PAIRINGS The Pairing Thread

[Azz]

Sully x Donnel, Tharja x Gaius. Nah can't get galeforce and a proc unless the avatar is her father, and that causes its own problems. The best option is to make her a hard support, she does that pretty well.

Okay so pretty much stick with what I am doing.Got it.

Also this may sound pretty noobish of me but what is a proc?I always hear it but never knew what is was.

[Alastor15243]

Okay so pretty much stick with what I am doing.Got it.

Also this may sound pretty noobish of me but what is a proc?I always hear it but never knew what is was.

PROc. Programmed Random Occurrence. It's basically referring to skills that have a chance of activating in battle, like Luna or Ignis or Vengeance.

[Diabeasty]

Alright, so I'm trying to tweak my team a little for future use. I posted it here: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=42247&page=169#entry3549547

I'm considering swapping Gerome and Yarne. My reason for this is that with Yarne as her husband, Severa has a few extra options than she does with Gerome. She could then pull off the wyvern lord set, and she has a few options as a Hero with some of Yarne's non SPD boosting classes. This would leave Noire with Gerome. Gaius!Noire hits 69 speed without a SPD pairup, which is pretty much all she needs. A big reason I was pairing Yarne with Noire was so that Noire had the option of hitting 75 speed as a sniper if I sacrifice Astra for AS+2. Noire can hit 75 SPD without +SPD as an assassin, so if I really just want to load up on 75 SPD units, that's an option.

So basically, Severa gets the ability to have a 100% DS pair between her and Yarne with her as a Hero and Yarne as a sniper, she can run the famous Wyvern Lord set, and still can have the same bowfaire warrior pair-up that Gerome offered.

Noire can actually still reach 75 speed as a sniper with Gerome, but Gerome has to be an Assassin to do it. But outside of that, she loses that option unless she wants to reclass to an Assassin. But really, I doubt she'll miss it much. She also loses the ability to hit 100% DS, but I'm not that worried about that. What do you guys think? I'm pretty much just thinking aloud, but I'd just like to hear what other people think.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Diabeasty

[Azz]

Okay I know that it is not the best idea but just say Nah was horrible unless she had GF who should I pair up up with Gauis or Donnel?(Yeah no MU cause I dislike Mankete Morgan)

Obviously the other would go with Kjelle.

[Alastor15243]

Okay I know that it is not the best idea but just say Nah was horrible unless she had GF who should I pair up up with Gauis or Donnel?(Yeah no MU cause I dislike Mankete Morgan)

Obviously the other would go with Kjelle.

Donnel, if only because Nah isn't good with either of them, but Kjelle's WAY better with Gaius.

[Azz]

Donnel, if only because Nah isn't good with either of them, but Kjelle's WAY better with Gaius.

Okay thanks.

I was thinking about doing a run where I get everyone GF that can get it.I know Nah would not be very optimal compared to her other options but I still was going to do it.

So I was thinking for said run;

Chrom x Sumia=Lucina(Great Lord) & Cynthia(Falcon Knight)

Ricken x Lissa=Owain(Dread Fighter)

Frederick/Virion x Olivia=Inigo(Hero)(leaning more towards Freddy)

Henry/Libra x Maribelle=Brady(Sage)(leaning more towards Henry for more class options even though they aren't the best)

Gaius x Sully=Kjelle(Paladin)(For GF,sadly no Armsthrift but eh)

Stahl x Cordelia=Severa(Dark Flier and/or Falcon Knight)

Vaike/Gregor x Cherche=Gerome(I really don't know)(Wyvern Lord)

MU x Tharja=Morgan & Noire(Both are gonna be Nosfertanks or something else)(Both gets GF also MU is gonna be +Mag/-Luk)

Lon'qu x Panne=Yarne(Berserker for offense or Griffon Rider for support)

Gregor/Libra x Miriel=Laurent(Sage)(I also have no idea)

Donnel x Nowi=Nah(Hero or maybe Manakete)(For GF and also she gets Armsthrift and Aptitude)

Okay I know that a lot of the pairings are optimal thanks to reading the topic except Nah and Kjelle since she is better with Donnel but yeah.

Also the classes are for Apo.(They may not be optimal and if not please leave suggestions)

Another thing,who should the kids marry?

I know one will be left without a partner but at least everyone will have one galeforcer.Thinking:

Lucina x Inigo/Gerome(probably not the best cause I don't know how this works but I like the pairing in genera,also the reason Gerome cause str)(I am also considering letting Lucina fly solo cause I like her solo ending)

Severa x Owian(If I do make Svear a Dark Flier,Owain and her will have a pretty good Mag stat(I think))

Kjelle x Brady(I like this pairing cause I think it is nice yeah(Probably not a good reason))

Cynthia x Inigo/Gerome(Basically if Lucina goes solo Inigo,if not Gerome)

Nah x Yarne(basically I like their supports and they are both gonna be str mainly)

Noire x Laurent(for the mag)

As for Moragn,she will go with Gerome if Lucina goes solo and if Lucina does not Moragn will stay with her MU for support.

[Alastor15243]

Just a heads up, this is a pretty bad idea. Galeforce is NOT the most important thing to Nah, as Galeforce has other skills required to make it work, namely the ability to do significant amounts of damage up front. She's much better off just being a hard support. The only Nah that will be more effective than, say, a Henry, Vaike or Stahl !Nah is an Avatar!Nah. Neither Donnel nor Gaius can make Nah a good unit.

[Azz]

Just a heads up, this is a pretty bad idea. Galeforce is NOT the most important thing to Nah, as Galeforce has other skills required to make it work, namely the ability to do significant amounts of damage up front. She's much better off just being a hard support. The only Nah that will be more effective than, say, a Henry, Vaike or Stahl !Nah is an Avatar!Nah. Neither Donnel nor Gaius can make Nah a good unit.

Okay.

Thanks for all your help Al.

[Alastor15243]

Okay.

Thanks for all your help Al.

np.

[Azz]

(This probably counts as spam but eh)

So these are my definite pairings and classes for Apo:(Note I am not just using kids and parents.More then likely I will use Palla and eventually Katrina as Rally and Staff bots)

(All children will have Limit Breaker)

Chrom x Sumia=

Lucina-

Final Class-Great Lord

Skills-Rightful King

Aether

Galeforce

Lancefaire

Cynthia-

Final Class-Falcon Knight

Skills-Aether

Galeforce

Lancefaire or Aegis or Pavise

Pavise or Aegis

Ricken x Lissa=

Owain-

Final Class-Dread Fighter

Skills-Aggressor

Luna

Galeforce

Astra or Tomefaire

Azz(MU +Str/-Luk) x Olivia=

Inigo-

Final Class-Hero

Skills-Luna

Galeforce

Ignis

Armsthrift

Morgan-

Final Class-Sorcerer

Skills-Galeforce

Vengeance

Vantage

Armsthrift

Henry x Maribelle=

Brady-

Final Class-Sage

Skills-Galeforce

Tomefaire

Luna

Vengeance

Donnel x Sully=

Kjelle-

Final Class-Paladin

Skills-Luna

Pavise

Galeforce

Dual Support +

Stahl x Cordelia=

Severa-

Final Class-Dark Flier

Skills-Vengeance

Luna

Armsthrift

Galeforce

Gregor x Cherche=

Gerome-

Final Class-Wyvern Lord

Skills-Dual Support +

Armsthrift

Axefaire

Astra or Sol

Lon'qu x Panne=

Yarne-

Final Class-Griffon Rider

Skills-Deliverer

Axefaire

Astra

Rally Strength

Libra x Miriel=

Laurent-

Final Class-Sage

Skills-Dual Support +

Tomefaire

Renewal

Rally Magic

Gaius x Tharja=

Noire-

Final Class-Sniper or Assassin

Skills-Galeforce

Bowfaire or Swordfaire

Astra

Luna

Vaike x Nah=

Nah-

Final Class-Manakete(Not gonna use Nah in Apo)

Skills-Armsthrift

Sol

Luna

Deliverer

Thoughts?

[Czar_Yoshi]

(This probably counts as spam but eh)

If you're worried about post length, you can use

tags to collapse long-winded numbers, or use a single-line format for your team so it takes up less space. Ex:

Sumia!Lucina@GL (LB/RK/Aether/GF/LF) x Lucina's husband in the same format.

That format contains everything anyone needs to know (add @+Forge Weapon after the class if it matters, and +Asset/-Flaw before Avatar's name if he/she is present) and is very nice and compact.

Anyway the only change you really need to make is to give Lucina DS+, since it's like the best skill in the game and only she and Chrom get it. Aether+Luna also outdamages Aether+RK or Aether+Faire by a very significant margin, so consider that too. As for the others, possible (but not necessary) improvements include:

Avatar-M can't get GF- likely you meant Agg instead. Ignis and Luna do nothing from the back, by the way.

Inigo will see a much larger damage boost from Agg and a proc over two procs, if you like.

VV Sorcs tend to be a liability in Apo. That Morgan has a fairly high chance of being responsible for any deaths you incur- consider leaving her out or completely changing her class and skillset for this. Outside of Apo she's fine.

Brady: Stacking Luna and Vengeance tends to give you both lower and less predictable damage output than either one of them alone. Definitely replace one with Agg- or even nothing at all.

Severa: same as Brady. Give her something else. You also may want to consider another class, as Stahl!Severa has a Mag mod of -1 and no Tomefaire, making magic using classes extremely underwhelming on her. If you do want to stay in DF, switch to Virion!Severa, as he gives her 1 more Mag, 1 more Skl, 2 more Spd and Tomefaire, without hurting any relevant stats.

Gerome: Astra and Sol won't do anything in the back. Consider Agg instead.

Yarne: Griffons are pretty much directly inferior to Wyvern Lords. If you really want Yarne in an Axe class with 8 Mov, consider that instead. Astra won't see much use due to being in the back either. Also, using Ralies on your combat units is completely redundant (since you've got all of them on Rallybots anyway).

Laurent: Doesn't want Rally Mag by the same token as Yarne. Renewal won't do anything in the back either.

Nah: Dragonstones are much cheaper and have more uses than forged weapons, so AT on Nah doesn't actually make as big of a difference on her as you'd think. You may see more use out of a +Avo skill like Lucky 7 to boost her tankiness instead.

Palla and Katarina both make great Rallybots, but you only actually need one of them, since any other Einherjar (or a 1st gen unit like Lissa or Sumia) can get a full compliment of Rallies bar Str themselves. Definitely don't hold off on getting two Rallybots until beating N.Apo.

Also, do keep in mind that you can only deploy 20 units in Apo. 13 children, Avatar, Chrom, Olivia and Sumia is 17, leaving you room for just three Staff/Rallybots, something you're going to want a lot of.

[Azz]

If you're worried about post length, you can use

tags to collapse long-winded numbers, or use a single-line format for your team so it takes up less space. Ex:

Sumia!Lucina@GL (LB/RK/Aether/GF/LF) x Lucina's husband in the same format.

That format contains everything anyone needs to know (add @+Forge Weapon after the class if it matters, and +Asset/-Flaw before Avatar's name if he/she is present) and is very nice and compact.

Anyway the only change you really need to make is to give Lucina DS+, since it's like the best skill in the game and only she and Chrom get it. Aether+Luna also outdamages Aether+RK or Aether+Faire by a very significant margin, so consider that too. As for the others, possible (but not necessary) improvements include:

Avatar-M can't get GF- likely you meant Agg instead. Ignis and Luna do nothing from the back, by the way.

Inigo will see a much larger damage boost from Agg and a proc over two procs, if you like.

VV Sorcs tend to be a liability in Apo. That Morgan has a fairly high chance of being responsible for any deaths you incur- consider leaving her out or completely changing her class and skillset for this. Outside of Apo she's fine.

Brady: Stacking Luna and Vengeance tends to give you both lower and less predictable damage output than either one of them alone. Definitely replace one with Agg- or even nothing at all.

Severa: same as Brady. Give her something else. You also may want to consider another class, as Stahl!Severa has a Mag mod of -1 and no Tomefaire, making magic using classes extremely underwhelming on her. If you do want to stay in DF, switch to Virion!Severa, as he gives her 1 more Mag, 1 more Skl, 2 more Spd and Tomefaire, without hurting any relevant stats.

Gerome: Astra and Sol won't do anything in the back. Consider Agg instead.

Yarne: Griffons are pretty much directly inferior to Wyvern Lords. If you really want Yarne in an Axe class with 8 Mov, consider that instead. Astra won't see much use due to being in the back either. Also, using Ralies on your combat units is completely redundant (since you've got all of them on Rallybots anyway).

Laurent: Doesn't want Rally Mag by the same token as Yarne. Renewal won't do anything in the back either.

Nah: Dragonstones are much cheaper and have more uses than forged weapons, so AT on Nah doesn't actually make as big of a difference on her as you'd think. You may see more use out of a +Avo skill like Lucky 7 to boost her tankiness instead.

Palla and Katarina both make great Rallybots, but you only actually need one of them, since any other Einherjar (or a 1st gen unit like Lissa or Sumia) can get a full compliment of Rallies bar Str themselves. Definitely don't hold off on getting two Rallybots until beating N.Apo.

Also, do keep in mind that you can only deploy 20 units in Apo. 13 children, Avatar, Chrom, Olivia and Sumia is 17, leaving you room for just three Staff/Rallybots, something you're going to want a lot of.

Thanks for the help(I keep forgetting about aggressor).I also don't plan on using all the children in Apo just some of the better ones.Anyways thanks a lot.

[astrophys]

Severa: same as Brady. Give her something else. You also may want to consider another class, as Stahl!Severa has a Mag mod of -1 and no Tomefaire, making magic using classes extremely underwhelming on her. If you do want to stay in DF, switch to Virion!Severa, as he gives her 1 more Mag, 1 more Skl, 2 more Spd and Tomefaire, without hurting any relevant stats.

While its true that its far worse than a character with a positive mod + Tomefaire, the fact remains that EVEN -1 Mag mod characters can do well enough on Apotheosis with Limit Breaker and Rallies.

Example:

I ran a Dark Flier Cordelia supported by a Gradmaster (+MAG/-SKL) Avatar in the Secret Route of Apotheosis as one of my three attack pairs. As we know, Cordelia has as -1 Mag mod and no Tomefaire, just like this Severa does. Yet this pair I ran, which was "sub-optimal" by all means ended up doing quite fine. It was even capable of reaching 75 speed with the All Stats+2 skill.

So it really doesn't matter all that much. While that magic might be underwhelming, its more that than sufficient.

[Kamui vi Britannia]

While the magic may be sufficient, it wastes Stahl as a parent and he isn't even using Virion.

[Czar_Yoshi]

While its true that its far worse than a character with a positive mod + Tomefaire, the fact remains that EVEN -1 Mag mod characters can do well enough on Apotheosis with Limit Breaker and Rallies.

Pairs can do well on Apo even without LB/Rally, so I'm not seeing your point.

In Endgame's old guide to minmaxing he links a video of someone playing Apo using only Sages x DF couples, often forcing non-magical units into those classes and dropping ones who can't do it at all. He clears it pretty easily, but at the cost of being nearly unwatchable due to tedium.

Not playing to a unit's strengths is fine and can still (and maybe even more often does) result in an interesting run. Deliberately going for builds you know/have heard work and trying to put them on units who aren't meant for them often doesn't. The key difference here is your reasoning: "it works" is never a good reason to do something in Apo, even though "just because" is.

But since this team hasn't been made yet and is open for (and requesting) input, why would you not suggest a statistical improvement with no drawbacks?

[Alastor15243]

Hey Czar, in your opinion, with a Yarne!Morgan Assassin and a Stahl!Nah Sniper couple, would Lon'qu, Virion or Gregor be a better father for Yarne in the long run?

Lon'qu!Yarne!Morgan makes Nah capable of reaching 100% DS in front without giving up Luna or compromising Morgan's build. (Aesthetically, he has my favorite hair color of the three (Virion's probably would be if it didn't look so goofy on Morgan) and is highly OCD satisfying (a round 10 bonus to skill)).

Virion!Yarne!Morgan will mean the best Yarne of the three for FeMU (as long as I don't mind sacrificing a 100% DS capable unit).

Gregor!Yarne!Morgan will have 2 more strength than either of the previous two and this will make for a slightly better damage output.

All three of them have enough speed to reach 75 with a bland +3 pairup bonus.

Which would you choose?

[Azz]

I want to thank everyone for their help with my pairings and while I will not be changing the pairings I am still open to final class and skill set options.

[astrophys]

But since this team hasn't been made yet and is open for (and requesting) input, why would you not suggest a statistical improvement with no drawbacks?

What I was getting at is that while statistical improvement is possible (even by significant margins), it isn't particularly NEEDED either.

Therefore, this emphasizes the vast degree of flexibility that one has.

You don't need to make the optimal pairings. If he likes a certain couple together and they produce a certain units then that units will STILL do fine.

This yields a much wider wide space to mess around with things like shipping, "waifu" considerations, and other generally suboptimal team and still do perfectly fine.

So yes, something like the earlier examples of Stahl!Severa and Cordelia being bad at magic are true…. they're 10 points behinds a +Magic asset Tomefaire Avatar, for example. But even in spite of this they still do perfectly fine on the map.

Granted, I've assumed DLC, but I would imaging that a good fraction of Apotheosis players have and are using the Limit Breaker skill from Rogues and Reedemers 3 anyways. And if the player in question isn't playing high end DLC it will matter even less given how strong your characters get in relation to the enemies. Granted, there is always the no-Limit Break challenge run, but that's really just the really hardcore who do that and is probably not typical for Apotheosis.

So if he wants to use Stahl!Severa in Apotheosis, even if in a magical capacity, he'll probably do fine. He can use such units in confidence.

As such, its pointless to worry that much about things or about technical improvements that just result in overkill.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Hey Czar, in your opinion, with a Yarne!Morgan Assassin and a Stahl!Nah Sniper couple, would Lon'qu, Virion or Gregor be a better father for Yarne in the long run?

Since they're pretty even in the long run (not considering father rarity), I'd go Virion because he's got the most interesting class set for non-Apo postgame.

Everything considered for Apo only, I'd take Gregor as he's the least in demand of the three. Other than those two things, they're still perfectly even.

As such, its pointless to worry that much about things or about technical improvements that just result in overkill.

Considering as just about any team can do just fine in No Holds Barred Apo if the player knows how to play, that statement could apply to every optimization ever. What makes Severa's class more (or in this case less) important than, say, running Rallies on Hard Supports?

I want to thank everyone for their help with my pairings and while I will not be changing the pairings I am still open to final class and skill set options.

If you want to stick with a high Mov Stahl!Severa, she makes a very nice Paladin and is the only Severa who can reasonably do so.

[Alastor15243]

If I pick Gregor, should I keep Luna on Nah despite the fact that she can no longer achieve 100% DS or can you think of a skill that would be better for her to go with her LB/AS+2/Str+2/Bowfaire?

[Czar_Yoshi]

Nah is a Sniper, right? She's never going to be in a situation where a whiffed DS would kill her thanks to Longbows, so she should probably go Luna for the slightly higher average damage.

Of course, even though the fathers would be set you can still change skillsets midgame so if you're unsure you could try out both and see which you like better.

[Flosukemaru]

Hey,

I have a question about Morgans Class. Witch Class is better? Greatmaster or Great Knight? I play the Hard Classic mode and i will playing the DLCs. When Morgan Great Knight, I will Walhart for father

I hope,you can help me.

PS: sorry,my English is not the perfect

[Ownagepuffs]

Grandmaster has lower movement, but better offense due to having access to Magic.

I'd say Grandmaster.

[Flosukemaru]

a 2 Question,

Wehre ist the best Mother/ (fahter) for Morgan and witch is in this respect the best class for Morgan?

[Ownagepuffs]

Morgan is too flexible for a best. General purpose answer is Lucina.