A Potentially Interesting Lore Theory Connecting FE4 and FE7

[Lhyonnaes]

Strap on your tinfoil hats, everyone. I hope you don't mind walls of text.

Before we get to the main point, let's lay down some important background information.

A fundamental basis of this theory is another theory, albeit a previously existing and fairly well-regarded one. The assumption that we will be making is that Elibe and Archanea are joined by the Dragon's Gate - and furthermore, that the Golden Age of the Dragon Tribe only began after the Elibean dragons arrived in Archanea. Thus, the Divine Dragon / Earth Dragon war does not start until at least around two thousand years after the events of FE7, as FE7 itself is around 1000 years after the Scouring.

For our purposes, the exact mechanics of the transfer through the Dragon's Gate are irrelevant. Similarly, the possibility that some dragons are native to Archanea and existed before the Elibean dragons arrived (which I personally doubt), is unimportant, as there is no indication from primary sources Nils and Ninian that the Golden Age of the Dragon Tribe was in progress before the arrival of the Elibean dragon tribes.

With the advent of Awakening, there is now a satisfactory "other side" to the Dragon's Gate in Archanea - the Ruins of Time. It fulfills all feasible requirements (sufficiently old, association with dragons due to Naga's Tear, mysterious warping powers, proximity to the ancient dragon city of Thabes), and there is no better candidate that has appeared. There is still the possibility, however, that the dragons of Elibe existed at the same time as the dragons of Archanea, and the Ending Winter was the catalyst for the Divine Dragon / Earth Dragon war in Archanea, with the Dragon's Gate leading... somewhere else.

While I cannot eliminate this as a possibility, I find it unlikely for several reasons. Firstly, Nils describes a land with few scattered humans, initially apprehensive or hostile towards the dragons, but with no long-term conflict occurring. This fits with what we know of Archanea at the time - it was not until 500 years after the Divine Dragon / Earth Dragon war that the first solid human political entity appeared on the continent. Furthermore, the Greco-Roman style of the temple shown in the CG is consistent with other structures in Archanea - though this is less indicative of anything, as temples generally tend towards such an architectural style in fantasy works. Furthermore, I am of the opinion that the Elibe -> Archanea theory makes for a more compelling narrative in general, so in the absence of any significant body of proof for the alternate hypothesis, I believe it is a perfectly reasonable conclusion.

With that out of the way, let us move to the main body of the theory. There is a very simple connection that can be made between FE7 and FE4 that establishes FE7 as an indispensable part of the central plot arc of the Fire Emblem games (FE4/5 -> FE1 -> FE3 -> FE13), and justifies the actions of a certain exceedingly important character in the Jugdral games.

To put it simply, Nils is Forseti.

To substantiate this claim, let's look closely at what we know about Nils and Forseti

Nils is a "young" (1000 or so) year old half-ice dragon. Whether or not he knows of his human heritage is questionable, but for all intents and purposes he seems indistinguishable from a full-blooded Ice Dragon. By the chronology we are using, he would probably be around 3000 or so by the Divine Dragon / Earth Dragon war - around about as old as Tiki in Awakening. He seems to have a fondness for music and is decently skilled with a flute, given that he disguises himself as a bard when on the run from the Black Fang. He is initially distrustful of humans, but throughout the events of FE7 he comes to gain a much greater respect for them, changing his opinion on the species that drove him and his kin from Elibe.

Of the 12 dragons who descended upon the crusaders at Darna, Forseti was the youngest. From his association with wind magic, we can assume that he is an Ice Dragon, as throughout the Fire Emblem series ice and wind magics are very closely associated with one another. Of all the dragons, he was the most passionate about helping humanity, and thus was largely responsible for the Miracle occurring. In the second half of Genealogy, he possesses Lewyn - a man known for previously disguising himself as a simple, flute-playing scarf-wearing Bard. Throughout the second part of the game, Forseti (in Lewyn's body) shows consistent and notable concern for children - not only is his first priority rescuing the child prisoners taken by the worshippers of Loptyr in their Child Hunts, but out of the three possible daughters of Lewyn that he can talk to, he only shows real empathy when Tinny recounts the tale of being tortured by Hilde as a girl.

Nils being Forseti explains many of the notable and curious aspects of the dragon's character. It explains why, alone amongst the dragons, he felt so passionate about aiding humanity, (to the extent that he would inhabit a human's body for almost two decades) because he alone has had his faith in humanity restored through the events of FE7. It explains why he is so passionate about saving the children from the dark mages of the Lopt Sect, because he has first-hand knowledge of the fear and hopelessness of their situation. The fact that he is the son of one of the most powerful sorcerers on Elibe might explain why his Holy Blood gives magical bonuses, or how a relatively young dragon was one of the 12 most powerful alive (And though Nils never gets a chance to use his abilities, remember that Ninian oneshots two Fire Dragons with magic immediately after being resurrected, which might be indicative of power that runs in the family).

Additionally, if you accept the Elibe -> Archanea theory, there is no legitimate argument against this theory. Sure they have different names, but "Nils" is hardly a name that a dragon would go by. It's also perfectly reasonable to assume that the dragon siblings were either given a "dragon" name and a "human" name at birth, or took pseudonyms when they were on the run in Elibe. Additionally, Fa is precedent for dragons going by different names when around humans that they do when around other dragons.

In the end, this theory ultimately matters little in the larger scope of the series - it doesn't redefine how we view any events or challenge our perceptions of the world. However, it offers an interesting connection between FE7 and FE4, and offers an interesting take on who is ultimately one of the most important characters in the series.

(Please feel free to dissect/criticize/otherwise disparage my argument in any way you see fit - I would not be surprised if there was some great counterargument that I am completely overlooking)

[VincentASM]

On the face of it, it sounds like a nice theory.

Although I'm kind of curious, where does it say Forseti was the youngest of the 12 dragons? It's been ages since I last played FE4 or read about the background details.

I'm also a bit bothered about the name changes, but like you said, I suppose there could be good reasons. For instance, it's possible Bantu could have been the fire god Salamander.

But yeah, I am wondering if the developers of FE7 put that much thought into the series lore ^^

[Lhyonnaes]

Eh, I doubt that Bantu was Salamander. They could probably find a better fire dragon somewhere, I would think (Though it's certainly possible that he is).

As for the info about Forseti, it's from the playing guide (http://serenesforest.net/general/designer4_2.html) - to quote, "Holsety was younger and held a higher level of good will and sympathy for the humans compared to other dragons. If he had the chance, he would even reside at Jugdral and protect the humans there. However, he was convinced by Narga that it was silly to stay, so he had no choice but to return to Akaneia. Still, his passion and will was inherited strongly within the wind magic tome Holsety. For this reason, the humans who inherit the Holsety tome inherit Holsety's will as well as his power."

Did the devs intend for this? That's always an interesting question, and one we can't really answer. I would ask this, however - even if they didn't intend for this to be the case, should that at all change the merit of the theory?

Edited June 28, 2013 by Lhyonnaes

[Acacia Sgt]

I don't think at 3000 Nils would look the same age as Tiki is in Awakening, since he's only a half-dragon and thus would age faster than her. So by that he wouldn't be consider young, unless they're referring literally to just the number of years alive...

[Lhyonnaes]

I don't think at 3000 Nils would look the same age as Tiki is in Awakening, since he's only a half-dragon and thus would age faster than her. So by that he wouldn't be consider young, unless they're referring literally to just the number of years alive...

Can we be certain of that, though? Dragon aging is really weird, and Nils and Ninian do seem to be indistinguishable from full dragons (it's unclear whether or not they actually know their ancestry). I also suspect that dragons would have aged even slower before they were forced to become Manaketes... but that's just wild theorycrafting on my part, with no real basis to it. Also keep in mind that Forseti still does have to be old enough to be of sufficient power to join the other 11 dragons - he's younger than they are, but he doesn't need to be the youngest dragon around.

[Randa]

Interesting idea. I can see how it would work but I would have to question wether or not nils would be willing to fight in another war or let one take place after the disaster that had occurred. In addition even if he didn't know that Nergal was his farther he still saw how ultimate power corrupted him and would question wether to entrust an equal power to a human.

[Chiki]

I like it, but there's some indication that FE4 occurred before FE7.

http://serenesforest.net/fe7/item.html

Filia's Might, Thor's Ire, Set's Litany etc.

[Lhyonnaes]

I like it, but there's some indication that FE4 occurred before FE7.

http://serenesforest.net/fe7/item.html

Filia's Might, Thor's Ire, Set's Litany etc.

As I said, this theory requires a certain interpretation of the timeline. If you wish to interpret these references as sufficient proof for a different timeline theory, go for it.

Personally, I am not convinced.

A better argument against this theory using those items, I think, is that the dragons who would later participate in the Miracle of Darna were well-established on Elibe before the Ending Winter and the Scouring - thus, Nils cannot be one of them. I will admit that it's a distinct possibility, but it is not enough to convince me to change my mind.

Interesting idea. I can see how it would work but I would have to question wether or not nils would be willing to fight in another war or let one take place after the disaster that had occurred. In addition even if he didn't know that Nergal was his farther he still saw how ultimate power corrupted him and would question wether to entrust an equal power to a human.

I think that seeing what Loptyr was up to would be enough to override such objections.

Also note what Lewyn's mother tells him when he obtains the Forseti tome - "Please remember the Wind Crusader flows like a cool breeze guiding all living beings to the path of peace. His way is never to be confused with violence."

Edited June 28, 2013 by Lhyonnaes

[Acacia Sgt]

Can we be certain of that, though? Dragon aging is really weird, and Nils and Ninian do seem to be indistinguishable from full dragons (it's unclear whether or not they actually know their ancestry). I also suspect that dragons would have aged even slower before they were forced to become Manaketes... but that's just wild theorycrafting on my part, with no real basis to it. Also keep in mind that Forseti still does have to be old enough to be of sufficient power to join the other 11 dragons - he's younger than they are, but he doesn't need to be the youngest dragon around.

Well, there is Sophia's support with Fa mentioning about it. In fact that's the basis of the C support, that Fa notices Sophia getting older but she herself still looks the same.

On the other hand, who knows if the Ending Winter had an effect such as altering that too, since Nils and Ninian were born before it happened, unlike Sophia.

[Lhyonnaes]

Well, there is Sophia's support with Fa mentioning about it. In fact that's the basis of the C support, that Fa notices Sophia getting older but she herself still looks the same.

On the other hand, who knows if the Ending Winter had an effect such as altering that too, since Nils and Ninian were born before it happened, unlike Sophia.

Sophia also is half dragon, but not a manakete - she can't transform. So there's that. I also believe that Nah is mentioned to have a normal Manakete's growth and lifespan.

[Acacia Sgt]

Sophia also is half dragon, but not a manakete - she can't transform. So there's that. I also believe that Nah is mentioned to have a normal Manakete's growth and lifespan.

Manaketes are the dragons that took human form, of course she's not a Manakete. By that definition Nils and Ninian aren't either, depending on... which form they had when they were born... but anyway...

Interesting, where in particular do they mention that?

[Lhyonnaes]

Manaketes are the dragons that took human form, of course she's not a Manakete. By that definition Nils and Ninian aren't either, depending on... which form they had when they were born... but anyway...

Interesting, where in particular do they mention that?

Hah, perhaps. What I meant, though was that Sophia is unable to transform into a dragon, even if she wanted to.

And while it' not explicit, in Tiki and Nah's support, Tiki both shows awareness of the differences between manaketes and half-manaketes and implies throughout that Nah will have a normal manakete lifespan. Given the topic of the conversation and the knowledge on the subject that Tiki demonstrates, I think it's a fairly reliable conclusion to draw.

(Also interestingly, Tiki does not seem to know of any half-manaketes previously existing. You can draw your own conclusions from this, but it seems to further imply to me that nobody actually realized that Nils and Ninian were half-dragons, in Archanea or Elibe, and thus that the differences can be largely unnoticeable. Alternately Tiki just doesn't know too much historical specifics before her birth, or Elibe and Archanea didn't have any contact at all. As I said, draw your own conclusions).

[Acacia Sgt]

Hah, perhaps. What I meant, though was that Sophia is unable to transform into a dragon, even if she wanted to.

And while it' not explicit, in Tiki and Nah's support, Tiki both shows awareness of the differences between manaketes and half-manaketes and implies throughout that Nah will have a normal manakete lifespan. Given the topic of the conversation and the knowledge on the subject that Tiki demonstrates, I think it's a fairly reliable conclusion to draw.

(Also interestingly, Tiki does not seem to know of any half-manaketes previously existing. You can draw your own conclusions from this, but it seems to further imply to me that nobody actually realized that Nils and Ninian were half-dragons, in Archanea or Elibe, and thus that the differences can be largely unnoticeable. Alternately Tiki just doesn't know too much historical specifics before her birth, or Elibe and Archanea didn't have any contact at all. As I said, draw your own conclusions).

Well, true. The reason to transform into dragon form is because all the energy that now can't be held within them has to be held into a dragonstone. In fact, as Nils explains after Victory or Death, they didn't even had a Dragonstone until after they came back to Elibe (and then they only had one, they both stored their excess power into it). That means that wherever they ended up at, they were able to maintain their dragon form through all that time.

So assuming that the gate does leads to Archaneia, they had to arrive at least more than a thousand years before their decline happened. Which is plausible since the Golden Age of Dragons lasted about 3000 years, so even if they weren't the ones who started it, there's still plenty of time in-between.

Well, I still need to read up Tiki and Nah's support, but I'll get on it right now...

[Randa]

Well we can also assume that tiki would have some gaps in her knowledge of the dragon kind though. Remember she was put to sleep as soon as she was born so she probably didn't even know any dragons beside Bantu and as such knew nothing of her kind.

[Acacia Sgt]

Alright, I've read the support now.

Well we can also assume that tiki would have some gaps in her knowledge of the dragon kind though. Remember she was put to sleep as soon as she was born so she probably didn't even know any dragons beside Bantu and as such knew nothing of her kind.

Not to mention, at least in their part of the world, Nah is the first half-dragon. So Tiki could just not know and assumes she'll live as long as full-blooded manaketes. After all, it's a much different situation than Elibe's, where Arcadia has had the following thousand years have them be common-place and take note about the difference between them and full-blooded dragons.

[The Void]

I say that the Deadlords and the morphs in Blazing Sword's last chapter were both created using methods tied to dragons.

Loptyr and Grima are both Earth Dragons, and Nergal did look into dragons and methods tied to them.

Edited June 29, 2013 by The Void

[sirmola]

I say that the Deadlords and the morphs in Blazing Sword's last chapter were both created using methods tied to dragons.

Loptyr and Grima are both Earth Dragons, and Nergal did look into dragons and methods tied to them.

We have also seen a similar effect in the puppets created by the demon stone in fe8, so it might just be something that anyone with absurd levels of dark power can do.