Is it possible to make an Est that's a high tier character?

[Anouleth]

Like I said earlier, you can do this or just make him a staff bot, since if you some how didn't train Laura, Rhys, or Miccy his only competition for late game stave user is Loliver, which is well, bad since you're required to bring Miccy into the final chapter and there's only one rexaura.

Actually, there's also Bastian and Elincia who are both serviceable staffbots. And if you didn't train Micaiah, then she won't be able to use Rexaura anyway.

[Nicolas]

Zeiss is pretty nice Est. Of in next FE be Zeiss ++, he/she would be in top tier.

[Chiki]

This, definitely this. By Est archetype, I understand a recruitable unit that appears by lategame, that is underleveled, has regular~low bases, has high growths (and thus, the potential of being OP) but at base can't stand to enemies strong by then.

I may consider them being AT LEAST by Mid Tier because availability and contributions weigh too much for placing a unit, and they barely contribute only if you speed-train them, feed them kills or assign them Paragon. One thing is to make them usable and another thing is to place them in high tier. An example is like making Pelleas get to lv 12~ with Paragon by 4-5 and make him competent for endgame.

This is just wrong. There are an infinite number of things that can fit into the definition of an Est and still make the unit high tier.

An Est could have Paragon and Warp and a very high staff rank and be a pretty good unit (I'm looking at you, Sara) in a game where there's no other practical Warp users (Sara would've been better had she been in a game without many staff users). An Est could have the highest move in the game and Paragon--with some babying they'd be the best option for shaving turns. And so on.

[Anouleth]

This is just wrong. There are an infinite number of things that can fit into the definition of an Est and still make the unit high tier.

An Est could have Paragon and Warp and a very high staff rank and be a pretty good unit (I'm looking at you, Sara) in a game where there's no other practical Warp users (Sara would've been better had she been in a game without many staff users). An Est could have the highest move in the game and Paragon--with some babying they'd be the best option for shaving turns. And so on.

If an Est has high base staff rank or the highest base move or one of the best skills in the game at base, then they don't really have low bases, do they? The whole point of an Est is that when they first join, they're very weak and not useful. That's what makes them all so awful. Even Tormod, the closest to being good Ests have ever gotten, is not really a true Est because with BEXP he doesn't have a period of being very weak. He's just a unit that is expensive in terms of resources rather than a unit that is initially weak. By that definition, even FE10 Jill could be interpreted as an Est since she requires a massive stat dump to be useful.

[Quintessence]

Like I said earlier, you can do this or just make him a staff bot, since if you some how didn't train Laura, Rhys, or Miccy his only competition for late game stave user is Loliver, which is well, bad since you're required to bring Miccy into the final chapter and there's only one rexaura.

True, however he doesn't deserve being in high tier just because he can be a good replacement for this or that. I mean, a unit being in high tier means that he is a priority pick over most of the cast of characters. And no one's going to pick Pelleas over Elincia/Soren/Ilyana or other units that contribute much more than him.

This is just wrong. There are an infinite number of things that can fit into the definition of an Est and still make the unit high tier.

An Est could have Paragon and Warp and a very high staff rank and be a pretty good unit (I'm looking at you, Sara) in a game where there's no other practical Warp users (Sara would've been better had she been in a game without many staff users). An Est could have the highest move in the game and Paragon--with some babying they'd be the best option for shaving turns. And so on.

I apologize for my inability to argue here because haven't played her game (FE5 right?), but I can speak about units like Est, Nino, Pelleas, Vika, Kurthnaga, Ena.

How is Nino going High Tier, for example. She requires a stupid amount of valuable resources that not even with rigging the 20 turns in Nights of Farewells can make her jump to that tier. Even if most of your units can be capped (in terms of lv/exp), focusing entirely on her is just training someone that, at best, will occupy the job of filler and carry on secondary tasks (like killing a couple of enemies), and she'll never reach rescue/warp staves.

Vika: she won't even get to S rank, she can get Adept+Tear and bunch of good lvs, but she is useless by 4-4, not even sp nor move nor flight will lift her up.

Kurthnaga/Ena: Kurth being better than Ena in terms of routing enemies. They can get an insane combo like Paragon/Resolve/Wrath/Provoke and actually TRY to be good, but simply no.

I mean, the definition of Est is inherently contrary to being in high tiers.

edit: actually, I doubt the dragons are Ests, so you may just ignore it.

Edited August 16, 2013 by Quintessence

[Chiki]

True, however he doesn't deserve being in high tier just because he can be a good replacement for this or that. I mean, a unit being in high tier means that he is a priority pick over most of the cast of characters. And no one's going to pick Pelleas over Elincia/Soren/Ilyana or other units that contribute much more than him.

I apologize for my inability to argue here because haven't played her game (FE5 right?), but I can speak about units like Est, Nino, Pelleas, Vika, Kurthnaga, Ena.

How is Nino going High Tier, for example. She requires a stupid amount of valuable resources that not even with rigging the 20 turns in Nights of Farewells can make her jump to that tier. Even if most of your units can be capped (in terms of lv/exp), focusing entirely on her is just training someone that, at best, will occupy the job of filler and carry on secondary tasks (like killing a couple of enemies), and she'll never reach rescue/warp staves.

Vika: she won't even get to S rank, she can get Adept+Tear and bunch of good lvs, but she is useless by 4-4, not even sp nor move nor flight will lift her up.

Kurthnaga/Ena: Kurth being better than Ena in terms of routing enemies. They can get an insane combo like Paragon/Resolve/Wrath/Provoke and actually TRY to be good, but simply no.

I mean, the definition of Est is inherently contrary to being in high tiers.

Just look at Sara. She comes relatively late in the game, she can use Warp right off the bat iirc and she has Paragon. This is in a game where stats don't matter much either. She's amazing!

If an Est has high base staff rank or the highest base move or one of the best skills in the game at base, then they don't really have low bases, do they? The whole point of an Est is that when they first join, they're very weak and not useful. That's what makes them all so awful. Even Tormod, the closest to being good Ests have ever gotten, is not really a true Est because with BEXP he doesn't have a period of being very weak. He's just a unit that is expensive in terms of resources rather than a unit that is initially weak. By that definition, even FE10 Jill could be interpreted as an Est since she requires a massive stat dump to be useful.

Just because a unit joins late doesn't mean they can't improve in the space of one chapter.

Imagine an Est who takes one chapter to improve, who has Paragon, who has 100% in all growths and who has 11 move despite:

1. Not being very useful when they first join.

2. Not having very high base stats

Then the Est would go into high tier, because the Est would shave a lot of turns with reliability after one chapter of babying--because the Est is the best one there is.

[Quintessence]

Just look at Sara. She comes relatively late in the game, she can use Warp right off the bat iirc and she has Paragon. This is in a game where stats don't matter much either. She's amazing!

Just because a unit joins late doesn't mean they can't improve in the space of one chapter.

Imagine an Est who takes one chapter to improve, who has Paragon, who has 100% in all growths and who has 11 move despite:

1. Not being very useful when they first join.

2. Not having very high base stats

Then the Est would go into high tier, because the Est would shave a lot of turns with reliability after one chapter of babying--because the Est is the best one there is.

But I don't know anything about Sara :

Now, onto the "imaginary Est", we should consider how many chapters must be cleared til endgame and if any other units that appeared earlier are able to shave a fair amount of turns. If between a cast of, say, 50 units, only 3 of them are able to shave turns reliably excluding the Est, AND there are like 7 chapters more to clear the game, then the Est can potentially go to high tiers ONLY IF picking her over early game units won't affect your TC considerably comparing it to a drafter that got an early game unit instead of the Est. Yet, by those means, I doubt I'll consider it an Est, or then the general definition of Est should be rearranged. But, imho, Ests have no redemption (on getting to high tiers, of course).

[Chiki]

She comes at the end of the 35th chapter in a 40 chapter game. Est gains 4 move and flight upon promotion and this saves 20 turns from the 3 chapters after the one she got babied on.

[Quintessence]

Then, she'll save the Ests from doom. Maybe it's coincidential that all Ests, or at least most of them, aren't recommendable for efficiency/LTC playthroughs.

edit: however, I see it as an ideal.

Edited August 16, 2013 by Quintessence

[Chiki]

The question, though, was asking if Ests can ever be high tier. You don't even need to make a hypothetical Est up to answer yes; just look at Sara.

Yes, the definition of Est certainly doesn't help, but it doesn't 100% prevent it either.

[General Horace]

Sara can't use Warp at base, but she has B staves, and if she gains three levels and promotes, she can.

If only Sleuf didn't exist, she'd be perfect. I guess on B route she is, and I guess she has 5 move stars to his three.

That being said I don't really think she'd be high tier. There's already Safy, Salem, and Sleuf that can warp, and Tina with her PRF staves that are debatebly nearly as useful, then you get Sety too, and a promoted Linoan I guess. Just too many staff users.

Edited August 16, 2013 by General Horace

[Constable Reggie]

Alternatively, there's Renee, who joins 3/4ths in the game at level 13 with somewhat mediocre stats.. and is (arguably) top of top tier for tearring saga

[dondon151]

That being said I don't really think she'd be high tier. There's already Safy, Salem, and Sleuf that can warp, and Tina with her PRF staves that are debatebly nearly as useful, then you get Sety too, and a promoted Linoan I guess. Just too many staff users.

it depends on if you're trying to SSS rank or not. you need to rely on her pretty heavily for an SSS rank run (especially if you do the forest route).

[Espinosa]

Alternatively, there's Renee, who joins 3/4ths in the game at level 13 with somewhat mediocre stats.. and is (arguably) top of top tier for tearring saga

She helps you warpskip 4 maps out of 40, so not really.

[Constable Reggie]

She helps you warpskip 4 maps out of 40, so not really.

That's what I tried to argue, but apparently being able to warpskip a few chapters means you're better than Narron and Raffin.

[Espinosa]

That's what I tried to argue, but apparently being able to warpskip a few chapters means you're better than Narron and Raffin.

Yes, it does. Want to also try arguing that Swordmaster Mia shaving off a turn should place her higher than Kieran (with his replicable combat) on the PoR tier list? Even Olwen doesn't go that far (he just proposes Mia over Zihark), yet this is the faulty logic at work here.

You're also severely sandbagging Narron/Raffin implying:

1) bosskilling is completely trivial and anyone can do it (most of the time it is not).

2) flight utility is not valuable (there's not a single reason not to promote Raffin in spite of the bow being pretty damn good in this game).

3) a mounted unit's ability to solo the map has no impact on a unit's value.

Oh wait, you weren't voicing your point of view? The first post makes it sound like your opinion.

Anyway, AquiIae's tier list for the game is the only one that makes sense on this forum; the rest haven't received proper attention and discussion and aren't credible.

[Constable Reggie]

Er, did you both argue against my supposed view, then admit that you misunderstood my view in the same post?

Don Draper's tier list has more discussion than Aquilae's, while also being more recent, so I'm not sure how the more recent one isn't credible.

[Baldrick]

No, he thought you believed Renee > Narron/Raffin, then realised you didn't.

[Constable Reggie]

How is that any different from what I asked

[Espinosa]

I can make a joke tier list that will be recent and have people argue with me but to little avail; won't make it the more credible tier list. Archayanami and DD's tier lists should've bumped the old one (which still makes more sense even in spite of preceding the recenter LTC attempts from me and dondon by a long time) if they felt they had something to add.

[Constable Reggie]

So basically you're disregarding all but Aquilae's tier list because you don't like them

[Espinosa]

So basically you're disregarding all but Aquilae's tier list because you don't like them

Because they are very inaccurate. You're welcome to challenge this statement.

[Baldrick]

How is that any different from what I asked

misunderstanding a view isn't the same as misattributing it. I think I misinterpreted you and you meant the latter when you said the former. we.

[Constable Reggie]

It depends on the playstyle. Aquilae's looks like it focuses more on recruitment costs, while DD's has more emphasis on staff usage, uniquity and movement. I personally think DD's is more up to snuff, aside from Renee > Narron. Rishel, Roger, Billford, and Norton spots, just as a few examples, bother me in Aquilae's. Rishel being the sixth best character in the game is ridiculous

To tie this into relevancy, I suppose you could consider Rishel an est-like character (???), and he's pretty good if solely for the fact that he gets instant +10 def and 1-3 range.

Edited August 16, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Terrador]

WRT the OP: Honestly, the only way I can see an Est archetype (defined for the purposes of this post as: late jointime, high potential for growth, liability in combat at base) being truly high-tier is contributing in a way that's very difficult, if at all possible, to replicate. A combat-focused Est isn't going to stand out in a game where combat can be handled without much difficulty, nor is an Est with staff rank going to stand out in a game with reclassing. Naturally, if this unique contribution relies on the unit's growth, that babying should be a relatively efficient process. That said, if you can invest without massive opportunity cost (in particular turns should be spared, but depending on the game, blowing a lot of dosh would be alright) to receive a contribution that is turn-consuming, difficult, or just plain impossible to replicate could make an Est high-tier.