Is it possible to make an Est that's a high tier character?

[CT075]

it's less that fe5's stat caps don't matter because they're fe5 stat caps and more that they don't matter because it actually affects unit comparisons (in particular, unit growths are toned so that these caps aren't being hit at level 15/0 like in some games in the series)

base sara + promo has 14 speed. 10/6 othin (not entirely unlikely for that point in the game, depending on how much you've been rotating for fatigue it could potentially be more) has roughly 16-17 speed. this isn't such a huge difference, all things considered

sure, sara's speed blows compared to people like machua (who actually does capram speed at level 15/0 iirc), but that's an extreme case. hell, she's only -1 speed from /20 dagda (ha ha dagda)

i don't mean to undermine your experience or anything, but have you actually played FE5? sara's stats may look bad compared to your army on paper but in my experience she actually isn't that far behind

i don't really subscribe to archetypes anyway so i'm not really sure hwy i'm having this argument

Edited August 18, 2013 by CT075

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

I actually wondered if "Give her Physic and make her act as a generic priest" is counted as "babying"

[Chiki]

base sara + promo has 14 speed.

But this whole thread I've been talking about how we have to consider how an Est is before babying. It's 9 speed.

You can compare them. A level 10 Asvel (I'm guessing that's what he is by the time Sara shows up) has 18.8 magic, 20 skill and 20 speed.

It does affect unit comparisons, but even then Sara's bases are only around half of Asvel's. And that's not even considering HP, def, mov and build.

i don't mean to undermine your experience or anything, but have you actually played FE5? sara's stats may look bad compared to your army on paper but in my experience she actually isn't that far behind

In my experience all my units have their stats capped by the time she shows up, but I don't see why this should matter.

[Constable Reggie]

Woah woah since when is Asvel reaching 20/10 so early (granted the stats aren't much different than 20/1 asvel), also build is irrelevant since neither of them are going to be capturing ever and it doesn't affect as

I don't think using physic staves is really babying, since you don't really need to slow down for her when she's using it. Also iirc she only needs to use physic like 3/4 times before she can promote.

Edited August 18, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Espinosa]

I'd say any unusually high level of attention is babying whether it impacts how fast we go or not. There's a difference between babying Wendy and "babying" someone like Zeiss, though.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Asvel is usually 10/4 there IIRC

"I'd say any unusually high level of attention is babying whether it impacts how fast we go or not"

Sara did not exactly hinder our progression isn't she?

CH18 is definitely not skipped on an SSS run, so she get tons of healing opportunity with Physic

CH19, it depends on where she get the position

CH20 is somewhat of a combat heavy map

All you need to "sacrifice" here is a deployment slot for an extra combat unit. Either way, she is basically a low maintenance staffbot

Edited August 18, 2013 by Salesmaster MU

[Chiki]

"I'd say any unusually high level of attention is babying whether it impacts how fast we go or not"

Sara did not exactly hinder our progression isn't she?

He said "whether or not." And I agree.

I mean, I have to baby Jill in my HM LTC playthrough, even though it didn't cost any turns to do that.

[dondon151]

Uh, you just quoted the definition where I said "player."

but i don't care about your definition of an est

honestly, you are completely missing the point. the est archetype is a foolish way to categorize units among games. right now you and i are arguing about whether sara has "bad" base stats. there is no value in comparing stats between player units because that yields zero indication about the units' performances. your mode of comparison is purely academic and comes to no useful conclusions about the unit in question.

[Chiki]

but i don't care about your definition of an est

honestly, you are completely missing the point. the est archetype is a foolish way to categorize units among games. right now you and i are arguing about whether sara has "bad" base stats. there is no value in comparing stats between player units because that yields zero indication about the units' performances. your mode of comparison is purely academic and comes to no useful conclusions about the unit in question.

"No useful conclusions therefore you are wrong." That's the most common counterargument people use against philosophers nowadays. Just because the conclusion isn't useful for you doesn't mean it isn't incorrect. Horrible reasoning.

[Espinosa]

Can't you see that those underappreciated ideas will be a goldmine for LTCers in decades to come dondon

[dondon151]

"No useful conclusions therefore you are wrong."

lol, please point out to me where i said that.

[Constable Reggie]

That's the most common counterargument people use against philosophers nowadays.

since when did you start getting so obsessed with philosophy (let alone constantly attributing it in a forum about a niche video game series)

I'd say any unusually high level of attention is babying whether it impacts how fast we go or not. There's a difference between babying Wendy and "babying" someone like Zeiss, though.

Well, even by that standards Sara isn't really babied, since she doesn't need a high level attention to do well, or promote and do super well.

[Chiki]

lol, please point out to me where i said that.

It was implied in your post. But if that wasn't what you meant, saying "this is pointless" isn't a counterargument to anything. I don't see why we can't discuss concepts unless dondon tells us to.

[dondon151]

It was implied in your post. But if that wasn't what you meant, saying "this is pointless" isn't a counterargument to anything. I don't see why we can't discuss concepts unless dondon tells us to.

"sara's stats are bad relative to other player units" is not necessarily synonymous with "sara's stats are bad!" that was precisely what i meant.

Edited August 18, 2013 by dondon151

[Chiki]

"sara's stats are bad relative to other player units" is not necessarily synonymous with "sara's stats are bad!" that was precisely what i meant.

This isn't a true statement. You can see this yourself if you think about it.

Consider someone who lives in Jupiter and has never met anyone else before. Imagine him saying "my stats are bad!" Do you think that would make sense? No. A man who lives on Jupiter, who has never met anyone else, would not be able to say he's bad in anything at all. When you say "my stats are bad," the only way you can do that is by comparing yourself to others.

"Bad" is a relative term, just like "tall" or "big." You can't say you have bad stats without knowing about other people's stats. Nor can you call yourself "tall" if you've never met anyone else before. It's impossible.

And since I already pointed out the absurdity of comparing an Est to enemy units (because Ests can be stronger than enemy units a lot of the time, so they can only be compared to player units), the only option we have left is comparing Est to your own units.

Edited August 18, 2013 by Chiki

[dondon151]

And since I already pointed out the absurdity of comparing an Est to enemy units (because Ests can be stronger than enemy units a lot of the time, so they can only be compared to player units), the only option we have left is comparing Est to your own units.

but you did not point out this absurdity, not in the least. you cited the fact that nino doubles an enemy druid in FE7 as evidence of this "absurdity." yet you conveniently ignored that nino actually does no damage against this druid with any of her available weapon choices. indeed, she is quite underpowered compared to enemy units, and she also doesn't have redeeming qualities in terms of movement or staff rank. (when it comes to non-combat stats, i agree that it only makes sense to compare those against other player units.)

my FE5 saves aren't working like i want them to be, but sara's 17 atk, 8 AS with wind is plenty enough to ORKO common enemy types around when she joins (although it depends on the fluctuation in their mag stat, since FE5 has some pretty massive deviations). she gains half a level per physic use and her 5 movement isn't really even a liability considering that magic's 1-2 range makes up for that in this game (especially when indoors) and she has a 25% chance to get a second action on any given turn. her wrath skill lets her instantly blick any magic-using enemy on enemy phase, since those are really the only ones she has a shot at surviving against.

so there is a world of difference between nino and sara that you failed to capture. so much for your "philosophy."

Edited August 18, 2013 by dondon151

[Chiki]

but you did not point out this absurdity, not in the least. you cited the fact that nino doubles an enemy druid in FE7 as evidence of this "absurdity." yet you conveniently ignored that nino actually does no damage against this druid with any of her available weapon choices. indeed, she is quite underpowered compared to enemy units, and she also doesn't have redeeming qualities in terms of movement or staff rank.

my FE5 saves aren't working like i want them to be, but sara's 17 atk, 8 AS with wind is plenty enough to ORKO common enemy types around when she joins (although it depends on the fluctuation in their mag stat, since FE5 has some pretty massive deviations). she gains half a level per physic use and her 5 movement isn't really even a liability considering that magic's 1-2 range makes up for that in this game (especially when indoors) and she has a 25% chance to get a second action on any given turn. her wrath skill lets her instantly blick any magic-using enemy on enemy phase, since those are really the only ones she has a shot at surviving against.

so there is a world of difference between nino and sara that you failed to capture. so much for your "philosophy."

Excellent. You're just admitting what I want you to admit. I'm arguing that Sara is still an Est despite her being able to kill enemy units. This is exactly the conclusion I want to come to.

That's exactly why it's absurd: since Sara is considered an Est, and since Sara has good stats relative to enemy units, but bad stats relative to player units, the only conclusion we can come to is that Ests need to have bad stats relative to player units but it doesn't matter whether or not Ests have bad stats relative to enemies. Thank you for giving me the debate.

Anyway, you missed the purpose of the HHM example: that was just to show you the difference between ENM and HHM (even though NIno can double HHM enemies as well). Nino doesn't magically not become an Est when you play ENM. No one thinks that. She's still an Est despite her being able to do well against enemies in ENM. I wish I had some ENM stats.

Edited August 18, 2013 by Chiki

[dondon151]

That's exactly why it's absurd: since Sara is considered an Est, and since Sara has good stats relative to enemy units, but bad stats relative to player units, the only conclusion we can come to is that Ests need to have bad stats relative to player units but it doesn't matter whether or not Ests have bad stats relative to enemies. Thank you for giving me the debate.

this is clearly both a false dilemma and circular reasoning. if you are going to claim that you are right based on that... lol.

Edited August 18, 2013 by dondon151

[Chiki]

this is clearly both a false dilemma and circular reasoning. if you are going to claim that you are right based on that... lol.

You're losing track of the debate. What's even funnier is that you're losing track of a point you brought up!

It's not circular reasoning. I'm not claiming that Sara is an Est; if I were that would be circular reasoning. I took for granted that Sara is an Est. What I am claiming is that "Sara has bad stats" is synonymous with "Sara has bad stats relative to your player units."

Anyway, there are more examples that can prove Sara is an Est. Nino's stats don't drag you down at all in ENM, and she's still considered an Est.

Edited August 18, 2013 by Chiki

[dondon151]

I'm not claiming that Sara is an Est;

I'm arguing that Sara is still an Est

you can't not claim that sara is an "est" while arguing that sara is an "est." the crux of this debate is what makes an "est."

[Narga_Rocks]

Quick question, if 90% of your units have 40s in everything except 60 in hp, and along comes a unit that has 20 in everything except 30 in hp, that would be "bad stats relative to your player units". So the question is, can she be an est? If she meets the other requirements, like late joining and good enough growths to catch up and maybe even exceed your other units eventually, or whatever requirements you want, is she then automatically an Est? You seem to think that enemy stats are irrelevant. If this unit can destroy everything in the game because they are in the single digits in stats, is the unit an Est just because she has bad stats relative to your player units?

I think the point dondon is making is that Sara's performance versus enemies precludes the possibility of her being an Est. She is simply too good at base when she shows up for her to qualify as an Est.

Put another way, if Nino and Sara are both Ests, then the definition of Est is rather useless as it gives no information about performance against enemies. Why are stats relative to player units more relevant than performance? Isn't this another way of saying "I like flashy numbers"? I thought we got past this whole higher numbers in a void make a unit better thing. Performance is what counts.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Narga_Rocks

[Chiki]

you can't not claim that sara is an "est" while arguing that sara is an "est." the crux of this debate is what makes an "est."

I've been arguing and still am arguing, generally, (in this whole thread) that Sara is an Est. I'm arguing (right now) that Sara isn't an Est. There are two different senses of "I'm arguing with someone." You could be arguing with someone for years, and still are, about something, or you could be arguing with someone right now.

I think you're just trying to avoid the debate with your witty little retorts. It's quite sad how incompetent you are when it comes to concepts and debating in general. It's like arguing with Interceptor all over again.

Why don't you try answering my examples?

Quick question, if 90% of your units have 40s in everything except 60 in hp, and along comes a unit that has 20 in everything except 30 in hp, that would be "bad stats relative to your player units". So the question is, can she be an est? If she meets the other requirements, like late joining and good enough growths to catch up and maybe even exceed your other units eventually, or whatever requirements you want, is she then automatically an Est? You seem to think that enemy stats are irrelevant. If this unit can destroy everything in the game because they are in the single digits in stats, is the unit an Est just because she has bad stats relative to your player units?

I think the point dondon is making is that Sara's performance versus enemies precludes the possibility of her being an Est. She is simply too good at base when she shows up for her to qualify as an Est.

Put another way, if Nino and Sara are both Ests, then the definition of Est is rather useless as it gives no information about performance against enemies. Why are stats relative to player units more relevant than performance? Isn't this another way of saying "I like flashy numbers"? I thought we got past this whole higher numbers in a void make a unit better thing. Performance is what counts.

She does do kinda bad vs. enemies though. One hit and she dies pretty much.

The fact that you have to keep her away from enemies is proof of the fact that she's an Est.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Chiki

[dondon151]

I think you're just trying to avoid the debate with your witty little retorts. It's quite sad how incompetent you are when it comes to concepts and debating in general. It's like arguing with Interceptor all over again.

your fallback on ad hominem suggests that you are equally lacking in debating competence.

Why don't you try answering my examples?

what examples

I think the point dondon is making is that Sara's performance versus enemies precludes the possibility of her being an Est. She is simply too good at base when she shows up for her to qualify as an Est.

i am glad that narga completely understands my point, because now i have evidence that i am not being incoherent.

Edited August 19, 2013 by dondon151

[Chiki]

your fallback on ad hominem suggests that you are equally lacking in debating competence.

what examples

I realized this wasn't a debate since you went Interceptor mode.

That Nino can be used without being a detriment in ENM is one of them.

[Narga_Rocks]

She does do kinda bad vs. enemies though. One hit and she dies pretty much.

The fact that you have to keep her away from enemies is proof of the fact that she's an Est.

So what's in an Est, then? Does she ever break out of one hit = death, though? 20/20 stats are 26 hp and 6 def. Granted scrolls, but still.

Also, you have to keep Dorothy away from enemies (useless enemy phase due to no 1 range). I don't see how keeping a unit away from enemies is proof of being an Est. In your head, what's the list of requirements to be an Est, anyway?

1. low stats relative to other player characters

2. need to keep away from enemies or dies

3. can be near enemies later?

The trouble is, I think there's an important one you are missing

4. isn't good at the start

What is good? If a unit can use physic and can ORKO or do good damage to the majority of enemies, I don't think "can't be exposed on enemy phase" is sufficient to be called an Est. That's like, Sara's only flaw at the start. She dies easily. Nino has way more flaws. Imagine if you only fought generals that Nino doubles and does good damage to. Would we still call Nino an Est if she did massive damage once per player phase but still had to be kept unexposed on enemy phase? Maybe, but it seems less likely if she had that kind of power.

In any case, "can't be exposed on enemy phase" is only part of being an Est, not the only thing, and just because Sara meets one criterion, doesn't mean she meets them all. Missing some = not an Est.