PAIRINGS The Pairing Thread

[ckc22]

@ckc22

That isn't a good comparison, as the As will net you a better university than the Cs student. At the end of the day, we both end up with a Supreme Emblem. The only difference is that one is a flavorful gamble, and the other is the hard truth.

There are no excess details. Which is better? Ignore any but what if statements you might want to add....

[Vascela]

@ckc

You are rewarded bonuses for getting As over Cs.

You are not rewarded bonuses for dealing 79 damage instead of 40 twice.

[ckc22]

@ckc

You are rewarded bonuses for getting As over Cs.

You are not rewarded bonuses for dealing 79 damage instead of 40 twice.

I'm done with you. I'm not going to waste my time. If you live in a world where 79 = 40 then good for you. Bye.

Edited February 21, 2015 by ckc22

[Vascela]

The point is excess AT is baggage. Just like how excess Hit rate is meaningless as well. If you have enough hit rate to get 100% displayed hit all of the time without hit rate +20, then it's much more obvious you don't want hit rate +20. Is that easier to visualize?

[ckc22]

The whole point of optimization is excess...

Sidenote is their not a way to ignore users on this board?

Edited February 21, 2015 by ckc22

[Vascela]

The stats are in excess, but the execution is equal. That's what you need to see.

[Czar_Yoshi]

@Czar

It's hard to quantify "putting on a show" as an objective guideline, don't you think? As for excusing player error: a 100% run isn't dependent on any RNs in the entire RN table (or however you want to visualize RNs). While the Aether/Luna/Chance team can fail on random chance (it's not very likely that you fail 200 Lunas, but the point is that it exists). If the chance team always has a backup plan, then why did they need the chance procs in the first place?

That's because it's not objective, nor do I want it to be. If it were, it would be possible to do it "best", and I'd rather this game not be exhausted of potential.

They need the random procs to add variety to the map. I know what you're going to say to that, and there just are some people who actually want randomness- whether it's so the map doesn't get stale as fast (if one spends hours grinding up a team for Apo, they better get more than one run out of it) or because it's their first time and they really would rather not follow any sort of turn-by-turn guide.

Now, I'd appreciate it if you both stopped arguing. I've seen this debate many times on Gfaqs, have made teams for both sides and respect both positions, and in the end I don't believe it's relevant to this thread's purpose of helping people who don't know the game as well as you do.

Edited February 21, 2015 by Czar_Yoshi

[ckc22]

The stats are in excess, but the execution is equal. That's what you need to see.

I don't need to see anything. We have different values and different philosophies of optimization and what it means. I'm not claiming that mine is the only one that is valid like you are. Please go back to gamefaqs. I've watched people I respect far more than you have this exact same discussion (read: generous term) with you for pages and pages. I have no interest in doing the same.

[zoned out]

@ckc22, Czar_Yoshi

Thank you for the responses. Before posting here, I wasn't aware of the importance of the DS. I think after my current playthrough I'll put much more thought into my next pairings and post it here again.

My last question before I start playing is if I'm going Gaius!Kjelle, would it be better for Noire to not go Donnel!Noire just for that GF. Like is there a non-GF dad that could make her usable instead of a farm turd? Or would the father have to be something to consider after deciding child pairings?

[HeoandReo]

oh hey I was just on gamefaqs earlier today

@ckc22, Czar_Yoshi

Thank you for the responses. Before posting here, I wasn't aware of the importance of the DS. I think after my current playthrough I'll put much more thought into my next pairings and post it here again.

My last question before I start playing is if I'm going Gaius!Kjelle, would it be better for Noire to not go Donnel!Noire just for that GF. Like is there a non-GF dad that could make her usable instead of a farm turd? Or would the father have to be something to consider after deciding child pairings?

I'm actually running Donnel!Noire in a file right now, with a similar situation to yours, so I might comment a bit on this. (Decided to do Gaius!Kjelle, didn't have the heart to just bench her) She can put in a bit of work but is pretty easily the weakest member of my team. Historically, it's a pairing I don't really like storywise, but it has some uses. She makes a pretty good Bride, works well as a Sniper and is OKish as a Sorcerer. I might be spoiled, but no Vantage and no Tomefaire hurts a lot compared to what I'm used to.

The main problem that I've faced using Donnel!Noire, especially compared to Donnel!Kjelle is that she doesn't really have any 'fast' class barring Falcoknight to make up for her low modifiers. Donnel!Kjelle at least gets Assassin right off the bat to make her viable for the harder stuff. For Noire I had to marry her to Berserker/Hero Gerome just so that she could keep up with everyone else in harder maps, which creates a bit of a domino effect of lower hit rates and lower reliability compared to my other pairs. I have better Snipers on the team anyway,(Lucina, Morgan) so with Donnel there's really not that much left for her to do.

Like she's not awful. Just really, really underwhelming and restrictive in terms of who she can pair up with.

As for alternatives, I quite like Gregor!Noire. (And it was what I was planning to do before I decided to shuffle my child pairs) Modifiers are good on both sides of the spectrum, she gets enough to really abuse Sorcerer with (Vantage + AT) and a couple of good classes and skills to function as a female supporter for a Galeforce male. She can run Hero, Assassin, Bow Knight, Sniper and Bride with impunity when it comes to that role.

Edited February 21, 2015 by HeoandReo

[Czar_Yoshi]

My last question before I start playing is if I'm going Gaius!Kjelle, would it be better for Noire to not go Donnel!Noire just for that GF. Like is there a non-GF dad that could make her usable instead of a farm turd? Or would the father have to be something to consider after deciding child pairings?

There is absolutely no unique role in a team that Donnel!Noire can do. She does have a full kit of skills and enough ending classes to run a good set, but her mods just leave her outclassed by everyone else. You could take her as-is and just live with her doing less work than everyone else, or:

-Go with another father: Fred and Gregor have been the most successful ones for me. You'll probably want to pair her with Inigo if you do this.

-Bench her. More staffbots are always good, and Apo's limited deployment slots are often under-emphasized. If you do this, you'll need to either bench someone else (probably Gerome), or have Avatar marry first gen- Sumia, Cordelia and Aversa are his most potent options.

[Epsilon]

What do you guys think of:

Lon'Qu: Severa X

(+Mag, -Def) MaMU

For post-game?

I was thinking about it and Morgan should be able to double Anna in any non-Gk, WL, General, and in any pair-up right?

Her Mods are:

0 2 4 6 8 -1 -4 -1

So this gives me a black-haired Morgan ;), and basically every non-tanking option in the game right? The speed might be over-kill for some classes, but I think I could pull-off like every class I want. I think it will be fun.

What do you guys think?

-----

Oh and Czar Yoshi, thanks again for the Lunatic advice and the thread link. The play-through is going great!

[astrophys]

Well, for the classes that aren't specially slow (like the ones you cited as ones she wouldn't be in) the typical minimum capped speed is 40.

40 basic cap + 8 modifiers = 48 modified cap

48 modified cap + 10 Limit Breaker + 10 Rallies + 2 tonic = 70 speed

70 speed + 3 generic pair-up speed = 73 speed

Speed needed to double Anna: 75

So you're not quite there yet.

You could solve the problem by taking a 42 speed base cap class, like Sage or Dark Flier, instead of the 40 speed from my earlier example. That would get you to 75.

Or you could use a pair-up partner who specifically boosts speed and that would also put you over.

Or you could throw on All Stats+2 or Speed+2 to get the extra speed.

Any one of these remedies would get you up to 75 (or more) speed from the 73 after mods, generic pair-up, tonics, limit breaker, and rallies.

[Epsilon]

I see. That should be fine then. I mean, if I wanted to use a Sniper: Morgan. I would just have to pair with an Assassin. And If I wanted to be a Sorcerer: Morgan I could pair with a Dread Fighter.

I think Gregor: Laurent would be perfect for her. I could just stack Laurent: Sage and Morgan: Sage as well.

Plus with the +2 all skill, this still looks fun.

Thanks.

[ckc22]

I see. That should be fine then. I mean, if I wanted to use a Sniper: Morgan. I would just have to pair with an Assassin. And If I wanted to be a Sorcerer: Morgan I could pair with a Dread Fighter.

I think Gregor: Laurent would be perfect for her. I could just stack Laurent: Sage and Morgan: Sage as well.

Plus with the +2 all skill, this still looks fun.

Thanks.

I love morgan x laurent. I typically run a spd/def sumia!lucina!morgan, but looking at your mods they should still be able to pull off a 100% ds 75 speed sniper x hero set or a 75 speed sage or darkflier with a sage support.

Although I think if I was going to get a severa!morgan I think I'd do skl/def lonqu!severa!morgan x virion!laurent to get a VVDS pair.

Edited February 21, 2015 by ckc22

[Czar_Yoshi]

That Morgan hits 75 in any 42+ class with any pairup and in any class but General with a +3 pairup (General requires +3 and All+2).

I don't recommend Sorcs in Apo though. They're pretty much completely inferior to Sages since all their combat stats are worse (Def doesn't matter) and utility staff access is better than utility dark magic access.

Trying to get 100% DS on a VV pair is completely useless outside of challenge runs (where, depending on the nature of the run, it's either also useless or pretty much required). Trying to do it on a non-Lucina pair is even more useless because you're going to have to sacrifice a ton of power on the support to get to 100% and will likely miss out on a boss kill or two as a result, and if all your VV pair can do is mop up mooks then it's outclassed even more.

Instead, you may want to run that Morgan as a DF, Valkyrie or DK. DF is the conventional best with good Ignis boosts and automatic 75 Spd with a Sage support, but the other two can be fun for the novelty value (Valkyrie still hits 75 Spd, DK is a little tankier if you're uncomefortable running around with 50/65 defenses)

[spnc2217]

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=42247&page=187#entry3589895

A list of cookie cutter general purpose pairings. If you have any questions on why who goes where, just ask.

So looking around and reading a bit I think I like:

Sumia!Lucina

Lucina!Morgan

Chrom!Cynthia

Donnel!Kjelle

Gregor!Laurent

Lonqu!Severa

Fred!Inigo

Gaius!Noire

Virion!Yarne

Stahl!Gerome

Ricken!Owain

Leaving Nah and Brady who I'm less decided about, and leaving kellam, libra, henry, and vaike leftover as dads.

So I guess I'd do either: Henry!Nah Libra!Brady or Vaike!Nah Henry!Brady

I'd change something from the top set if there was a good reason to though.

[Diabeasty]

Henry!Nah or Vaike!Nah pretty much comes down to preference, they're both very good. Vaike!Nah hits incredibly hard from the physical side, while Henry!Nah has the option of running magical or physical. Her magical set is very nice in my opinion. Libra!Brady is good, though Henry!Brady is basically a direct upgrade the difference isn't huge, just 1 STR and 1 SKL. Henry also gives Berserker and Thief, but those aren't things you'll generally make much use of. I like Henry!Nah and Libra!Brady personally. Vaike!Nah is very close though.

Also, I would say try Gaius!Kjelle and have Donnel be a bachelor. Donnel's stats are just kind of terrible, and Noire missing out on GF is a fair trade for having actually decent ones. Vaike is a pretty solid father for a GF-less Noire, he gives a ton of STR, Axefaire, and Hero. Gregor is generally better than Vaike for Noire since he gives Merc alongside Myrmidon and Troubadour, but Vaike is way more available.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Diabeasty

[Epsilon]

Last thing everyone. Please help me create the most optimal pairs from these cookie-cutter pairings. Thanks again!.

So far I have.

Gaius!Kjelle (Paladin)

Sumia!Lucina (Sniper)

Chrom!Cynthia (Dark Flier)

Donnel!Noire Back-Up(Sniper/Assassin)

Henry!Nah (Sage/DF/Valkyrie)

------------------------------------

Ricken!Owain (Dread Fighter)

Libra!Inigo (Berzerker)

Virion!Brady (Sage)

Vaike!Gerome (Berzerker)

Stahl!Yarne (Assassin)

[ckc22]

snip

This is basically my setup and like Diabeasty I ended up preferring henry!nah and libra!brady. I like some versatility in my units though - also as a female hard support Nah has more skill room than most, so she benefits from an aura like anathema more than most. Although it does make me wish Henry had merc instead of thief so bad. Brady is going to be largely the same with either Henry/Libra.

Unless you're getting mods to hit certain thresholds/a character already has everything they need/you can get the mod to >= 5ish I find optimizing mods to be a little underwhelming.

Gaius!Kjelle (compared to donnel) gives kjelle 3 skl/spd, she gets no really useful skills over donnel, and she loses a couple of options as a final class.

As for noire:

vaike!noire is 4/2/1/3

Gregor!noire is 3/3/2/2

donnel!noire is 2/3/-1/1

Even if you do switch gaius over to Kjelle, I don't think giving up galeforce is worth <2 stat point increases personally. My preference from Donnel!Kjelle, Gaius!Noire comes from a preference for team-wide optimization over individual units.

Last thing everyone. Please help me create the most optimal pairs from these cookie-cutter pairings. Thanks again!.

So far I have.

Gaius!Kjelle (Paladin)

Sumia!Lucina (Sniper)

Chrom!Cynthia (Dark Flier)

Donnel!Noire Back-Up(Sniper/Assassin)

Henry!Nah (Sage/DF/Valkyrie)

------------------------------------

Ricken!Owain (Dread Fighter)

Libra!Inigo (Berzerker)

Virion!Brady (Sage)

Vaike!Gerome (Berzerker)

Stahl!Yarne (Assassin)

Just curious before I make suggestions - what are Morgan, Avatar, Laurent, Severa doing?

MODEDIT: yo dogg don't doublepost

Edited February 22, 2015 by Integrity

[Epsilon]

Just curious before I make suggestions - what are Morgan, Avatar, Laurent, Severa doing?

+Ma -Def Avatar (Paladin)

Lon'Qu!Severa (Wyvern Lord) (All Stats +2)

------------

Severa!Morgan (Sage)

Gregor!Laurent (Sage)

[ckc22]

Last thing everyone. Please help me create the most optimal pairs from these cookie-cutter pairings. Thanks again!.

So far I have.

Gaius!Kjelle (Paladin)

Sumia!Lucina (Sniper)

Chrom!Cynthia (Dark Flier)

Donnel!Noire Back-Up(Sniper/Assassin)

Henry!Nah (Sage/DF/Valkyrie)

------------------------------------

Ricken!Owain (Dread Fighter)

Libra!Inigo (Berzerker)

Virion!Brady (Sage)

Vaike!Gerome (Berzerker)

Stahl!Yarne (Assassin)

I'd probably do something like:

Cynthia x Brady

Lucina x Gerome

Nah x Owain

Less sure about Kjelle/Noire x Inigo/Yarne. The parentage is quite different from what I like so I'd have to crunch some numbers.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Unless you're getting mods to hit certain thresholds/a character already has everything they need/you can get the mod to >= 5ish I find optimizing mods to be a little underwhelming.

Gaius!Kjelle (compared to donnel) gives kjelle 3 skl/spd, she gets no really useful skills over donnel, and she loses a couple of options as a final class.

So first off Gaius!Kjelle does indeed have 5 Skl/Spd so she meets your definition there, but that extra Spd also lets her break multiple thresholds. It's not just sitting there doing nothing.

With a +3 Spd support (Hero/Berserker/BK), she can hit 75 Spd as a Wyvern Lord with All+2 and 75 Spd as a Paladin with no All+2 (making room for a procstack or Deliverer). Donnel!Kjelle can't hit either of those even with All+2 on the Paladin. She can also hit 69 Spd as a General with a +2 Spd support (Paladin ferry) and no All+2, while Donnel!Kjelle needs All+2 and a +3 to do that.

The only new class Donnel gives Kjelle that she'd consider as a final class is Hero (no TF and a -1 mag mod for Valkyrie), but that still requires All+2 to hit 75 Spd with a +3 support, making it fairly underwhelming. So realistically Gaius!Kjelle can realize the maximum potential of 2-3 more ending classes than Donnel!Kjelle (both of them can pack Assassin nicely, so you're looking at 2 for Donnel vs 4 for Gaius, and two of Gaius's are 8 Mov).

Gaius!Kjelle is essentially Wyvern Severa with Luna and Paladin instead of +6 Hero or Tomefaire as backups. Donnel!Kjelle is just a second-rate GF lead who can't do anything more than follow cookie-cutter builds whose only purpose is to give Vantage + GF to Noire, even though she can't make nearly as much use of Gaius's mods as Kjelle.

[ckc22]

Thanks yoshi

I don't have a problem with Gaius!Kjelle and I'm not saying she's bad at all - she has a lot of advantages that you pointed out. I feel like donnel hurts noire more than kjelle though. And it seems like the main advantages to Gaius!Kjelle comes from 75 speed - and there are what.... 4-5 enemies in SR Apo with 70 speed? The 69 speed threshold is a lot easier to hit.

Basically gaius!kjelle > donnel!kjelle is a given. When you throw Noire into the picture I think it's a little more complicated.

I wouldn't mind hearing your thoughts on Donnel!Noire though. :)

And for totally unacceptable non min/max reasons - I really like Gaius' hair on Noire haha, especially with her unique green archer class tree clothes.

Edited February 22, 2015 by ckc22

[Diabeasty]

While Gaius!Noire is probably the best one in a vacuum, she doesn't really bring anything unique to the table. Donnel!Noire isn't particularly good, but Donnel makes anyone lackluster. As I said before Noire missing out on GF isn't a huge deal. I would rather have two units with good stats and one with Galeforce than two units with Galeforce and one with good stats that aren't used particularly well.

Stahl!Gerome has some pretty good synergy with Gaius!Kjelle, though maybe not quite as much as someone like Virion!Yarne. Gerome has Swordfaire Hero for a +3 SPD support so that Kjelle can reach 75 SPD as a Wyvern Lord. Kjelle probably makes better use of the +8 SKL than Severa too since she has Luna instead of Vengeance. Kjelle can be an assassin and hit 75 speed with Gerome as a Bowfaire Warrior, and since Kjelle doesn't need any extra speed she gets to procstack. Gaius!Noire can do that too but there's only one Gaius. Gerome as a Sniper also hits 100% DS with Kjelle as an Assassin, both using all+2 and Gerome using SKL+2. They can't quite hit 100% DS with Kjelle as a Falcon Knight like Virion!Yarne x Gaius!Kjelle could, but sacrifices have to be made sometimes. Donnel!Kjelle can't really do anything cool, though I guess she can hit 75 SPD as an assassin with all+2 and any pair-up.