PAIRINGS The Pairing Thread

[ckc22]

Chrom!Cynthia x Virion!Yarne!Morgan

Also, I'm guessing Virion!Yarne's best class is still going to be Berserker. Tbh, I rarely used Yarne back in the day so I'm having trouble thinking of a skillset. LimitBreaker/Aggressor/Axefaire/?/? is what I have right now.

Any reason you're pairing Cynthia with Morgan instead of Lucina?

Crunching some numbers I like the idea of

str/def virion!yarne!morgan berserker lb/gf/agg/axefaire/(luna vs vengeance vs ignis)

sumia!lucina sniper lb/gf/ds+/aether/luna

Which gives you a double gale pair that can switch back and forth and both halves of the pair will have 100% Dualstrike and 100% chance of doubling. Morgan will have high enough skill to forgo hitrate20 and still hit 220 hit as long as the weapon has a hit of 80.

For Virion!Yarne probably zerker lb/agg/axefaire/as2/hitrate20 unless you use a more specialized build and pair him with someone to get another 100% DS pair.

Edited February 20, 2015 by ckc22

[Vascela]

@Czar

I'm the one that did the 100% consistent 9 unit Chromatar sweep for secret route. Any variation that uses MaMU currently needs to to be done after chapter 13 (as opposed to FeMU who can start prepping as soon as you get Olivia).

The only reason you would use children would be for novelty if you wanted a 100% consistent setup (which also doesn't use any DLC to boot).

[zoned out]

I thought I would be wasting use of Lucina's DS+ skill give how high that Virion!Yarne!Morgan's skill would be. The way I saw it was that Lucina and Cynthia have almost identical class sets sans lord>g.lord and could work for Morgan. Wouldn't pairing Lucina with someone with a lower skill mod be a better use of her if I'm going for dual strikes?

Although, I really like that 100% DS and 100% doubling pairing you suggested.

[ckc22]

I thought I would be wasting use of Lucina's DS+ skill give how high that Virion!Yarne!Morgan's skill would be. The way I saw it was that Lucina and Cynthia have almost identical class sets sans lord>g.lord and could work for Morgan. Wouldn't pairing Lucina with someone with a lower skill mod be a better use of her if I'm going for dual strikes?

Although, I really like that 100% DS and 100% doubling pairing you suggested.

So Czar knows a whole lot more about building around 100% DS than I do, but here are some of my thoughts:

Optimizing for DS pairs changes things quite a bit from cookie cutter pairings/skill builds. I generally make sure I have a few pairs who can do it but don't try and make every pair hit it.

Essentially you need to hit 160 combined skill for an S ranked couple to get a 100% DS rate. (this only has to be 120 in a DS+ couple).

So when you take away the basics: lb/rallies/tonics thats a solid 44 points that's always there, meaning between base/mods/skills/pairup you need to hit 116. The highest boost to skill is an assassin which between base/pairup bonus provides 55 skl (hero gives 54). The highest base skill your unit benefiting from pairup would get would be 48 (assassin/sniper). This means that you still need +13 from mods/skills. And this means you'll have lots of ass/snipe/hero units (not that those are bad classes).

I think the reason lots of people like lucina x mamu or lucina x mamorgan is because DS+ means that you can hit 100% DS with a MUCH wider array of class combos, and no one has more options than mamu/morgan.

So I think if I weren't pairing lucina and morgan and aiming for more DS+ I'd do something like (I didn't look at speed calcs for these):

sniper chrom!cynthia x skl/def assassin virion!yarne!morgan +13 from mods

skl/def ass/sniper femu x virion!yarne assassin +9 from mods (In this case since yarne is a hard support I'd probably pile the skl2/as2 onto him in back).

Lucina x someone for another pair.

Chrom x sumia for another

There's obviously some wiggle room in changing classes a bit based on as2/skl2 - but it takes up skill slots.

Sidenote: Also this is making me want to do a Femu optimized file haha... This Fire Emblem If announcement has really thrown a kink into my game schedule.

Edited February 20, 2015 by ckc22

[Kamui vi Britannia]

That Chrom!Cynthia x Yarne!Morgan pair of your's is ridiculously wasteful. I too have a 100% DS team, and while it's not as good or efficient as Czar's; one of the things that is essential is that when you have a unit with such high skill, you pair with a unit with low skill, just enough to get 100%.

[ckc22]

That Chrom!Cynthia x Yarne!Morgan pair of your's is ridiculously wasteful. I too have a 100% DS team, and while it's not as good or efficient as Czar's; one of the things that is essential is that when you have a unit with such high skill, you pair with a unit with low skill, just enough to get 100%.

I'm don't think they're trying for a 100% DS team - Just that in this instance its super easy to 2 100% ds pairs out of virion!yarne!morgan and lucina separately. I think I personally prefer the sniper/zerker 100%ds build myself which is what I'd likely do in my femu path, but I'm still crunching some numbers and picking out fathers.

Edited February 20, 2015 by ckc22

[Kamui vi Britannia]

Sorry, I might have misconstrued your earlier post. However, even if you are not going for a 100% DS team, you would get more easy 100% DS pairs by simply not pairing Yarne!Morgan and Lucina: Lucina gets a "free" 100%, so in general a low skill unit like Gerome is preferred for Sniper x Berserker. You could still do a Sniper x Hero pair with Cynthia and Morgan for 75 spd and 100% DS.

[spnc2217]

How do you guys feel about this gamefaqs sentiment:

"You are better off not running a proc than using a non-Vengeance damage booster."

[ckc22]

Sorry, I might have misconstrued your earlier post. However, even if you are not going for a 100% DS team, you would get more easy 100% DS pairs by simply not pairing Yarne!Morgan and Lucina: Lucina gets a "free" 100%, so in general a low skill unit like Gerome is preferred for Sniper x Berserker. You could still do a Sniper x Hero pair with Cynthia and Morgan for 75 spd and 100% DS.

Yeah I was confused on if you were talking to me or zoned. That's what I recommended in my 2nd post essentially.

Although I think I'd take Laurent - cause then you switch between a vvds pair and a sniper/zerker pair.

Edited February 21, 2015 by ckc22

[Vascela]

How do you guys feel about this gamefaqs sentiment:

"You are better off not running a proc than using a non-Vengeance damage booster."

Consistency. The difference between 99% and 100% is a larger difference than any% between 1% and 99%. Perfect replication.

[ckc22]

Consistency. The difference between 99% and 100% is a larger difference than any% between 1% and 99%. Perfect replication.

So this means that any unit without vengeance shouldn't be fielded as an attacking pair?

Do you think Femu x Chrom is an optimal pairing then?

[Vascela]

So this means that any unit without vengeance shouldn't be fielded as an attacking pair?

Do you think Femu x Chrom is an optimal pairing then?

There isn't a file that exists where I cannot 100% Apo; permanent choices don't matter. FeMU x Chrom is the most applicable, seeing as how it could be argued as the quickest way to complete the game (where time is a factor, which it really isn't). FeMU x Chrom also lets you do a 9 unit clear DLC-less as opposed to other setups (be it including DLC for a 4 man, or tying other 9 unit clears).

[ckc22]

There isn't a file that exists where I cannot 100% Apo; permanent choices don't matter. FeMU x Chrom is the most applicable, seeing as how it could be argued as the quickest way to complete the game (where time is a factor, which it really isn't). FeMU x Chrom also lets you do a 9 unit clear DLC-less as opposed to other setups (be it including DLC for a 4 man, or tying other 9 unit clears).

There's a difference between challenge runs and team optimization...

[Vascela]

There's a difference between challenge runs and team optimization...

It's not really a challenge. Literally every file can 100% Apo as soon as the gate opens regardless of any player choice.

[ckc22]

It's not really a challenge. Literally every file can 100% Apo as soon as the gate opens regardless of any player choice.

Which is nice and all... but I feel like you're missing the point of this thread/the spirit of optimizing children.

[Czar_Yoshi]

@Czar

I'm the one that did the 100% consistent 9 unit Chromatar sweep for secret route. Any variation that uses MaMU currently needs to to be done after chapter 13 (as opposed to FeMU who can start prepping as soon as you get Olivia).

The only reason you would use children would be for novelty if you wanted a 100% consistent setup (which also doesn't use any DLC to boot).

Oh, OK. I took "one pair" as "two units deployed", but having additional utility units definitely makes it possible.

Wouldn't pairing Lucina with someone with a lower skill mod be a better use of her if I'm going for dual strikes?

Only if you're going for as many 100% DS pairs as possible (which is really just something I did for fun once). Otherwise the best use of her free 100% DS is to pair her with whoever has the best DSes. Avatar-M is good here thanks to decent Str potential and Berserker/Hit+20 with the added bonus of Aether on Morgan, Virion/Stahl!Yarne are good for similar reasons if Avatar is busy elsewhere, and 3rd gen Morgan offers much higher Str mods at the cost of making his GF pretty flimsy. Gerome is also doable to bug AC for high Str mods if his Hit can be patched up, but he'll usually wind up weaker than Yarne.

How do you guys feel about this gamefaqs sentiment:

"You are better off not running a proc than using a non-Vengeance damage booster."

I hope they meant running no proc and a hard damage booster, because otherwise that makes no sense.

Anyway, it depends on the situation. I've done both before and both ways have merits, but playing with procs + cut-ins is certainly more fun.

It's not really a challenge. Literally every file can 100% Apo as soon as the gate opens regardless of any player choice.

...Keeping in mind that player choice and player skill are completely separate.

Someone who knows what they're doing can make leeway for aesthetics anywhere (even my super-tight 100% DS team is loaded with it). Someone who doesn't, can't.

Which is nice and all... but I feel like you're missing the point of this thread/the spirit of optimizing children.

Actually, its point is centralizing what would otherwise be hundreds of "how do I..." threads. Optimization just happens as a result, even though it's not really needed for anything.

Edited February 21, 2015 by Czar_Yoshi

[Vascela]

Which is nice and all... but I feel like you're missing the point of this thread/the spirit of optimizing children.

I don't think Apo should be considered regarding optimization; it goes against the basic definition. Any pairs made to be "optimal" don't outperform the completion of the map. No pairings get you to 101% consistency (surely you agree with that). Min/max'ing at its best will perform equal. At its worst will perform sub 100%. The "optimized" is getting outperformed by the "unoptimized."

There's a difference between "here's a given set of conditions, I want to be able to accomplish this certain task. I will make the given sacrifices to complete this goal" and "here's an optimized set of player choices that outperform others." Min/max is good and all, but you need to make sure to specify what you want to target (chapter goal, rta, LTC, streetpass specific setup, etc).

[ckc22]

Actually, its point is centralizing what would otherwise be hundreds of "how do I..." threads. Optimization just happens as a result, even though it's not really needed for anything.

Agreed. There's just a big difference between "making all the children as good as possible" and "vengeance is the only good proc because all that matters are 100% reproducible runs"

[Vascela]

Agreed. There's just a big difference between "making all the children as good as possible" and "vengeance is the only good proc because all that matters are 100% reproducible runs"

The goal the game hands you is to complete the map. I'd find it very difficult for you to interpret that goal in a different way.

Now if you add on a specific challenge/limitation to it (such as no rallies, complete in 6 turns, complete with lowest possible units), then that can be quantified in a min/max.

Edited February 21, 2015 by Vascela

[ckc22]

I don't think Apo should be considered regarding optimization; it goes against the basic definition. Any pairs made to be "optimal" don't outperform the completion of the map. No pairings get you to 101% consistency (surely you agree with that). Min/max'ing at its best will perform equal. At its worst will perform sub 100%. The "optimized" is getting outperformed by the "unoptimized."

There's a difference between "here's a given set of conditions, I want to be able to accomplish this certain task. I will make the given sacrifices to complete this goal" and "here's an optimized set of player choices that outperform others." Min/max is good and all, but you need to make sure to specify what you want to target (chapter goal, rta, LTC, streetpass specific setup, etc).

I know. I've read your gamefaqs posts. We're never going to agree and that's fine. At least you seem to be less rude here.

[ckc22]

The goal the game hands you is to complete the map. I'd find it very difficult for you to interpret that goal in a different way.

Now if you add on a specific challenge/limitation to it (such as no rallies, complete in 6 turns, complete with lowest possible units), then that can be quantified in a min/max.

Now you're just being willfully difficult. For many people optimization is about making the characters as powerful as possible. Apo stands as the obvious standard for doing that because it is the hardest available challenge.

[Vascela]

Now you're just being willfully difficult. For many people optimization is about making the characters as powerful as possible. Apo stands as the obvious standard for doing that because it is the hardest available challenge.

If infinitely many combinations all perform equal, then how to you quantify the better set? Here's the simplest example which sums up a lot of things

An enemy has 80 HP

You can either deal 79 damage twice, or 40 damage twice. There are no excess details (between enemy counter, or getting Luna to save 1 weapon use), these are the final calculations. Which is better? Ignore any but what if statements you might want to add because this pretty much is Apo in its simplest form.

[ckc22]

If infinitely many combinations all perform equal, then how to you quantify the better set? Here's the simplest example which sums up a lot of things

An enemy has 80 HP

You can either deal 79 damage twice, or 40 damage twice. There are no excess details (between enemy counter, or getting Luna to save 1 weapon use), these are the final calculations. Which is better? Ignore any but what if statements you might want to add because this pretty much is Apo in its simplest form.

The answer to this is obvious if you're optimizing: 79 damage twice.

"Completion" of the map is a relatively low bar. This thread is basically all about how to overkill it.

We obviously have very very different philosophies about what optimization means.

The person with straight Cs and the person with straight As both graduate/"complete" highschool. It's pretty obvious who did better.

[Czar_Yoshi]

I don't think Apo should be considered regarding optimization; it goes against the basic definition. Any pairs made to be "optimal" don't outperform the completion of the map.

Depends on your definition of "performance". If you take it to mean their contribution towards completing the map, well, sure. But if you take it to mean actually putting on a show, there are certainly some sets that can do things others can't. I've got a Lucina set that has her KO a 3HP Thronie with a 4 dmg Brave Lance strike, while being at 1HP herself barring a low% DG, for no reason other than to show off, and it's a lot more interesting than just pasting him with mages and bows.

And there also are, at least, pairs with more tolerance for player error. It's always nice to assume that the player is perfect, but in reality it just ain't so.

[Vascela]

@ckc22

That isn't a good comparison, as the As will net you a better university than the Cs student. At the end of the day, we both end up with a Supreme Emblem. The only difference is that one is a flavorful gamble, and the other is the hard truth.

@Czar

It's hard to quantify "putting on a show" as an objective guideline, don't you think? As for excusing player error: a 100% run isn't dependent on any RNs in the entire RN table (or however you want to visualize RNs). While the Aether/Luna/Chance team can fail on random chance (it's not very likely that you fail 200 Lunas, but the point is that it exists). If the chance team always has a backup plan, then why did they need the chance procs in the first place?