Low-manning: FE games encouraging small teams, and what could/should be done?

[Chiki]

Marcia didn't have high durability, but she was still able to solo FE9 after giving her an exp dump thanks to flight.

It's not just durability that matters. High move, flight and decent offense can matter too, because it allows her to skip a vast majority of enemies.

[Anouleth]

If it was like Tiki's Paralogue in Awakening then you couldn't rely on enemy phase since the enemies ignore you and only target Tiki. You either need the offense to kill multiple units from multiple directions each and every turn or you need to be able to form a wall at least 2 range thick to keep them from being able to target her. At which point they will target you.

So basically program the AI to recognize what its win condition is and have it make that a priority. So if the goal is flee the AI will basically ignore you and just run to its flee location. Perhaps if it can reliably finish off one of your units it would take time to attack, but otherwise it is all run. The Awakening DLC maps with the fleeing Risen would be an example of the basic idea(just imagine that you lose if even one gets away instead of not being penalized for the enemies getting away).

A Fire Emblem game where enemies don't attack you on enemy phase would be very different, but I'm not convinced it would be better. It's an interesting novelty for optional chapters, that's all, but it's not something very fun.

[Tables]

BEXP could be used to encourage larger teams with some tweaking, though, such as only allowing it on units at or below a specific level that raises with the chapter. That combined with steeper exp rate reductions at higher levels would probably go a long way.

I was actually considering this, and another thing alongside it, which is FE4 arenas. In a way, the two are similar ideas: Ways to get EXP outside of battle. FE12 had an arena idea as well I think? I won't pretend to know how that one worked though.

But basically, what if BEXP worked by giving every character, after every battle, bonus EXP equivalent to killing some level enemy multiplied by some factor (naturally the game doesn't need to spell this detail out, but that's how it's mechanically working). The factor would be determined in a similar way to how BEXP is determined in FE9-10. So say, beating chapter 4 of FEHypothetical in less than 5 turns gives every character EXP equivalent to if they killed 1.2 level 3 enemies. For each extra turn they use, it's 0.2 times that kill less in EXP. Adjust numbers until reasonable.

With something like that, everyone is getting some EXP - you're rewarded for doing well, and your undeployed units are still training up (think of this as those characters being involved in other secondary battles, and/or training), while because EXP is being gained everywhere, you're getting more bang for your buck if you deploy a larger army.

Also Fatigue. I had some ideas for seeing that again: Rather than making a character undeployable, it just starts weakening stats. So you can keep using a character if you're desperate, but you see them get weaker and weaker. My idea was, when your fatigue = your HP, nothing happens, but from then on, you lose stats proportional to your extra fatigue, up to 2/3rds of your stats when Fatigue = 2*HP. E.G. you have a character with 30 HP and 16 Strength. If he has 40 fatigue, all of his stats are lowered by 2/9ths (rounded up) and so his strength would get a -4 penalty.

[dondon151]

really, i think it would be much simpler if fatigue made a unit undeployable. since some people have problems with that (especially when you need to recruit a certain character and you don't have an S drink), one could make a unit unable to fight and use staves if fatigued, but still deployable.

[shadykid]

making a plot for a single chapter where you just hunt down nonaggressive enemies would be interesting

that being said, IS would probably screw it up

Edited June 30, 2013 by shadykid

[Scarlet]

Actually, the way Yggdra Union does it would probably work.

For those who may not know, in Yggdra Union, each commander as displayed on the map actually consists of 6 units (half that amount for mounted ones), and everytime that commander is attacked on Enemy Phase, it has one less unit available to defend itself with (up to a minimum of 2), effectively giving it a severe penalty to offense and defense. Yggdra union doesn't give you a lot of commanders to work with, but those you're allowed to deploy you actually need to make use of - having the same commander face multiple enemies in the same turn does work (due to superior stats) and is required to some extent to win, but exposing the same commander to too many enemies will cause it to get overwhelmed even if it has amazing stats.

[Usana]

A Fire Emblem game where enemies don't attack you on enemy phase would be very different, but I'm not convinced it would be better. It's an interesting novelty for optional chapters, that's all, but it's not something very fun.

I just want to state that I was hardly suggesting that the enemy phase would never have them attack you. Just that the computer would keep in mind its objective. And if the objective is 'kill Tiki/capture X' than they don't commit suicide by attacking you unless they have to. Obviously these would be special objectives and not the standard win condition(standard win would just be the usual kill everyone). Of course such an objective minded AI would likely be prone to gangbanging the lord characters since if they go down the computer wins. You'd have to be careful with your 'can not lose' units, because the computer would just love to gank them on you(however, lord targeting should just be preferential not a 'ignore everyone else deal').

Scarlet, you made me recall Vanguard Bandits which had something similar. Basically you had fatigue. Each type of attack/action used X fatigue and if your fatigue got too high you would become unable to move/attack/defend yourself. You also got to pick how you defended yourself. You could avoid(just dodge which gained least amount of fatigue), defend(reduce damage, had minor fatigue penalties but could not be used if attacked from the rear), counter(you attempt to deflect the enemy attack and hit them, used same fatigue as avoid, could only be used from the front, and had a low success rate), or you could attack back with any of your attacks that could reach(each of which would have varying fatigue costs depending on move power/utility). It was rather easy to overreach and end up destroyed by a unit much weaker than you. In fact a common strategy to take out bosses/super units is to fatigue them. Just use a lot of low cost attacks that won't do much damage and wear them out. Once fatigued they can't defend, counter, or dodge. Slaughter Time! Such a system needs balanced or else it gets abused like in VB.

[Irysa]

Actually, the way Yggdra Union does it would probably work.

For those who may not know, in Yggdra Union, each commander as displayed on the map actually consists of 6 units (half that amount for mounted ones), and everytime that commander is attacked on Enemy Phase, it has one less unit available to defend itself with (up to a minimum of 2), effectively giving it a severe penalty to offense and defense. Yggdra union doesn't give you a lot of commanders to work with, but those you're allowed to deploy you actually need to make use of - having the same commander face multiple enemies in the same turn does work (due to superior stats) and is required to some extent to win, but exposing the same commander to too many enemies will cause it to get overwhelmed even if it has amazing stats.

Whilst I enjoyed Yggdra Union, part of the reason this works for the game (both with regards to enemies and you) is bceause you only get one attack per turn, and general positioning and movement is far more limited. The entire game has a LOT of heavy emphasis on making every single turn really really matter. Precise positioning, timing, no reusing cards/skills, etc. Using your single attack per turn to the fullest, via your formations is such a big deal, and the enemies also try to always get into formation to offset the problem you're describing. They even reward LTC on every map with stat bonuses for clearing fast!*

I don't really see this working with the way Fire Emblem functions because unless we just pull how Unions work (depending on gender, units pool successive support in either an X or + formation around themselves), because otherwise the AI is going to try it's damndest to beeline a single unit all the time, and without enough chokepoints this isn't feasibly preventable. That and boss ganging will get even dumber unless bosses get buffed sigificantly. In YU, you can protect yourself from that effect by being in formation due to 1 attack per turn, but in Fire Emblem, without having a flat wall of units/using a chokepoint you are basically always going to be exposed on 3 sides, not even counting ranged attacks or canto shit that mounted units can do. It would ultimately end up not affecting as much as you want (penalities only severely kick in at 4 or 5 rounds, which a fairly average amount for a lone unit charging enemies on a single turn as it is anyway), or making the whole game take way longer as you slowly pull the AI out towards you so you don't get overwhelmed.

I think something closer to what you'd ultimately want would probably be a more developed support/bonus system, because ultimately that is by far one of the best reasons we already have in place for wanting characters to stay in formation near each other. Base stats, formula calcuations for avo/def and such, effects/skills/procs could be reworked to not only be "better" with more supporting units around but basically almost mandatory to achieve good reliable results. Hell make characters who are near each other get better growths? That in itself might sort of encourage babying I guess though...

tl;dr it could be to do with just different passive bonuses units get for sticking around each other and playing together, to the point of being highly important on harder difficulites to succeed. It wouldn't have to neccessarily be unlocked via supports, could just be flatline, could be tied to class, relationships between characters, weapons...who knows. It sounds a bit overcomplicated but idk, just musings. (random final thought I had, maybe doubling could become less of a big deal if we had a system of say where, Unit A attacks Enemy X, does damage, doesn't kill, Unit B attacks Enemy X and finishes them off, Unit A's movement gets refreshed! Might sort of incentivise Knights and other slower tankier characters to be more useful)

*I really really really want FE games to do this again, Rankings were piss easy to meet quota for but BEXP bonuses for clearing in X turns was neat. Increase the penalty on going over on your turns, maybe even just cut it entirely. YU gives you a free random stat increase to the unit that did the most damage that map -its a little more complicated than that but I won't get specifics-, which helps to encourage efficiency to even players who aren't particularly interested in optimisation.

Edited July 11, 2013 by Irysa

[CT075]

something SRW does is have your stats (particularly avoid and iirc there's one game that does this for armor [defense]) decay after repeated enemy exposure until the next phase (where it resets)

i would support that sort of mechanic

Edited July 11, 2013 by CT075

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

SRW Hit Decay really only works when it was implemented in L(Minus 5%, always stacks), because Z2 version is somewhat too lenient, while K still have an OP game mechanic that ridiculously encourages One Manning, and K has absurd attack power for its weaker weapons(Dann Basic does like 5k into 10k, and its EN free)

In L, OTOH the EN supply was really limited, and ammo weapons are cut significantly(unless your name is Mazinkaiser, because Banpresto's ability to ballance Mazinkaiser is about as good as FE's Mounts vs No Mounts Ballance)

There are a lot of stuff in SRW that will actually be amazing when put on FE format, but in a direct comparison, this is not one of them IMO

In FE, I imagine it would be -5 evasion until hit, +1 Damage taken per attack, which largely depends on enemy density, and runs a risk of 2 manning instead of 1 manning >_>

Edited July 11, 2013 by I have a Dragon Boner

[Rehab]

They could do something like, every chapter at base (or whatever they have as pre-chapter setup, if anything), force the player to pick some units to send on a mission (or on missions) outside the chapter, in the vein of the similar things is Final Fantasy Tactics Advance and Assasin's Creed, maybe play with the way they set them up such that some give lots of experience (with heavily diminishing returns for characters that aren't lower in level maybe?), and some require the units sent to actually be high level/have been used a lot (in normal play? in missions?) etc, and penalize the player somehow if they fail to meet the requirements.

If they really wanted to brute-force it, anyway.

[The Void]

I could see the mechanic CT075 mentioned not being a bad idea for FE.

Although, how much would the decreases be? And how many times would a decrease happen?

[CT075]

who knows

in the srw i'm most familiar with your avoid drops by 5% for each battle and caps at -200% but that's also a game where you can, at will, give yourself +30 hit/avo for the turn (well it's technically for a cost but that's irrelevant)

Edited July 21, 2013 by CT075

[LunaSaint]

You could generally override evasion decay by abusing Counter anyway. Granted, K's mechanics and balance were so questionable it's not really worth bringing that one into this argument.

Point is, stat decay = good, especially in a game that doesn't have spirit commands and the choice to evade/defend instead of counterattack.

[CT075]

i was actually referring to Z2 but Z2 is also easy as fuck so ???

[FEAnon]

The only SRW game where the dodge decay mechanic really made a difference was in Z1. Granted that's to do more with the fact that most units got exponentially better with the less HP they have due to Prevail.

Maybe if there was some sort of combination between dodge decay and fatigue then maybe low manning might seem less like the go to option for most stages.

[AnonymousSpeed]

Quick thought-

What about going the player a metric shit ton if BEXP. Giving them so much BEXP that if they focus on just a small number of units, they will cap levels stupidly quickly. This would mean that, unless you use a lot of units, you just sit on a massive pile of BEXP, so much that a character soloing the game will get every skill they can and run through every class, no problem. And because you get so ridiculously strong so quickly, you can make the enemies get very strong very quickly, forcing you to have a larger army. Using one unit, you would be able to put up a fight, an possibly solo the map if you're very strategic/lucky, but normally you will be worn down and die.

So, in the end you run an army of 10-14 incredibly powerful soldiers and the enemy is fielding about 30 soldiers who are powerful enough to wear down and kill any single unit in 2-3 turns. As such you need to field healers, tanks, back-row attackers, just a mixed force that relies on itself to survive, all of which you can afford to keep well leveled.

[dondon151]

that really defeats the point of having any level curve at all.

say that you start at L1 and all units cap at L30. 10 maps into the game, your enemies are L15, but you have enough BEXP to launch 2 units to L25. you're going to be curbstomping the game until the enemies reach ~L25.

[AnonymousSpeed]

I was thinking it would more go 'ten maps in you can have 3 units level 20 without an issue, but you're fighting 20-30 level 15-18 enemies who will slowly drag you down with them,'

This would mean you would need to use all that BEXP on more units so that you have a chance against the sheer number of slightly weaker enemies.

[dondon151]

why not have 2 units instead who are >L20

this just encourages more low-manning. it's like the pokemon problem.

[arvilino]

I've had an idea, what if after gaining each level in a chapter a characters EXP gain decreases exponentially until the end of the chapter? For example if it halved(including the minimum gain in cases like FE13) after each level up within the same chapter.

You wouldn't really be able low man as effectively as in order for a character to level up 3 times in a chapter as you'd need twice as much for the 2nd level and four times as much for the third. You'd be encouraged to use a larger team in each chapter as the units low man team won't even end up that much stronger than a large team.(This would also minimize the effectiveness staff spamming or other actions with EXP like dancing).

Edited July 22, 2013 by arvilino

[AnonymousSpeed]

why not have 2 units instead who are >L20

this just encourages more low-manning. it's like the pokemon problem.

Because 20 is the level cap, and seals aren't easy to come by in the first dozen or so chapters.

I've had an idea, what if after gaining each level in a chapter a characters EXP gain decreases exponentially until the end of the chapter? For example if it halved(including the minimum gain in cases like FE13) after each level up within the same chapter.

You wouldn't really be able low man as effectively as in order for a character to level up 3 times in a chapter as you'd need twice as much for the 2nd level and four times as much for the third. You'd be encouraged to use a larger team in each chapter as the units low man team won't even end up that much stronger than a large team.(This would also minimize the effectiveness staff spamming or other actions with EXP like dancing).

You makes Ests cry. And Donnel. And characters with a staff-locked base class. To name a few. Otherwise, it's not a horrible idea.

[shadykid]

Because 20 is the level cap, and seals aren't easy to come by in the first dozen or so chapters.

You makes Ests cry. And Donnel. And characters with a staff-locked base class. To name a few. Otherwise, it's not a horrible idea.

GOOD

and as for seals, you only need one to create a god unit in the earlygame

[The Void]

Characters like Donnel haven't really been handled that well through the series.

Either playable character growths are high enough that you'll be getting several characters who can get around 20 for multiple stats before promotion, enemies are weak enough that the lower growths of characters don't really cancel out any higher bases, weapons, joining time, etc.

Honestly, I think characters like Donnel would be better off with a Shining Force approach to growths. And maybe lower growths for other characters.

Edited July 22, 2013 by The Void

[AnonymousSpeed]

GOOD

and as for seals, you only need one to create a god unit in the earlygame

But in late game you would need multiple dirty units to survive. I admit its not a perfect idea though. I just miss BEXP