So, SF...

[dondon151]

you can't do "research" on fiction...

[Espinosa]

you can't do "research" on fiction...

On the more monumental fiction, you most certainly can (sometimes the research is more interesting than the work itself, Ulysses being a notorious example). It's not just fiction that one could opt to read (in fact I tend to urge everyone to waste less time with fiction when appropriate) however, which is why the metonymy that's formed between 'reading' and specific popular fiction bothers me even more in colloquial usage.

[Samias]

Some people are fast readers and absorb information faster through text. Just like there can be boring books, there are boring films that are agonizing to sit through and will lose your attention. But I don't get your point comparing documentaries to reading fiction, or that you're devaluing reading books as a legitimate pastime just because a lot of people would rather read the same best sellers as other people.

This is so off-topic.

Anyway, Shadow Dragon. Yeah, I don't like it. The biggest hurdle for me was that there were so many fewer options, to the point where it felt like a poor version of Advance Wars. I don't particularly care that a lot of FE characters are one-note. Some SD characters are zero-note. The sidequest requirements are bad. The graphics were bland and dark and desaturated. The character portraits are okay but their hair is all kind of noodly and a lot of faces are wonky. I don't care about having a high level of graphics, but stylistically this game did nothing for me. I had a moment of "oh god why are so many people on horses". Maps are huge and using the warp staff is practically a requirement if you want to have Marth visit villages and seize in a timely manner. Ultimately I picked the game up again and finished it, and it wasn't HORRIBLE, but it's still my least favourite Fire Emblem game I've played the whole way through. However, with Binding Blade's translation the way it currently is, I would probably replay SD over that at least if I had to play a game with footie-unfriendly maps.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Samias

[Blademaster!]

I liked both, and I think I spent more time playing FE11 than any of the GBA games. Reclassing was a fun mechanic that allowed for multiple types of playthroughs. Then again, I like every FE but FE1 because it's too archaiac compared to the rest of the series.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Blademaster!

[Phoenix Wright]

Sometimes I feel a sort of short-lived envy for people who are used to reading litariture. It makes me seem rather incompetent when it comes to arguing because they seem to have a rather vast arsenal of weaponry, when it comes to words.

Although that's something my parents should've said in the first place, "you should read because it's some form of entertainment through visualized through your imagination", something I didn't know until recently (about 2 years ago). Reading has always been a chore, forced by my parents, and that I never really understood the meaning of...

did it also have something to do with where you lived (or are currently living)? when i was an inner city kid, the accepted culture was that no one reads books. why should we? there's music and television already. plus only "nerds" read.

this screwed with me after i moved. not only did that culture follow me into my new home, but now everyone around me read all the time, making it all a little intimidating. something that i was never told was that the ability to imagine for yourself entire casts of characters in a world not like your own is actually quite difficult. it takes practice, and you get better at it the more you do it. i'm pretty sure that my representation of Ichabod Crane from "The Legend of Sleepy Hollow" is overly cartoonish because i don't flex my imagination muscle enough.

[Trickster]

Wow this topic can't just stay..... well on topic.

Anyway Shadow dragon is a fine game, but not as good as the rest of the series.

[Chiki]

you can't do "research" on fiction...

Lol what? Of course you can. What about all the research done on Shakespeare's work?

[Constable Reggie]

It's very unlikely for a story which is grand to not be deep. I can't think of any cases in which that is so, but I can think of many contrary cases; ASOIAF is one of them.

Horace's original claim was that people shouldn't be playing Fire Emblem games for their story. It's a general statement, so it applies to the population as a whole.

I think a much better way to disprove this claim, rather than just talk about how deep the story is, is to consider what people in general think--as Horace's statement is too a general statement. To suggest that one should point to the story itself and talk about how deep it is is itself flawed reasoning, because one has already admitted that x is subjective--if one has already admitted x is subjective, why should they talk about their own subjective opinions on a game, and point to, for example, Ashera turning everyone into stone? It doesn't make much sense. You can't argue that something is deep in general and also say that it's subjective.

Just because you think Ashera turning people into stone is deep, doesn't mean others do: it's subjective and you can't use your own subjective reasoning for the general population's views.

If you want to convince someone that a story may be deep for them, then you have to show them what others think. Showing them the opinions of the creators of the game is just one step--but it isn't enough, because the creator of Teletubbies may think his story is deep when it isn't--but you also have to show them the opinions of others. If a sizable portion of the general population finds it deep, then yes. But one person's subjective ramblings on parts of the story doesn't mean anything.

I'm not sure where you're getting this grand=deep thing. While it may be true that some grand stories also have depth to them, this is not the standard or anything. World War Z (the book), 2012, the Star Wars prequels, etc are all grandiose stories, yet not very deep.

If you find some critical analysis of Radiant Dawn's story, I'm all for it, but until then all we have are a) interviews from the developers themselves about their intentions, b) reviews and c) user opinions and critique of the story. Why is it that only a is allowed? Are b and c not considered part of the general population? You gotta understand that this is an internet forum dedicated to a somewhat obscure game series. We are likely the biggest part of the general population in regard to the depth of Fe games' stories. If you want to convince someone about something, especially something as obscure as the current topic, you explain what you think about it, your reasoning behind it, and evidence supporting your reasoning. If it's a well supported argument, I don't see why it shouldn't be considered. Throwing around statistics and interviews and shit doesn't mean anything.

You can't use a mathematical equation to determine if something is deep or not. You need to determine that yourself, whether it's by your own experiences with the story, or whether its by rational arguments by others.

[Phoenix Wright]

It's very unlikely for a story which is grand to not be deep. I can't think of any cases in which that is so...

I personally found Homer's Odyssey to be rather shallow. I liked it, but it certainly wasn't deep.

I feel the same way about FE10. There were bits and pieces that had potential for the story to be deep (Lehran, BK, etc.), but the story as a whole was not very deep. FE9 set it up, FE10 didn't finish it as well as it could have.

Wow this topic can't just stay..... well on topic.

Anyway Shadow dragon is a fine game, but not as good as the rest of the series.

The topic doesn't really belong here in the first place, it belongs in the DS games section.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Phoenix Wright

[Junkhead]

Some people are fast readers and absorb information faster through text. Just like there can be boring books, there are boring films that are agonizing to sit through and will lose your attention. But I don't get your point comparing documentaries to reading fiction, or that you're devaluing reading books as a legitimate pastime just because a lot of people would rather read the same best sellers as other people.

This is so off-topic.

You know he's not wrong. You just can't expect most movie producers to make the movies exactly how the book reads, or the way you picture it in your mind.

This is so off-topic.

Very convenient to mention it after stating your opinion on the subject. -_-

did it also have something to do with where you lived (or are currently living)? when i was an inner city kid, the accepted culture was that no one reads books. why should we? there's music and television already. plus only "nerds" read.

this screwed with me after i moved. not only did that culture follow me into my new home, but now everyone around me read all the time, making it all a little intimidating. something that i was never told was that the ability to imagine for yourself entire casts of characters in a world not like your own is actually quite difficult. it takes practice, and you get better at it the more you do it. i'm pretty sure that my representation of Ichabod Crane from "The Legend of Sleepy Hollow" is overly cartoonish because i don't flex my imagination muscle enough.

I was never one to follow what others did, and that hasn't changed much now. If anything, it was just me being poorly aknowledged as to what reading actually implied, when I was made believe it was but a chore meant as a mental excersise, rather than the possibility of it being another form of entertainment held in your mind.

It's only as of late that I started appreciating things like this, because of how much I started to appreciate finding a way to absorb myself out of boring reality.

[Faye]

I don't like FE11 and FE12 because not every character has official art. >n> How am I supposed to draw fanart if only a handful of characters get official art? Plus, they made Marth FUGLY AS FUCK in Shadow Dragon. Look at that official art. Muscles. GROSS. Manly!Marth is a disgusting abomination, and it shouldn't exist. He looks SLIGHTLY better in FE12...slightly. i'mnotspoiledbyMeleeandBrawlwheredoyougetthatidea

Also, forced Caeda/Marth. D8 WHYYYYYY. I despise 90% of canon pairings, especially when I prefer them to be with someone else.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

I gonna say here that Marth x Caeda is better than the rest of the couple in the series

Other than like Harken x Isa

Edited August 15, 2013 by Salesmaster MU

[RJWalker]

Eh, I like Marth's appearance far more in SD. Everything else is mostly horrible. Especially Smash Brothers. Goddamn he looks awful in those games.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

SD Marth in OA looks like a Pirate >_>

He should change his name into YAAAARRRRRTTTTHHHH

[Leinex]

I don't like FE11 and FE12 because not every character has official art. >n> How am I supposed to draw fanart if only a handful of characters get official art? Plus, they made Marth FUGLY AS FUCK in Shadow Dragon. Look at that official art. Muscles. GROSS. Manly!Marth is a disgusting abomination, and it shouldn't exist. He looks SLIGHTLY better in FE12...slightly. i'mnotspoiledbyMeleeandBrawlwheredoyougetthatidea

Also, forced Caeda/Marth. D8 WHYYYYYY. I despise 90% of canon pairings, especially when I prefer them to be with someone else.

Technically, you do need some muscle to wield a sword...and any other non-magic based weapon.

Your complaints consisted of lack of character art, Marth's design, and a pairing being canon. Have you even played either of the games? xD

[1% critted]

SD Marth in OA looks like a Pirate >_>

He should change his name into YAAAARRRRRTTTTHHHH

Or to Mars

[Faye]

Technically, you do need some muscle to wield a sword...and any other non-magic based weapon.

Your complaints consisted of lack of character art, Marth's design, and a pairing being canon. Have you even played either of the games? xD

If male characters need muscle to wield weapons, then female characters should, too. :/ Yet I can't think of a single woman off the top of my head who at least has visible muscle. So making Marth look ugly and manly for no good reason is not because of weapon-wielding.

I did try to play it once, but it was just so BORING. 8U I can't remember if I made it past at least Chapter 3 of SD. When I decided to read about the game, I decided it wasn't worth playing. And I started an FE12 file, but I'm too lazy to play it.

[Leinex]

If male characters need muscle to wield weapons, then female characters should, too. :/ Yet I can't think of a single woman off the top of my head who at least has visible muscle. So making Marth look ugly and manly for no good reason is not because of weapon-wielding.

I did try to play it once, but it was just so BORING. 8U I can't remember if I made it past at least Chapter 3 of SD. When I decided to read about the game, I decided it wasn't worth playing. And I started an FE12 file, but I'm too lazy to play it.

What about Awakening's Flavia? I see muscle on her.

I think they made him look manly because he was getting a lot of flak for looking too girly in SSB. Truth be told, I'd rather have him be a pretty boy, lol.

Oh...Well, you should at least play FE12 before you complain about it. There's a lot more characterization there than in FE11.

[1% critted]

My only playthrough of SD I did was of H5. And the DSFE gameplay was the only thing that kept me going.

[shadykid]

FE12 Marth looked the best, what is this

so the complaints are lack of stuff for fanart, subjective character design, and a canon pairing

that's even worse

[Phoenix Wright]

yeah, he actually looked like a soldier instead of a danseur. i actually have this complaint with the females too. flavia looks like a soldier to me, but tharja? olivia?

[dondon151]

shirow masamune's art has a lot of proportional problems, but his OA of marth is excellent.

[-Cynthia-]

Shadow Dragon's plot and characters are extremely minimal, the graphics are kinda ugly IMO, and the gaiden requirements are weird, but the gameplay is also pretty questionable. Most of it revolves around abusing forged effective weapons due to a lack of enemy variety (well other than the RNG based bosses in the early chapters) and 100% Seize objectives lack variety as well. Being able to visit villages only with Marth also annoys me.