Is it possible to make an Est that's a high tier character?

[dondon151]

That Nino can be used without being a detriment in ENM is one of them.

indeed, she is quite underpowered compared to enemy units, and she also doesn't have redeeming qualities in terms of movement or staff rank. (when it comes to non-combat stats, i agree that it only makes sense to compare those against other player units.)

next!

oh also nino can't ORKO mercenaries

Edited August 19, 2013 by dondon151

[Chiki]

So what's in an Est, then? Does she ever break out of one hit = death, though? 20/20 stats are 26 hp and 6 def. Granted scrolls, but still.

Also, you have to keep Dorothy away from enemies (useless enemy phase due to no 1 range). I don't see how keeping a unit away from enemies is proof of being an Est. In your head, what's the list of requirements to be an Est, anyway?

1. low stats relative to other player characters

2. need to keep away from enemies or dies

3. can be near enemies later?

The trouble is, I think there's an important one you are missing

4. isn't good at the start

What is good? If a unit can use physic and can ORKO or do good damage to the majority of enemies, I don't think "can't be exposed on enemy phase" is sufficient to be called an Est. That's like, Sara's only flaw at the start. She dies easily. Nino has way more flaws. Imagine if you only fought generals that Nino doubles and does good damage to. Would we still call Nino an Est if she did massive damage once per player phase but still had to be kept unexposed on enemy phase? Maybe, but it seems less likely if she had that kind of power.

In any case, "can't be exposed on enemy phase" is only part of being an Est, not the only thing, and just because Sara meets one criterion, doesn't mean she meets them all. Missing some = not an Est.

I don't recall missing 4--in fact I recall bringing it up when I said Sara needed to be trained a little bit to promote and be able to use Warp. Sara definitely starts out badly since she can't even go into combat reliably or use Warp and Rescue (did Warp and Rescue have the same rank)?

I think Sara fits all of those 4 things you just brought up.

Would you consider Nino in ENM an Est?

[Narga_Rocks]

I don't recall missing 4--in fact I recall bringing it up when I said Sara needed to be trained a little bit to promote and be able to use Warp. Sara definitely starts out badly since she can't even go into combat reliably or use Warp and Rescue (did Warp and Rescue have the same rank)?

I think Sara fits all of those 4 things you just brought up.

Would you consider Nino in ENM an Est?

Possibly not. What can she do? I only played HHM, was told by someone to download a file that allowed me to skip the rest. If she can kill stuff dead every player phase and be kept out of enemy phase without much problems, then possibly not. You have to really suck at the start to be an Est.

It is possible to suck on HHM and not suck on ENM.

Um, Sara sucks because she can't use warp at the start? That's it? That's your reasoning? What about being able to kill stuff easily and being able to physic at base and only needing a few small uses of physic and a couple kills to get there? Also rescue is B. Not hard to look up. Anyway, she may not be able to use Warp at base, but it's simply too easy to get her to promote. Your definition of babying is pretty loose, though, so I'm not going to say "needs babying" is a requirement. I'm sure you'd call letting her physic and kill stuff babying. How about, "needs you to bring units down to single digit hitpoints in order for killing?" Note that's one of the many requirements, not the only thing, there's still late-joining and dies to a sneeze to consider. But when you don't need to use iron weapons in order to weaken stuff for a unit to gain levels, it's not the kind of (extreme) babying that I imagine when I hear the term "Est". I think your definition of Est just matches your definition of babying. It's particularly loose.

[Chiki]

Possibly not. What can she do? I only played HHM, was told by someone to download a file that allowed me to skip the rest. If she can kill stuff dead every player phase and be kept out of enemy phase without much problems, then possibly not. You have to really suck at the start to be an Est.

It is possible to suck on HHM and not suck on ENM.

Um, Sara sucks because she can't use warp at the start? That's it? That's your reasoning? What about being able to kill stuff easily and being able to physic at base and only needing a few small uses of physic and a couple kills to get there? Also rescue is B. Not hard to look up. Anyway, she may not be able to use Warp at base, but it's simply too easy to get her to promote. Your definition of babying is pretty loose, though, so I'm not going to say "needs babying" is a requirement. I'm sure you'd call letting her physic and kill stuff babying. How about, "needs you to bring units down to single digit hitpoints in order for killing?" Note that's one of the many requirements, not the only thing, there's still late-joining and dies to a sneeze to consider. But when you don't need to use iron weapons in order to weaken stuff for a unit to gain levels, it's not the kind of (extreme) babying that I imagine when I hear the term "Est". I think your definition of Est just matches your definition of babying. It's particularly loose.

I used Nino in ENM, and as far as I could recall I could pretty much just have her kill stuff easily. But no one says "okay, Nino is an Est in HHM, but not in ENM." Since definitions are determined by the majority, I don't think the definition of an Est has anything to do with difficulty whatsoever.

But as you have pointed out, Sara needs to suck at the start. It's not relevant how quickly she reaches promotion. She doesn't reach it instantly.

I do think Sara sucks at the start. She can't go into combat and she can kill one enemy per turn. She can use Physic but so can a lot of other people. How is that good?

Yes, I consider babying as going out of your way to train a unit, something you wouldn't do normally. So if I train Jill in FE10 in 1-6-1, that's babying because I wouldn't do it if she didn't need it.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Chiki

[Narga_Rocks]

I used Nino in ENM, and as far as I could recall I could pretty much just have her kill stuff easily. But no one says "okay, Nino is an Est in HHM, but not in ENM." Since definitions are determined by the majority, I don't think the definition of an Est has anything to do with difficulty whatsoever.

But as you have pointed out, Sara needs to suck at the start. It's not relevant how quickly she reaches promotion. She doesn't reach it instantly.

I do think Sara sucks at the start. She can't go into combat and she can kill one enemy per turn. She can use Physic but so can a lot of other people. How is that good?

Yes, I consider babying as going out of your way to train a unit, something you wouldn't do normally. So if I train Jill in FE10 in 1-6-1, that's babying because I wouldn't do it if she didn't need it.

good

suck

Apparently it's a binary definition now.

[Phoenix Wright]

well, that's not true. nino cannot be touched even on ENM or she'll die. usually ORKO, maybe 2RKO depending on the enemy. but this is while everyone else is facing 4+RKO

she breaks as easily as a pencil on ENM, and can do only chip damage against non-knight enemies until at least lv. 10

she needs to be heavily babied, but it's worth it, to me, on ENM. it's not on HHM

Edited August 19, 2013 by Phoenix Wright

[Chiki]

well, that's not true. nino cannot be touched even on ENM or she'll die. usually ORKO, maybe 2RKO depending on the enemy. but this is while everyone else is facing 4+RKO

she breaks as easily as a pencil on ENM, and can do only chip damage against non-knight enemies until at least lv. 10

Yeah, just like Sara. That's my point.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Chiki

[dondon151]

I do think Sara sucks at the start. She can't go into combat and she can kill one enemy per turn. She can use Physic but so can a lot of other people. How is that good?

a lot of other people are busy using warp

also have you even played FE5?

[Narga_Rocks]

Yeah, just like Sara. That's my point.

and can do only chip damage against non-knight enemies until at least lv. 10

that's Sara since when?

[Chiki]

good

suck

Apparently it's a binary definition now.

It was a rhetorical question. Sara can't go into combat; she can only kill one unit per turn. She has 5 move. The only thing she's good for is Physic. That's definitely bad for me.

a lot of other people are busy using warp

also have you even played FE5?

If you're Warp skipping stuff, how likely is it for you to use Physic?

You've only finished it once as far as I recall--didn't you say your 0% was your first time beating it?--so more than you.

and can do only chip damage against non-knight enemies until at least lv. 10

that's Sara since when?

I don't have ENM stats, but I definitely recall Nino being able to KO a lot of enemy units without a problem, just like Sara. Enemies in ENM are incredibly slow and weak.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Chiki

[dondon151]

If you're Warp skipping stuff, how likely is it for you to use Physic?

if you're SSS ranking FE5, sara has ~12 turns in chapter 18 to promote

if you're not SSS ranking FE5, there's no point in using her

You've only finished it once as far as I recall--didn't you say your 0% was your first time beating it?--so more than you.

no need to be so nasty!

[Chiki]

if you're SSS ranking FE5, sara has ~12 turns in chapter 18 to promote

At the start. Taking time to promote her in the next chapter isn't at the start.

That's what makes Sara so good. The time it takes to train her is very very low.

I wasn't even being sarcastic. I was being honest.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Chiki

[dondon151]

At the start. Taking time to promote her in the next chapter isn't at the start.

you recruit her on the last turn of chapter 17, so her "start" is chapter 18.

if you're attempting an SSS rank, in chapter 18, sara can kill the freege armors from across the wall. and then she uses a staff a few times and promotes. in practice, her start is not bad at all.

[Phoenix Wright]

I don't have ENM stats, but I definitely recall Nino being able to KO a lot of enemy units without a problem, just like Sara. Enemies in ENM are incredibly slow and weak.

ch. 27 cogs of destiny? i really doubt that. even on ENM, you have to turtle up to train her, and make sure she doesn't get hit for a while before she can start holding her own. there are tons of enemies everywhere on that map; anywhere she goes alone she will most certainly die. she NEEDS to be babied heavily.

i haven't completed FE5, but even from this thread alone i realize that sara doesn't need that. someone said 3/4 physics uses and she can promote, and once she promotes, she's really good. 3/4 physics stave uses is nothing. and obviously this means sara has stave utility from the get-go, which nino certainly doesn't have. she'll pretty much never have real stave utility IIRC. heal/mend staves aren't that necessary by endgame.

sara is good at the start, nino isn't.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Phoenix Wright

[Chiki]

you recruit her on the last turn of chapter 17, so her "start" is chapter 18.

if you're attempting an SSS rank, in chapter 18, sara can kill the freege armors from across the wall. and then she uses a staff a few times and promotes. in practice, her start is not bad at all.

I guess I have a different idea of what "bad" is from you. What I consider bad is not bringing anything new to the table: being able to use Physic or being able to kill armors is something a lot of people can do, so I don't see why she gets points for it.

Anyway, I'm not sure why this has to be an SSS rank debate. It can range from efficiency to casual to anything else.

[Vennobennu]

Being a little redundant for a chapter or so is leagues ahead of jokers like Nino, Sheema, Sophia and Amelia, who are just about useless for a long time, can only be trained by sitting around specifically feeding them kills, and turn out to be only decent at combat after putting in all that effort.

I don't know how you can consider Sara to be even remotely similar to Sophia (aka Ms. ORKOd by everything).

[Chiki]

Being a little redundant for a chapter or so is leagues ahead of jokers like Nino, Sheema, Sophia and Amelia, who are just about useless for a long time, can only be trained by sitting around specifically feeding them kills, and turn out to be only decent at combat after putting in all that effort.

I don't know how you can consider Sara to be even remotely similar to Sophia (aka Ms. ORKOd by everything).

Here's how: Sara is useless for a short time, Sophia is useless for a very long time.

Therefore, Sara is a good Est, Sophia is a bad one.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Chiki

[dondon151]

I guess I have a different idea of what "bad" is from you. What I consider bad is not bringing anything new to the table: being able to use Physic or being able to kill armors is something a lot of people can do, so I don't see why she gets points for it.

again, outside of the context of SSS rank, there's no reason to use sara. you don't need a 4th warp user, and you're 1- or 2-turning chapter 18. in the context of SSS rank, you do need a 4th warp user, and you're ~12-turning chapter 18.

[Narga_Rocks]

again, outside of the context of SSS rank, there's no reason to use sara. you don't need a 4th warp user, and you're 1- or 2-turning chapter 18.

Or you are playing casual and don't need a 4th warp user (or really a 3rd, 2nd, maybe not even a 1st depending on how you do it) and don't need Sara anyway. Is she ever a reliable not-dying killing machine or does she just kill stuff if she's nice enough to dodge? I mean, scrolls are nice, really nice, but how much do they improve that crappy hp/def problem and how reliable does her dodge get? 20 spd/lck only gets you to 60 avo and she can't even use her 20 spd luck because of the way weight and tomes works in fe5, so... She's pretty much a warper. Physic for a bit to promote and then warp. Isn't an Est supposed to be worse than physics at the start and better than simple warping after training?

I guess I have a different idea of what "bad" is from you. What I consider bad is not bringing anything new to the table: being able to use Physic or being able to kill armors is something a lot of people can do, so I don't see why she gets points for it.

You have a pretty harsh idea of what "bad" is. And it's not so much getting points for that stuff, it's not losing points for being a waste of space. If you are capable of using physic and doing some of the things others can do, like killing mercs and armours and a few other things, you are not a waste of space. As Nino is a waste of space and Sara is not, I see that as an important divide between the two and a reason not to dump them in the same category.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Narga_Rocks

[Chiki]

Isn't an Est supposed to be worse than physics at the start and better than simple warping after training?

Seems a little arbitrary to make limits like that. Just "bad before training" and "good after training" should be enough. Warp and Rescue are always handy to have, and pretty much everyone and their mother can use Physic or kill armors.

It's not like Nino is ever amazing, even after training.

again, outside of the context of SSS rank, there's no reason to use sara. you don't need a 4th warp user, and you're 1- or 2-turning chapter 18. in the context of SSS rank, you do need a 4th warp user, and you're ~12-turning chapter 18.

You never really need to use Nino. I'm not sure what this has to do with Sara being an Est.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Chiki

[Constable Reggie]

I think the fundamental issue here is that none of us have a same definition of the very philosophical word "good". Before you guys continue on, we need to first accurately define the term "good" and how it relates to Sara and her questionable(?) est status. Now, do we define "good" as in Arby's slogan "it's good mood food" (which is traditionally defined as "shitty food that is only serviceable if you can't find a Wendy's"), or do we define it as compared to "gouda cheese"?

This is an extremely vital semantic disccusion necessary for the beneficial contributions of future posts.

[Narga_Rocks]

Seems a little arbitrary to make limits like that. Just "bad before training" and "good after training" should be enough. Warp and Rescue are always handy to have, and pretty much everyone and their mother can use Physic or kill armors.

It's not like Nino is ever amazing, even after training.

You never really need to use Nino. I'm not sure what this has to do with Sara being an Est.

"bad before training" and "good after training" should be enough. Agreed. The problem here lies in the disagreement of what qualifies as bad. Replicating other people sufficiently (Sara) versus not replicating other people (Nino) seems like an important difference to me, and one of those is definitely not "bad before training". Guess which one?

[Chiki]

"bad before training" and "good after training" should be enough. Agreed. The problem here lies in the disagreement of what qualifies as bad. Replicating other people sufficiently (Sara) versus not replicating other people (Nino) seems like an important difference to me, and one of those is definitely not "bad before training". Guess which one?

I think even dondon would call Sara worthless if she could only use Physic for the whole game chapters.

I think the start is bad considered in isolation--but the start is just so short it doesn't seem to matter. It's still bad though.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Chiki

[Narga_Rocks]

Not going to put words in his mouth, but I will say Rhys would go cry if he heard you talk that way about his only means of contribution.

[dondon151]

You never really need to use Nino. I'm not sure what this has to do with Sara being an Est.

but you need to use sara in an SSS rank run