Cat1803 Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) If you're mentioning 75 Spd, then DLC is enabled. With DLC enabled, Stahl!Gerome's partner doesn't need 75 Spd. The highest defense enemy in the game, Wave 2 Sniper Boss, can't take his hits. Yes, Stahl!Gerome is fucking amazing. Let's be honest, Stahl on almost everyone is amazing. I'd honestly use Stahl!Gerome more if Stahl wasn't frequently on other children. Edited January 18, 2015 by Cat1803 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckc22 Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) If you're mentioning 75 Spd, then DLC is enabled. With DLC enabled, Stahl!Gerome's partner doesn't need 75 Spd. The highest defense enemy in the game, Wave 2 Sniper Boss, can't take his hits. Yes, Stahl!Gerome is fucking amazing. I've seen some of your posts in the past (haha sorry for the stalker post) - but it's been a while, I'm just curious - is your preferred set still: Sumia!Lucina Chrom!Cynthia Lucina!Morgan Donnel!Noire Fred!Inigo Ricken!Owain Vaike!Nah Gregor!Laurent Virion!Brady Kellam!Yarne Gaius!Kjelle Stahl!Gerome Lonqu!Severa or have you made any changes? Edited January 18, 2015 by ckc22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ownagepuffs Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) Stahl on Gerome maximizes ROI. I mean he could either make awesome --> more awesome on other kids or he could make mediocre --> superman if you put him on Gerome. Like, Stahl is everything Gerome could ever ask for. Faires, procs, zero class overlap, a ton of physical classes, strength, accuracy, a hair color that looks good on him. It's probably as much of a match made in heaven as Gregor x Miriel. Even in like, a no Braves scenario Stahl!Gerome could probably rock Warrior w/ Parthia. But it'll probably cause some issues if you wanted to double shit and wouldn't be as potent as Henry!Gerome w/ Hauteclere. This is why we pair him with LQ!Sevvy though. I'm too lazy to check the numbers but her personal speed should be enough to double all mooks anyway. She'd miss Thronia, Anna, and Sniper still :( I've seen some of your posts in the past (haha sorry for the stalker post) - but it's been a while, I'm just curious - is your preferred set still: Sumia!Lucina Chrom!Cynthia Lucina!Morgan Donnel!Noire Fred!Inigo Ricken!Owain Vaike!Nah Gregor!Laurent Virion!Brady Kellam!Yarne Gaius!Kjelle Stahl!Gerome Lonqu!Severa or have you made any changes? I haven't participated in a minmax discussion in like forever lol wow. There are changes since I was sorta dumb during that time (Kellam!Yarne what the fuck was I thinking). Namely, I've gotta admit that Gaius!Noire yields a significantly higher ROI than Gaius!Kjelle. Gaius!Kjelle = diminishing returns. I still prefer Gaius!Kjelle anyway since it's like having LQ!Severa but with Astra/Luna instead of Vengeance. Henry would end up on Nah so that she could be a Hexathema Hero and Libra would probably go to Yarne for Hexathema Zerker. I had completely forgot Hexathema worked from the back >_>. There's a lot of interchangeability and flexibility though. Like Ricken, Virion, Stahl, and Henry could be shifted around like musical chairs and you'd still get more or less the same result. Some notes/ramblings I think Ricken!Inigo is the best Inigo since he can do like everything to perfection (every single faire in the game minus Lancefaire because Galeforce). Cool enough, Ricken!Inigo is what Airship Canon used in his epic Apo run. Frederick!Inigo is still my favorite Inigo anyway. it took a lot of convincing to get people to realize that he isn't slow at all. I legit do no think any minmax pairing is going to get better than Sumia x Chrom as far as overall benefit is concerned. Hell as of my Lunatic classic playthrough (WIP) I think it's the 3rd strongest pairing for in game as well (behind Chrom x FeMU, and Avatar x anyone). I'm still a mega huge Chromia fanboy. Stahl!Owain's pretty cool since he is the closest you can get to a competent physical Owain. LQ!Severa has surprised me with how long it has stayed relevant. I mean there was that whole Stahl!Severa era but we're past that now. Speaking of which, I have underrated Stahl!Severa, them mods, skills and classes are no joke. She's still sorta redundant compared to LQ!Severa. Like LQ!Severa, Gregor!Laurent's longevity has surprised me. In game and post game usefulness. You simply can't go wrong with it. If I had to compare it to something, it'd probably be Beowolf x Lachesis. Edited January 18, 2015 by Ownagepuffs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Gerome has one of the worst class sets to begin with, and while Virion gives him one class that allows him to function and decent stats, Stahl's genes give him a lot more options to work with especially if you like doing things outside of Apotheosis. Outside of Apo? Yarne has like nothing for non-Apo postgame- Taguel reeks so he's stuck with Trickster, Assassin, Warrior and Berserker (the last of which is pretty bad outside Apo due to being axelocked). Gerome, meanwhile, comes with plenty of self healing options, Wyvern/Deliverer for high movement, Hero for good stats all around and Sage if he wants to go magical. Fatherless Yarne is definitely in greater need of things for non-Apo postgame than Gerome is, even though he's way better in Apo itself. Namely, I've gotta admit that Gaius!Noire yields a significantly higher ROI than Gaius!Kjelle. Gaius!Kjelle = diminishing returns. I still prefer Gaius!Kjelle anyway since it's like having LQ!Severa but with Astra/Luna instead of Vengeance. Is that taking into account that you also get diminishing returns from adding more attack pairs to your Apo team? I find the potential increase from Donnel!Kjelle to Gaius!Kjelle to be slightly more than going from Bench!Noire to Gaius!Noire. Lon'qu!Severa@Hero with All+2 hits 75 with a +0 support. Her speed is pretty much unsinkable. Let's be honest, Stahl on almost everyone is amazing. Not Severa. The returns for her class set and mods don't justify that hair. I've had better luck with Stahl!Severa as an ingame/early postgame unit than as an Apo unit, actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diabeasty Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Outside of Apo? Yarne has like nothing for non-Apo postgame- Taguel reeks so he's stuck with Trickster, Assassin, Warrior and Berserker (the last of which is pretty bad outside Apo due to being axelocked). Gerome, meanwhile, comes with plenty of self healing options, Wyvern/Deliverer for high movement, Hero for good stats all around and Sage if he wants to go magical. Fatherless Yarne is definitely in greater need of things for non-Apo postgame than Gerome is, even though he's way better in Apo itself. Yeah I'm not even gonna make excuses, I have no idea what I was thinking when I said that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isetrh Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 In the interest of being done and having some time to enjoy it before FE14 comes out, I've given in and decided to make my Apo team in vanilla Lunatic. Since this means that Risen skirmishes will no longer be a credible threat, I'm not sure what to do with Nah. I was going to use her as a Manakete tank, but without skirmishes I don't know how much point there is. Kellam!Nah @ Manakete LB/Deliverer/Pass/Lifetaker/Renewal Frederick!Inigo @ Dread Fighter LB/GF/AT/Pass/Deliverer or Sol Is there any reason to keep this setup? Do you have any suggestions for alternatives? One possibility is to do Nah x Gerome with leftover fathers and concentrate the awesome in my other six child pairs. I could also switch to a MaMU-based team, freeing up Yarne to replace Henry!Gerome as a Berserker, in turn freeing up Henry to make Nah good. The rest of my team, in approximate order of most to least likely to be affected by changes to the Nah pair: Virion!Severa @ Wyvern Lord LB/GF/Vengeance/LF/AS+2 Henry!Gerome @ Berserker LB/Agg/AF/Anathema/AS+2 +Skill -Def FeMU @ Sniper LB/GF/AT/AS+2/Deliverer Gregor!Yarne @ Assassin LB/Agg/AF/AT/AS+2 Donnel!Kjelle @ Assassin LB/GF/AT/AS+2/Deliverer +Skill -Def Gregor!Yarne!Morgan @ Sniper LB/GF/Agg/BF/AT Gaius!Noire @ Sniper LB/GF/Luna/Astra/BF Libra!Owain @ Sage LB/GF/Agg/Vengeance/TF Sumia!Lucina @ Dark Flier LB/GF/DS+/Aether/Luna Ricken!Laurent @ Sage LB/Agg/TF/AS+2/Anathema Chrom!Cynthia @ Dark Flier LB/GF/Aether/Luna/TF Lon'qu!Brady LB/GF/Agg/Luna/TF Sumia @ Dark Flier LB/GF/Luna/TF/AS+2 Chrom @ Bow Knight LB/Agg/DS+/BF/Hit+20 Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 You could always just do Lunatic+ with grinding. The Outrealm Gate is pretty easy to reach with any asset/flaw by now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diabeasty Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) In the interest of being done and having some time to enjoy it before FE14 comes out, I've given in and decided to make my Apo team in vanilla Lunatic. Since this means that Risen skirmishes will no longer be a credible threat, I'm not sure what to do with Nah. I was going to use her as a Manakete tank, but without skirmishes I don't know how much point there is. Kellam!Nah @ Manakete LB/Deliverer/Pass/Lifetaker/Renewal Frederick!Inigo @ Dread Fighter LB/GF/AT/Pass/Deliverer or Sol Is there any reason to keep this setup? Do you have any suggestions for alternatives? One possibility is to do Nah x Gerome with leftover fathers and concentrate the awesome in my other six child pairs. I could also switch to a MaMU-based team, freeing up Yarne to replace Henry!Gerome as a Berserker, in turn freeing up Henry to make Nah good. The rest of my team, in approximate order of most to least likely to be affected by changes to the Nah pair: Virion!Severa @ Wyvern Lord LB/GF/Vengeance/LF/AS+2 Henry!Gerome @ Berserker LB/Agg/AF/Anathema/AS+2 +Skill -Def FeMU @ Sniper LB/GF/AT/AS+2/Deliverer Gregor!Yarne @ Assassin LB/Agg/AF/AT/AS+2 Donnel!Kjelle @ Assassin LB/GF/AT/AS+2/Deliverer +Skill -Def Gregor!Yarne!Morgan @ Sniper LB/GF/Agg/BF/AT Gaius!Noire @ Sniper LB/GF/Luna/Astra/BF Libra!Owain @ Sage LB/GF/Agg/Vengeance/TF Sumia!Lucina @ Dark Flier LB/GF/DS+/Aether/Luna Ricken!Laurent @ Sage LB/Agg/TF/AS+2/Anathema Chrom!Cynthia @ Dark Flier LB/GF/Aether/Luna/TF Lon'qu!Brady LB/GF/Agg/Luna/TF Sumia @ Dark Flier LB/GF/Luna/TF/AS+2 Chrom @ Bow Knight LB/Agg/DS+/BF/Hit+20 Thanks! This is the setup I've been using. It sounds about like what you'd end up with if you decided to use a MaMU setup, I don't claim to be good at anything but maybe you'll find it helpful in some way. In no particular order: Sumia!Lucina @ Paladin DS+/Aether/Luna/LB/GF +SPD -DEF MaMU @ Berserker Agg/LB/AF/Hit+20/Anathema Sumia!Lucina!Morgan @ Dark Flier Aether/Luna/LB/TF/GF Libra!Brady @ Sage Luna/Agg/LB/TF/GF Chrom!Cynthia @ Dark Flier Aether/Luna/LB/TF/GF Gregor!Laurent @ Sage Agg/LB/TF/AS+2/Anathema Henry!Nah @ Valkyrie Vengeance/LB/TF/AS+2/Anathema Ricken!Owain @ Sage Luna/LB/TF/AGG/GF Lon'Qu!Severa @ Hero Vengeance/LB/SF/GF/AS+2 Stahl!Gerome @ Warrior AGG/LB/BF/Hit+20/AS+2 Donnel!Kjelle @ Paladin Luna/Astra/LB/SF/GF Frederick!Inigo @ Wyvern Lord Luna/Agg/LB/AF/GF Gaius!Noire @ Sniper Luna/Astra/LB/BF/GF Virion!Yarne @ Berserker Agg/LB/AF/Hit+20/AS+2 I believe that's everybody. I left out Chrom and Sumia because they're pretty much set in stone as it is and would be completely unchanged. A few notes on my pairings. Ricken and Libra are interchangeable obviously. Laurent can go with either Morgan or Cynthia, and would be best used on whichever girl you'd like to have the option of having a berserker pair-up. Obviously with that said Nah can go with either Brady or Owain. I went with Donnel!Kjelle and Gaius!Noire for a few reasons. Yarne needs a wife, obviously I could have Gaius!Kjelle as a Wyvern Lord, but that would leave Noire stuck with Donnel or Vaike as her father and Inigo as her husband. Donnel!Noire x Frederick!Inigo just sounds incredibly lackluster to me. They would be slow, Noire would hit decently hard but I just feel like I would be gimping her too much. Donnel!Kjelle makes a nice paladin, and paladin pair-up bonuses give Wyvern Lord Frederick!Inigo a nice boost. Gaius!Noire x Virion!Yarne is nice because it makes Noire hit hard and fast, and I just feel like if I want all my pairings to be nice on their own it's a pretty good way to go. Donnel!Noire x Virion!Yarne could work, but I feel like it would just be removing options from Noire for no real reason. A few of these can reach 100% DS, I know Severa x Gerome, I THINK whatever pair Laurent ends up in, and Noire x Yarne can. That's not too bad all things considered. Obviously not counting Lucina. Also I went with the +SPD asset over +SKL because with +SPD Morgan can reach 75 speed with only the base pair-up bonus as a Dark Flier. Edited January 18, 2015 by Diabeasty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alastor15243 Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 If you're mentioning 75 Spd, then DLC is enabled. With DLC enabled, Stahl!Gerome's partner doesn't need 75 Spd. The highest defense enemy in the game, Wave 2 Sniper Boss, can't take his hits. Yes, Stahl!Gerome is fucking amazing. I always assume brave weapons are banned. Because if they aren't, optimization doesn't matter anywhere near as much, and there's nothing that's harder with brave weapons, so any advice that makes something good for a no-brave run is equally good for a brave run except weapon choice. And on no-brave runs, there's no way a non-75 speed unit is one-rounding the nightmare sniper. It's impossible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) Well, let's see about that. Lon'qu/Virion!Severa@Wyvern Lord@Gungnir (LB/GF/LF/Vengeance/All+2) x Stahl!Yarne@Berserker@5/15 Hector's Axe (LB/Agg/AF/All+2/Hit+20). Severa has a perfect Vengeance boost. I'll assume perfect RNG excluding crits. Severa's atk: 46(base) +2(mods) +10(LB) +10(Rally) +10(pairup) +5(LF) +2(All+2) +2(tonic) +23(Gungnir) +42(Vengeance) =152 -70 /4 =20 Yarne's atk: 50(base) +5(mods) +10(LB) +10(Rally) +10(Agg) +2(All+2) +2(tonic) +23(Hector's Axe) =112 -70 /4 =21 20+21+20+21 =82, which is more than enough for a KO (Severa has 12 HP of leeway- 146 Atk is required for 19 damage and she's got 152). Swap in Str+2 on Yarne over Hit+20 for more room, and upgrade to VGM for even more. Of course, this is assuming physical. Magical, you could paste him without a proc. Edit- never mind, you said <75 Spd. Still, I bet Henry!Nah's critstacking build could give a decent shot at taking him down without 75 Spd. Edited January 18, 2015 by Czar_Yoshi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isetrh Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 You could always just do Lunatic+ with grinding. The Outrealm Gate is pretty easy to reach with any asset/flaw by now. That's true. Seems like postgame grinding would become a lot more tedious though. If you leave someone equipped in EP who isn't specifically already built to survive it, they get slaughtered by Counter. Units who haven't maxed stats yet are going to have a hard time surviving Luna+ too. Planning out every turn on the grinding maps as carefully as you would a story chapter just seems incredibly tedious. Am I missing something? You've said before that you can train a unit from base to max in an hour, and if that was on Lunatic+ it can't be as bad as I'm thinking. This is the setup I've been using. It sounds about like what you'd end up with if you decided to use a MaMU setup, I don't claim to be good at anything but maybe you'll find it helpful in some way. In no particular order: Sumia!Lucina @ Paladin DS+/Aether/Luna/LB/GF +SPD -DEF MaMU @ Berserker Agg/LB/AF/Hit+20/Anathema Sumia!Lucina!Morgan @ Dark Flier Aether/Luna/LB/TF/GF Libra!Brady @ Sage Luna/Agg/LB/TF/GF Chrom!Cynthia @ Dark Flier Aether/Luna/LB/TF/GF Gregor!Laurent @ Sage Agg/LB/TF/AS+2/Anathema Henry!Nah @ Valkyrie Vengeance/LB/TF/AS+2/Anathema Ricken!Owain @ Sage Luna/LB/TF/AGG/GF Lon'Qu!Severa @ Hero Vengeance/LB/SF/GF/AS+2 Stahl!Gerome @ Warrior AGG/LB/BF/Hit+20/AS+2 Donnel!Kjelle @ Paladin Luna/Astra/LB/SF/GF Frederick!Inigo @ Wyvern Lord Luna/Agg/LB/AF/GF Gaius!Noire @ Sniper Luna/Astra/LB/BF/GF Virion!Yarne @ Berserker Agg/LB/AF/Hit+20/AS+2 I believe that's everybody. I left out Chrom and Sumia because they're pretty much set in stone as it is and would be completely unchanged. A few notes on my pairings. Ricken and Libra are interchangeable obviously. Laurent can go with either Morgan or Cynthia, and would be best used on whichever girl you'd like to have the option of having a berserker pair-up. Obviously with that said Nah can go with either Brady or Owain. I went with Donnel!Kjelle and Gaius!Noire for a few reasons. Yarne needs a wife, obviously I could have Gaius!Kjelle as a Wyvern Lord, but that would leave Noire stuck with Donnel or Vaike as her father and Inigo as her husband. Donnel!Noire x Frederick!Inigo just sounds incredibly lackluster to me. They would be slow, Noire would hit decently hard but I just feel like I would be gimping her too much. Donnel!Kjelle makes a nice paladin, and paladin pair-up bonuses give Wyvern Lord Frederick!Inigo a nice boost. Gaius!Noire x Virion!Yarne is nice because it makes Noire hit hard and fast, and I just feel like if I want all my pairings to be nice on their own it's a pretty good way to go. Donnel!Noire x Virion!Yarne could work, but I feel like it would just be removing options from Noire for no real reason. A few of these can reach 100% DS, I know Severa x Gerome, I THINK whatever pair Laurent ends up in, and Noire x Yarne can. That's not too bad all things considered. Obviously not counting Lucina. Also I went with the +SPD asset over +SKL because with +SPD Morgan can reach 75 speed with only the base pair-up bonus as a Dark Flier. Thanks for sharing your team. The only thing I don't agree with is using Gregor!Laurent without any of Gregor's skills, but that's just me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ownagepuffs Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) Well, let's see about that. Lon'qu/Virion!Severa@Wyvern Lord@Gungnir (LB/GF/LF/Vengeance/All+2) x Stahl!Yarne@Berserker@5/15 Hector's Axe (LB/Agg/AF/All+2/Hit+20). Severa has a perfect Vengeance boost. I'll assume perfect RNG excluding crits. Severa's atk: 46(base) +2(mods) +10(LB) +10(Rally) +10(pairup) +5(LF) +2(All+2) +2(tonic) +23(Gungnir) +42(Vengeance) =152 -70 /4 =20 Yarne's atk: 50(base) +5(mods) +10(LB) +10(Rally) +10(Agg) +2(All+2) +2(tonic) +23(Hector's Axe) =112 -70 /4 =21 20+21+20+21 =82, which is more than enough for a KO (Severa has 12 HP of leeway- 146 Atk is required for 19 damage and she's got 152). Swap in Str+2 on Yarne over Hit+20 for more room, and upgrade to VGM for even more. Of course, this is assuming physical. Magical, you could paste him without a proc. Edit- never mind, you said <75 Spd. Still, I bet Henry!Nah's critstacking build could give a decent shot at taking him down without 75 Spd. Analyzing the same thing w/ Stahl!Gerome. Assuming perfect vengeance boost. Hero LQ!Severa w/ AS + 2, Swordfaire, LB, Galeforce, Vengeance 42 (base) + 2 (mod) + 10 (total pair up bonus from warrior) + 20 (Alm's Blade forge) + 5 (Swordfaire) + 10 (rallies) + 2 (tonic) + 2 (AS +2) + 42 (Vengeance) = 135 - 70/4 = 16 Warrior Stahl!Gerome w/ AS +2, Str +2, Aggressor, Bowfaire. 48 (base) + 6 (mod) + 10 (rallies) + 10 (aggressor) + 10 (LB) + 5 (Bowfaire) + 2 (tonic) + 2 (AS +2) + 2 (Str + 2) + 19 (Parthia) = 114 - 40/2 = 22 16 + 22 +16 +22 = 76 4 HP short of the KO. How unfortunate. Or you could just hit his puny 46 Res as a Dark flier, if you really needed to take him down. Regardless, he's a sniper without pass. You'll live. Considering that you're likely to be weakening him down with a sniper first it doesn't really seem that bad and without Vengeance, Severa won't do enough damage to ORKO. So yeah, if LQ!Severa can hit 75 Spd regardless, Stahl!Gerome not giving a speed boost is kinda irrelevant with or without braves. Edited January 18, 2015 by Ownagepuffs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alastor15243 Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) And how exactly do you plan to get a perfect vengeance boost before tackling the nightmare sniper? Is that even possible? What's the best boost it's physically possible to get using the surrounding enemies? I concede the point that magical units would be able to paste him, but I'm just curious if either of you feel that anything close to a perfect vengeance boost scenario is feasible. Edited January 18, 2015 by Alastor15243 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ownagepuffs Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 It was for the sake of example, really. LQ!Severa either uses Vengeance or Astra as a proc. She wouldn't be able to ORKO NS without a really high powered vengeance. Now all of this is under the assumption that he hooks up with Severa to begin with. He'd probably want Zerker if he was hooking up with a Sniper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckc22 Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) So I was looking at lucina vs cynthia for morgans mom and I was wondering why people tend to list lucina? They both create the same morgan. WIth a +spd - def Mamu x chrom!cynthia, either one can lead the pair with 100%ds and 75 speed. And it leaves Lucina's dual strike open to make an easier 100% ds pair somewhere else. Like a 100% DSVV with Laurent. Any reason Lucina gets recommended first? Edited January 18, 2015 by ckc22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alastor15243 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) So I was looking at lucina vs cynthia for morgans mom and I was wondering why people tend to list lucina? They both create the same morgan. WIth a +spd - def Mamu x chrom!cynthia, either one can lead the pair with 100%ds and 75 speed. And it leaves Lucina's dual strike open to make an easier 100% ds pair somewhere else. Like a 100% DSVV with Laurent. Any reason Lucina gets recommended first? Mostly because Lucina makes a better WIFE for the avatar rather than a better mother for Morgan. DS+ means she can achieve 100% DS, and with MaMU as an incredibly versatile hard support, that's extremely useful. I'd recommend against a +Spd MaMU. It won't provide him or Morgan any benefit in most situations. +Skl/Str - Def will give him and Morgan better skill and strength, which is more useful if you plan on making Morgan a sniper too. Edited January 19, 2015 by Alastor15243 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diabeasty Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Thanks for sharing your team. The only thing I don't agree with is using Gregor!Laurent without any of Gregor's skills, but that's just me. You could use armsthrift or something if you want. Gregor!Laurent is primarily for convenience, he frees up valuable space elsewhere since Gregor isn't too great of a father on a lot of kids. 3 MAG is still plenty, and Gregor gives him the only classes he really wants. Also, his Berserker set is pretty solid, he has +1 STR and has hex/anathema to patch up Berserker's low hitrate. If I were to make any changes to my own team I think I'd marry him to Morgan instead of Cynthia just to take full advantage of his ability to run that Berserker set. I'd recommend against a +Spd MaMU. It won't provide him or Morgan any benefit in most situations. +Skl/Str - Def will give him and Morgan better skill and strength, which is more useful if you plan on making Morgan a sniper too. I don't agree with that necessarily. I think it really depends on what you want Morgan to do. Switching to +SKL from +SPD gives you 2 STR and 2 SKL, and you lose 4 SPD. The 2 STR is fairly negligible, and if you aren't specifically reaching 100% DS with that 2 SKL it won't make too big of a difference. I like Morgan being able to hit 75 speed easily so I can have an extra 75 speed unit to fall back on. There are quite a few assets that can be good depending on what you want to do with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) Am I missing something? You've said before that you can train a unit from base to max in an hour, and if that was on Lunatic+ it can't be as bad as I'm thinking. The DLC maps aren't affected by Lunatic+ skills so you can still train there normally. So I was looking at lucina vs cynthia for morgans mom and I was wondering why people tend to list lucina? They both create the same morgan. WIth a +spd - def Mamu x chrom!cynthia, either one can lead the pair with 100%ds and 75 speed. And it leaves Lucina's dual strike open to make an easier 100% ds pair somewhere else. Like a 100% DSVV with Laurent. Any reason Lucina gets recommended first? But why would you want a 100% DS pair somewhere else? Avatar-M is kind of a really good hard support as-is. VVDS+ with Laurent? Avatar-M has the same Mag and can pull it off just as well. And how exactly do you plan to get a perfect vengeance boost before tackling the nightmare sniper? Is that even possible? What's the best boost it's physically possible to get using the surrounding enemies? It doesn't need to be perfect, she can have up to 13 HP for it to work. Anyway, here's two ways to do it. Method 1: Unpaired un-rallied Danced Severa@Wyvern's Atk: 46(base) +2(mods) +10(LB) +5(LF) +2(All+2) +2(S.Dance) +17(Gae Bolg) +1(WTA) =87 Def: 46(base) -1(mods) +10(LB) +2(All+2) +2(tonic) +2(S.Dance) +5(Gae Bolg) =66 The Wyrmslayer++ Trickster takes 11 damage from this. His Atk is 107 against Severa, counting his +5 Vengeance boost. This does 41 damage, and he'll attack again for 41 more on EP leaving Severa with 3 HP, which falls neatly inside her KO range for NS. Note: if using Lon'qu!Severa, don't apply the Spd tonic until after this battle. Otherwise she'll double him and increase his Vengeance damage, causing him to kill her. Virion!Severa is fine though. Method 2: Unboosted Severa's Atk x an unequipped Stahl!Yarne@Berserker: 46(base) +2(mods) +10(LB) +10(Rally) +10(pairup) +5(LF) +2(All+2) +2(tonic) =87. That's 92 with an unforged Bronze Lance. This does 18 damage to a normal Sniper, so Severa takes 18 back from Counter. On her next attack, she gets a +9 vengeance boost and does 23 damage. This needs to be a KO, so the Sniper needs to have between 39 and 61 damage already done to it. This should be a fairly standard range for weaker pairs, so it's easy to set up. After Galeforce, she switches to a +3/25 Silver Lance and attacks another Sniper. Her Atk is now 87(base) +18(S.Lance) +9(Vengeance) =114, so she does and takes 29 damage leaving her at 38 HP (+23 Vengeance boost). On the second attack, she does 36 damage, leaving her at 2 HP (in range for NS KO) and the Sniper with 15 HP. Olivia can then KO the Sniper (85 Atk is needed to OHKO him, which she hits perfectly- 40(base) +10(LB) +10(Rally) +2(tonic) +23(5/15 Alm's Blade) =85), activate Galeforce, and Dance Severa to get the NS KO. In both cases Severa still needs to get two consecutive DSes from Yarne, which is a little shaky as both of them are in low Skl classes. The setups are quite safe though as long. Also, 1HP is possible to reliably obtain using custom Rallybots and multi-turn setups, but those aren't independant of the rest of your team so I'm not focusing on them (bar Olivia of course because she's pretty standard). Edited January 19, 2015 by Czar_Yoshi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isetrh Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 The DLC maps aren't affected by Lunatic+ skills so you can still train there normally. Huh. I always just assumed they would apply, and never bothered to check. That changes everything. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat1803 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Huh. I always just assumed they would apply, and never bothered to check. That changes everything. Thanks. The only DLC maps affected by Lunatic+ are Roster Rescue (the huge Revenants) and Future Past 3 (not that you'd use either to grind lol). Otherwise difficulty is the same as Lunatic when it scales at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckc22 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Hmm so after more reading and looking at the pairups I think I've decided to switch to: Stahl!Gerome Henry!Nah (I like the versatility, and I think Nah gains more from hex/anathema than most since she has more space for skills, especially if you don't run a proc on her) **I can't decide between Virion!Brady/Libra!Yarne and Libra!Brady/Virion!Yarne though. Brady basically has everything he already needs, and the mods from virion are nicer (virion 3/4/3 vs libra 4/3/1; mag/skl/spd) Yarne basically needs some form of accuracy enhancement - both of them offer this and the mods are pretty even (virion 3/5/6 vs libra 3/4/4; str/skl/spd). Here I've seen mostly the latter - anyone want to explain why? Kellam and Vaike get left alone. When I run the two rejects through the list of dads just to check if they might knock anyone off the only potential things I see are 1) Fred!Inigo vs Kellam!Inigo, which changes his mods from 3/-1/4/0 str/mag/skl/spd to (kellam) 2/1/3/0 and gives him tomefaire, letting him be a more mixed lead. Running Fred through the list doesn't really return anything impressive, and he would be benched if Kellam came in. 2) Vaike could be a potentially interesting father for Laurent or Gerome, giving similar/better mods in both cases, for Gerome I feel like being locked into an axe class (would be his only faire) without any accuracy boost isn't ideal though and Stahl wins. For laurent he switches 1 mag->str and 1 skl-> spd to make them equal at 2/2/3/3 which is pretty moot. Theres a lot of class overlap and he doesn't really gain much, but he loses swordfaire and vantage so overall I find Gregor better/more versatile. Which leaves Vaike as a dead end/bench. So basically I think the only question I have left is Libra!Brady/Virion!Yarne vs Libra!Yarne/Virion!Brady and Fred!Inigo vs Kellam!Inigo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat1803 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) Libra!/Brady/Virion!Yarne vs Libra!Yarne/Virion!Brady: Personal preference really, though Libra gives extra Mag to Brady and Virion give extra Skl to Yarne. Plus, if preferred, Brady makes better use of Vengeance than Yarne. This, at least is why Libra usually goes on Brady for me. You could also make the decision based on what will benefit their partners most, or what you prefer outside of Apo. Fred!Inigo vs Kellam!Inigo: Fred gives Inigo more Avoid-boosting skills, if that matters to you. While Fred and Kellam both give Inigo Indoor Fighter (useless in Apo), Fred gives Inigo Outdoor Fighter, Lancebreaker, and Swordbreaker. Inigo already comes with Patience and Avo+10. If Dodgetanking doesn't matter to you (I can see why it wouldn't because Hawkeye enemies exist), see if that extra Skl from Fred makes a difference in any thresholds (DS%, Hit, etc) you might have. I can't answer whether Inigo should be a mixed lead or not since his mods are almost even. In most circumstances, I prefer Fred as a father over Kellam, and Inigo is one of them. This is another situation where I'd say your personal preference matters most - if you want Inigo to use Tomes, go ahead. If you want him to dodge every non-Hawkeye-thing in the game? Go ahead. Kellam!Inigo does have access to all three Dread Fighter weapon-faires, if that interests you. Despite my preferences, it's pretty hard to make a bad Luna Inigo. EDIT: Viron!Yarne also gets Bowfaire for more physical versatility - like running Warrior (more common) or BF Assassin (an option, but not a common one) Edited January 19, 2015 by Cat1803 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diabeasty Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) The only real reason I can see to run Libra!Yarne over Virion!Yarne is that Libra gives him a proc, if you actually want to have him in front. It could be fun actually, since Libra!Yarne would let you have a proc on everyone. Also, don't forget that Virion!Yarne can make a nice sniper for 100% DS setups. Kellam!Inigo is something I've considered a lot, but ultimately I think the only real reason you'd want him over Frederick is if Inigo is married to someone that has the option of going magical or physical. There are much better options for a magical Inigo, but in a pinch I think Kellam could work. Something that I really like about Frederick!Inigo is just how many different classes he has the ability to perform well in. He has a faire for literally every class he has access to, I believe. Edited January 19, 2015 by Diabeasty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alastor15243 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Neither of you pointed out that Virion!Yarne can do Hit+20 berserker, probably his best role. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ownagepuffs Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Since Hexathema works from the back, it benefits both the lead and support whereas Hit +20 only uses the support. Libra gives Yarne Dark Mage access for that so an argument could be made for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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