled Basilio for the position of Khan? The fact that Gregor apparently makes spices and cooks in his free time? (Whee! I love a man who cooks!) There's a lot of little instances - not just for him, but for other characters - that add up.

Elincia had decided to let Lucia die for the sake of Crima's future. Ike just showed up at the right time to save Lucia. Compare her to Chrom who insists the Avatar doesn't sacrifice himself/herself when the future of the world was at stake.

Gregor is a cool guy, and so is Virion. Frederick is alright.

For Cordelia, IMO most of the pairings she gets over Chrom, but for a few she is merely settling. (Okay I only really got the feeling that she didn't get over Chrom in her support with Frederick)

Fanfiction is taking this idea and running laps with it. Make them stop, please. My feels. :(

Edited June 23, 2013 by Vashiane

[HeroMystic]

As for the comparision of Chrom to Elincia, I didn't think Elincia was actually able to decide anything at all in her case. Ike and company just happened to show up at the right time.

Elincia had to decide to let Lucia die instead of negotiating with rebels who were essentially terrorists at that point. After Ike and the Mercs swooped in and stopped the whole thing, she ordered the Crimean Knights to publically execute all rebels as a message to Crimea that none of that BS will be tolerated.

Elincia started off as a weak ruler who heavily relied on others (especially Ike), but she grew into a fairly strong queen that stopped taking shit from people.

EDIT: Chrom on the other hand is very idealistic, and it shows most of the time. It's a tragic flaw that's worth having, but the game never explores it like what RD did for Elincia.

Edited June 23, 2013 by HeroMystic

[ZemZem]

Know what? I'll jump in on this too. Gregor is fucking awesome. I love his badass smirk too and his teachings of love. He even throws Miriel for a loop and makes Lon'qu look like a bitch.

Gregor for best character in the game?

Fuck yes. He's dubbed 'Good Guy Gregor' for a reason.

[Sunwoo]

Pretty much what Vashiane and HeroMystic said. Elincia allowed Ludveck to cause rebellion in Crimea that led to Lucia nearly being killed, but Elincia grows during her character arc and her "flaw" of being too indecisive and merciful was a turning point in her character. Chrom's idealism doesn't seem to ever get him into trouble. Ever. And as much as I like Emmeryn, she was too idealistic and it caused chapter 9.

Edited June 23, 2013 by Sangyul

[Anacybele]

Elincia had to decide to let Lucia die instead of negotiating with rebels who were essentially terrorists at that point. After Ike and the Mercs swooped in and stopped the whole thing, she ordered the Crimean Knights to publically execute all rebels as a message to Crimea that none of that BS will be tolerated.

Elincia started off as a weak ruler who heavily relied on others (especially Ike), but she grew into a fairly strong queen that stopped taking shit from people.

EDIT: Chrom on the other hand is very idealistic, and it shows most of the time. It's a tragic flaw that's worth having, but the game never explores it like what RD did for Elincia.

I don't recall her telling the Knights to do anything at that point. :/ But whatever, it's off topic. You're right that even Elincia was a better ruler than Chrom (and she wasn't that great either, even at the end of RD. And I like her, so I'm not biased against her or anything) anyway.

Edited June 23, 2013 by Anacybele

[Mighty Kamina]

I don't recall her telling the Knights to do anything at that point. :/ But whatever, it's off topic. You're right that even Elincia was a better ruler than Chrom (and she wasn't that great either, even at the end of RD. And I like her, so I'm not biased against her or anything) anyway.

Elincia says this after the chapter has been cleared.

Elincia

The rebel army will be eradicated. We cannot allow them to sow the seeds of discontent among the people of Crimea.

Ike

That's the right choice. Would you consider contracting my mercenaries for the job?

Elincia

...No, Sir Ike. I'll leave that up to the Royal Knights. I'm certain this task will create anger among the people, and the Royal Knights may be resented for their role in it... But my duty as queen demands that it be done. The people will have to learn to accept that.

[Aquakat]

That's a thing that never gets explained, Tharja's sudden obsession with the Avatar. Now, if the Avatar could actually recruit people, then that would make sense - love at first sight... but Chrom's the recruiter. Although it would have been interesting indeed if Chrom was the one she fell in love with first, THEN switched her attention over. Hmm. Brainstorming.

I think something on the official site sort of explains this? I'm vaguely recalling something about that in Shadowofchaos's let's plays, where he translated some of the official site stories. I don't think it did much, but it was extra information not shown in the game, like why exactly Aversa's not in Chapter 11, despite being in the 'intro scene'.

As for Chrom's decision making skills, or lack thereof, I took his refusal as a combination of things. One was the (admittedly selfish, but incredibly understanding) motive of not wanting ANOTHER loved one (platonic or otherwise) sacrifice his/herself for the 'greater good'. Part of it is also just having faith in the future to find a better solution, which is a courageous, if not exactly smart, decision.

The decision to invade Valm (it's basically an invasion) is one I both don't agree with and do agree with. Valm is coming and once more soldiers arrive, that coast is going to be overrun. It's stated repeatedly in game that Walhart had many more men, and there's a LOT of a coastline to cover. Eventually, a portion was going to buckle and that would lead to the weakened continent to basically be swallowed up. Taking the fight to them is an unexpected move that allows them to surprise the enemy and not threaten their own civilians in the process.

That all being said, Frederick has the right idea of being wary about another war. Two years isn't enough to reconstruct anything, really, even with a lot of gold. If nothing else, the army is weakened. Personally, I think I would've waited a little longer before attacking, but maybe that wasn't really an option.

...I think I just spent way too much time thinking about that...

Edited June 23, 2013 by Kat

[Anacybele]

Elincia says this after the chapter has been cleared.

Elincia

The rebel army will be eradicated. We cannot allow them to sow the seeds of discontent among the people of Crimea.

Ike

That's the right choice. Would you consider contracting my mercenaries for the job?

Elincia

...No, Sir Ike. I'll leave that up to the Royal Knights. I'm certain this task will create anger among the people, and the Royal Knights may be resented for their role in it... But my duty as queen demands that it be done. The people will have to learn to accept that.

Oh, yeah, I remember this, but I thought Elincia meant she was having the knights arrest them all and throw them in prison, not kill them. But whatever, she made a good choice that time.

[Thor Odinson]

Gonna defend Chrom a bit here wrt what Cordelia sees in him. He may not be the most interesting character, but he's a genuinely pretty good guy and from an in-universe perspective. Boring character from our persepective does not automatically translate to awful person to date. And IMO the writers back at IS didn't do a good job with Awakening's writing as a whole and no matter how good the localisation is it's not going to save it from bad writing unless they take a ridiculous amount of liberties. Chrom's character could be developed more, certainly, but just because he's poorly written doesn't mean he might not be attractive from his similarly poorly-written universe characters.

Also gonna defend Sully a bit wrt feminine vs kick-ass thing (from a few pages back, I know, but I happened to land on that page so), Sully doesn't hate feminine people. She's good friends with Sumia, and she never sees her as inferior because she's feminine or anything. It's just not a thing for her. A lot of people think us more "masculine" women are doing it because we see feminine as weak. Sure, there might be some that do, but more often than not it's just who we are and not something we're forcing ourselves to do because it appears stronger or some bullshit like that, but people think we're only this way because they think we think femininity is weak. That's bullshit and if anyone thinks that they should be called out on their girl-hate. But at the same time, thinking us more "masculine" (in quotes because gender is only a societal construct) women being masculine because we don't want to seem weak is also bullshit. We just are what we are and people should accept that some women just aren't what society deems feminine instead of thinking we're all trying to act a certain way. We don't. Stop thinking we do. It really gets on my nerves when people think that. Just because we act a certain way doesn't mean we hate everyone who acts different from us. Really, categorising traits as masculine or feminine is in itself constraining.

Edited June 23, 2013 by Thor Odinson

[Faye]

I never said that the child abuse had to be forgiven or shed in a good light, just that it can be further fleshed out in order to make Tharja a deeper character. Look at someone like Karel: he kills people with no remorse just for the sake of a challenge, including his own family. But he's further fleshed out in his support conversations, primarily Guy's and their A support. Just the implication that Karel will eventually kill Guy, his student, when he doesn't want to, leaves a huge impact for the character. In SoS, you can see the result of what he's gone through. Now imagine they did something like that for Tharja, instead of playing everything about her for laughs/fetish appeal. Tharja abusing her child after some catastrophic event (again, I'm thinking it's because of something Noire contributed to that results in the death of the father) is completely in character for someone like her, but there's now that touch of empathy to why she does it and it's understandable, instead of coming off as a psychotic jerk who abuses children because why not.

Terrible acts don't need to be forgiven in order to use them to the advantage of a well written character. To take such a blind view and write them off entirely, regardless of how well they're used by the writers, is foolish, to say the least.

A well-written character can still be a terrible character. There is nothing to justify what Tharja is done. Once you abuse your own child, any sympathy or understanding reason they might have is thrown out the window.

I agree with this, but can we define what Tharja has done to Noire that can be labeled as child abuse? Far as I know, the worst she has done is put curses on her that gave her runny noses at night.

Even if the only curses Tharja used on Noire were "harmless" ones like running-nose curses, it's still an ultimate level of low to use your own child as a guinea pig for curses. Noire's father had tried to tell Tharja not to curse Noire, but he ended up getting cursed as well.

The second personality was made by (Future) Tharja's talisman in order to get rid of her cowardly personality. Present Tharja changed that though.

I get that Tharja is a terrible mother, which is clear as day, but none of it ever screamed "child abuse" to me. Seems more like people are filling in holes with their own ideas and writing it off as fact.

Not all abuse is limited to physical abuse. We don't know what kind of curses Tharja uses on Noire, what if she used painful ones too? Noire's split personality is proof enough of that, as well as her shy timid personality. People who are abused as children tend to turn out like that; as a victim of emotional abuse, I would know. It's not okay, it's never okay. And knowing what a horrible person Tharja is, I wouldn't rule out she abused Noire.

[Shengar]

A well-written character can still be a terrible character. There is nothing to justify what Tharja is done. Once you abuse your own child, any sympathy or understanding reason they might have is thrown out the window.

Its terrible from moral perspective, and I agree with that. But morally terrible character with well written background is better overall because we know how come they behave like that than morally terrible character by saying "hey I'm a terrible character because the writer says so!"

[Anacybele]

It's true that having a reason for being terrible is better than no reason (I should know, I'm giving reasons for why all the main villains of my fic are antagonistic the way they are). But Tharja still really creeps me out and I don't like stalkers. xP

[Constable Reggie]

A well-written character can still be a terrible character. There is nothing to justify what Tharja is done. Once you abuse your own child, any sympathy or understanding reason they might have is thrown out the window.

I respectfully disagree. I don't agree with taking such a binary viewpoint on certain actions just because they are reprehensible on the surface. For example, Nergal, with all the terrible shit he's done, still has a degree of empathy to him because of the subtle reveals of what he is and originally was trying to work towards, why, and how he ended up as he did. Does that make him a wonderful character morally? No, but you can understand why he did what he did and see him as a three dimensional person. IS could have easily done something similar with Tharja had they bothered to try.

Edited June 23, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Loki Laufeyson]

Also gonna defend Sully a bit wrt feminine vs kick-ass thing (from a few pages back, I know, but I happened to land on that page so), Sully doesn't hate feminine people. She's good friends with Sumia, and she never sees her as inferior because she's feminine or anything. It's just not a thing for her. A lot of people think us more "masculine" women are doing it because we see feminine as weak. Sure, there might be some that do, but more often than not it's just who we are and not something we're forcing ourselves to do because it appears stronger or some bullshit like that, but people think we're only this way because they think we think femininity is weak. That's bullshit and if anyone thinks that they should be called out on their girl-hate. But at the same time, thinking us more "masculine" (in quotes because gender is only a societal construct) women being masculine because we don't want to seem weak is also bullshit. We just are what we are and people should accept that some women just aren't what society deems feminine instead of thinking we're all trying to act a certain way. We don't. Stop thinking we do. It really gets on my nerves when people think that. Just because we act a certain way doesn't mean we hate everyone who acts different from us. Really, categorising traits as masculine or feminine is in itself constraining.

*Slow motion high fives Lumi* Did i mention that you are awesome today? Because you are awesome.

To the guy who said Gregor and Virion are the best written guys in the game:

Could not agree more. Gregor is so badass and lovable it hurts! Someday, one of my lady Avatars is gonna get with him just because "Gregor is on job!" <3

Virion is plain awesome and i really wished they had explored his backstory a bit more in regards to the Valm plot. Its implied Virion ran away in order to save Rosanne's people from getting obliterated. Yeah, he also ran to save his own ass, but that wasnt the only reason. The game should have explored that a little more.

Reggie, ever read A Song of Ice and Fire? If you havent, that series is right up your alley on terms of character development and how sympathetic "bad" people can be. An excellent character study.

[Mighty Kamina]

*Slow motion high fives Lumi* Did i mention that you are awesome today? Because you are awesome.

To the guy who said Gregor and Virion are the best written guys in the game:

Could not agree more. Gregor is so badass and lovable it hurts! Someday, one of my lady Avatars is gonna get with him just because "Gregor is on job!" <3

Virion is plain awesome and i really wished they had explored his backstory a bit more in regards to the Valm plot. Its implied Virion ran away in order to save Rosanne's people from getting obliterated. Yeah, he also ran to save his own ass, but that wasnt the only reason. The game should have explored that a little more.

Reggie, ever read A Song of Ice and Fire? If you havent, that series is right up your alley on terms of character development and how sympathetic "bad" people can be. An excellent character study.

I really wish some of the DLC maps were like that one game that was broadcasted with side story maps. Virion's escape from Rosanne would've been good for one of those. There should've been a map where you liberate Rosanne during the Valm arc, and Virion should've been a plot character during the Valm arc. It would've given an overall meh story arc a bit more to go on, especially since Say'ri is boring as all hell.

Edited June 23, 2013 by Kamina

[Loki Laufeyson]

I really wish some of the DLC maps were like that one game that was broadcasted with side story maps. Virion's escape from Rosanne would've been good for one of those. There should've been a map where you liberate Rosanne during the Valm arc, and Virion should've been a plot character during the Valm arc.

Totally agreed. It burned my bacon bad that there wasnt a map/chapter on that business, seeing how Virion pops up after the time-skip and is all "yeah this is a thing."

[Constable Reggie]

Reading is for chumps, so I'll just go watch the tv adaptation of it instead.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Reading is for chumps, so I'll just go watch the tv adaptation of it instead.

LOOOL awww. The show is good, but for full character study goodness, the books are where its at.

Oh wait..topic...

I think my next female Avatar will have to choose between Gregor and Stahl for a husbando. Manly Heavy vs Onion. Hmmm. Thats if Animal Crossing doesnt consume me...

[HeroMystic]

A well-written character can still be a terrible character. There is nothing to justify what Tharja is done. Once you abuse your own child, any sympathy or understanding reason they might have is thrown out the window.

You're missing the point. This isn't about justification, but rather understanding them. Many villians and antagonists have strong backstories that can show the motivations behind their actions, which makes them understandable. Bowser constantly kidnaps Princess Peach because he wants to marry her, Takaya in Persona 3 encourages the End of the World because his childhood was massively fucked by a scientist group and had a set amount of time to live, Faize in Star Ocean 4 attempts to destroy the universe because his home planet was destroyed and he felt powerless. You can disagree with their actions, but you can also understand their reasons behind it. One shouldn't treat characters as so black and white because you hate them.

Tharja doesn't have this luxury however, and honestly I doubt she does have a reason. She's an asshole because she wants to be one. I think she even says "I have a reputation to uphold" a few times in supports. I believe that is Reggie's point.

Not all abuse is limited to physical abuse.

Considering I've been in this situation and even wrote a report on it, I know this. However, it still doesn't click with me that Tharja was an abusive mother, even if she was a terrible one. One of the reasons being Noire and Present!Tharja gets along just fine without issues. Now, Future!Tharja is irrelevant to me as she no longer exists, but if Noire can get along with Present!Tharja, then Future!Tharja couldn't have been completely terrible, and if the worst Present!Tharja has done to Noire is give her runny noses, then I still stand by my position that people are filling in holes with their own ideas.

[Anacybele]

You're missing the point. This isn't about justification, but rather understanding them. Many villians and antagonists have strong backstories that can show the motivations behind their actions, which makes them understandable. Bowser constantly kidnaps Princess Peach because he wants to marry her, Takaya in Persona 3 encourages the End of the World because his childhood was massively fucked by a scientist group and had a set amount of time to live, Faize in Star Ocean 4 attempts to destroy the universe because his home planet was destroyed and he felt powerless. You can disagree with their actions, but you can also understand their reasons behind it. One shouldn't treat characters as so black and white because you hate them.

Tharja doesn't have this luxury however, and honestly I doubt she does have a reason. She's an asshole because she wants to be one. I think she even says "I have a reputation to uphold" a few times in supports. I believe that is Reggie's point.

I agree with this. Tharja doesn't seem to have a given reason as to why she treated Noire the way she did. But other "terrible" people, like Gangrel, have understandable motives for their actions. Gangrel is getting revenge for what Chrom's father did to his nation and crap years before and I think some personal issues also drove him to become Ashnard 2.0. I like him as a villain for this (though I'm not sure why I don't feel like recruiting him. I think I believe that he'd find more peace l if he stayed dead).

And my own original villains? Shigo took over another country and killed Bryan's mother because he was raised around a lot of violence and soldiers, and his twin sister, whom he respected and trusted, expressed that she thought he had potential and should rise through the ranks as a great warrior and general. He took this to mean that she wanted him to be powerful and all. Then a war started and Melora decimated much of the rest of the continent. The Meloran king, whom Shigo was loyal to, told him he could have Astryn, the country Shigo himself would go take over. Shigo develops into more of an anti-hero later on, but you get my point.

Royce is VERY bad and evil to the core. But there's a reason for this as well. Well, more like a few reasons. I haven't really explained him yet, but I will and I know the reasons already.

Isis, the main antagonist, I haven't explained yet, but like Royce, there are reasons for her villain status as well.

But characters/villains like Tharja or Walhart? I don't see why they do what they do. :/

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

TBH Gangrel kinda remind me of Andrah, which is pretty ironic

Mostly because I have not played FE9 and FE10

[Anacybele]

Well, I said Ashnard 2.0 mainly because Gangrel shares the same title as him. Mad King. xP

[Aquakat]

But characters/villains like Tharja or Walhart? I don't see why they do what they do. :/

For Tharja, there are always only guesses. I'd kinda assumed that such things were fairly typical for dark mages in this particular game. By that, I mean that perhaps Tharja was used as a test subject as a child herself? It's pretty heavily implied that at least some of the Grimleal/dark mages (I can't remember if she was affiliated with them; I'm assuming because of the dark magic) were bad parents (Validar).

For Walhart, it's world peace. I kinda wish I was joking, but it is. In the male!Avatar supports he states it more or less clearly. Conquer the world, have peace.

[Anacybele]

Oh. That's an interesting reason, to say the least. xP For Walhart, anyway.

But yeah, we can only guess for Tharja.

[Persian]

I pair my female Avatars with characters I like as a whole, not just for their look.

On my first file, I paired my Avatar with Gregor. Gregor is hilarious and his accent remember me of TF2's Heavy. And when he suggested to share a bed with me on our C-rank support, I knew I had to marry him.

On my second file, my avatar married Gangrel. I must admit, I do find Gangrel quite handsome but I like him mostly because he make me laugh, but there's also some times, when he's a bit more depressed, that I just want to hug him. I always had a thing for that kind of character.

Other male characters I wouldn't mind pairing my Avatar with are Brady and Kellam, both because they are quite funny, but they are also very sweet and they do anything to protect their friends and loved ones. Kellam remember me of a younger me with the whole "unnoticed" thing and I like how Brady look like a thug but he's actually very sensitive...

As for my male Avatar, I admit, I paired him with the girl I think is the hottest, a.k.a. Aversa. If I would have gone for personality, I would've paired him with Panne, but I wanted to pair Fem!Morgan to Yarne, so...