Suggestions to balance FE

[Chiki]

Since I saw many threads which talked about nerfing a particular game mechanic, I wanted to think of rational ways in which FE could be balanced. Hopefully I've succeeded. First I'll list the things which I think need to be balanced:

Problems

These are the general mechanics of Fire Emblem which are in pretty much every game--FE13 has some pretty damn broken things, but they don't hold true for every game. I think the following are true for most games:

1. Mounts

2. Flight

3. Archers

4. Jeigans

5. Javelins / Hand Axes

Solutions

1. Dismounting would solve this problem to a very minor extent--it doesn't make much sense to bring your horse indoors anyway. Though most maps generally aren't indoors in most Fire Emblem games, if I recall correctly, so this wouldn't do much: mounts would still be overpowered as always in outdoor maps.

Another way to solve this problem would be to make mounts from dodging attacks whatsoever. I don't think it makes much sense for a horse to react so quickly (or even understand the situation at all) to someone stabbing them with a lance. Then someone could make Horseslayers more common in the game, which would make it difficult for mounts to do so well on outdoor maps, since they can never dodge Horseslayer attacks. They would still be pretty good, but their usefulness would be limited thanks to having no avoid whatsoever.

2. Flight is maybe the biggest problem in the game, but I think it has the same solution as 1: dismounting and no avoid. I can't imagine arrows missing a huge target very much, so the same solution would apply here.

3. I always never understood why archers couldn't attack from very far away--I mean, isn't that the point of archery? Why can't you attack from, say, 5 tiles away, but with much less accuracy?

I'd try to solve this by introducing Crossbows like FE10 back into the game, and doing a similar thing FE10 did by giving Marksmen the way to attack from 3 tiles away, but further: I'd say making a limit around 5 tiles away would be good, but with highly compromised accuracy. No accuracy compromised when the opponent is right next to you (with a Crossbow), -10 from a tile away, -20 from 2 tiles away, -30 from 3 tiles away, -40 from 4 tiles away, and so on.

4. This is easily solved, and I think there are two possible solutions. One could be to make Jeigans disappear from normal and the above modes entirely, leaving them only in easy mode. Another way could be to have the Jeigan retire from old age after a certain point in the game, like around chapter 5, and let the player know that he's going to leave soon so he or she doesn't rely on the Jeigan too much.

5. This is one of the most unbalanced things in the game--without them LTC playthroughs would have a hard time existing. But I never really understood how you could just throw your Wishblade over and over again at an opponent with no consequence whatsoever, and how Hand Axes just magically spin into the palm of your hand even when you're a level 1 Fighter. I think an easy solution to this is to make it so that there are no valuable weapons with 1-2 range, and also make it so that Javelins and Hand Axes have 1 use each. This is probably a very weird solution, but I can't really imagine a person carrying a bag of 25 Hand Axes or Javelins (the common number of use for Javelins and Hand Axes) and just throwing them over and over again at an opponent.

Feel free to post your own suggestions and problems if I missed any.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Chiki

[Anouleth]

1. Dismounting would solve this problem to a very minor extent--it doesn't make much sense to bring your horse indoors anyway. Though most maps generally aren't indoors in most Fire Emblem games, if I recall correctly, so this wouldn't do much: mounts would still be overpowered as always in outdoor maps.

Another way to solve this problem would be to make mounts from dodging attacks whatsoever. I don't think it makes much sense for a horse to react so quickly (or even understand the situation at all) to someone stabbing them with a lance. Then someone could make Horseslayers more common in the game, which would make it difficult for mounts to do so well on outdoor maps, since they can never dodge Horseslayer attacks. They would still be pretty good, but their usefulness would be limited thanks to having no avoid whatsoever.

You shouldn't really be relying on avoid to keep yourself safe from horseslayers anyway. If that Horseslayer is going to deal 30 damage to your 40HP Paladin, then even if it's only a 40% chance to hit it's too high in my opinion... I think it depends as well on how high avoid in general is.

You could just give mounted units worse stats to begin with. Nobody thinks that Noah and Treck are overpowered.

2. Flight is maybe the biggest problem in the game, but I think it has the same solution as 1: dismounting and no avoid. I can't imagine arrows missing a huge target very much, so the same solution would apply here.

Or, you could just give flying units worse stats to begin with. Obviously Thany is still a strong unit, but she's far from being overpowered, because her combat is so objectively terrible.

3. I always never understood why archers couldn't attack from very far away--I mean, isn't that the point of archery? Why can't you attack from, say, 5 tiles away, but with much less accuracy?

No... it's hard enough to protect Thany/Natasha/Micaiah/whoever from being attacked without enemy archers having five range...

I'd try to solve this by introducing Crossbows like FE10 back into the game, and doing a similar thing FE10 did by giving Marksmen the way to attack from 3 tiles away, but further: I'd say making a limit around 5 tiles away would be good, but with highly compromised accuracy. No accuracy compromised when the opponent is right next to you (with a Crossbow), -10 from a tile away, -20 from 2 tiles away, -30 from 3 tiles away, -40 from 4 tiles away, and so on.

I don't like the idea of 5-range enemies or 5-range allies, especially if they come with big conditions like that. I don't see why Archers have to have range penalties, are we trying to make archers balanced with themselves or something?

4. This is easily solved, and I think there are two possible solutions. One could be to make Jeigans disappear from normal and the above modes entirely, leaving them only in easy mode.

I like this, but some people might not like the idea of certain characters only being available in certain difficulties, particularly if it's the easiest one. I think a better solution is just to have Jeigans join in midgame in higher difficulties rather than from the start of the game, so you still have the option to use them, they're just not around at the point where they're overpowering.

5. This is one of the most unbalanced things in the game--without them LTC playthroughs would have a hard time existing. But I never really understood how you could just throw your Wishblade over and over again at an opponent with no consequence whatsoever, and how Hand Axes just magically spin into the palm of your hand even when you're a level 1 Fighter. I think an easy solution to this is to make it so that there are no valuable weapons with 1-2 range, and also make it so that Javelins and Hand Axes have 1 use each. This is probably a very weird solution, but I can't really imagine a person carrying a bag of 25 Hand Axes or Javelins (the common number of use for Javelins and Hand Axes) and just throwing them over and over again at an opponent.

I think that's an easy suspension of disbelief to make. It's no more ridiculous than swords that instantly disintegrate into dust after 30 uses exactly every time, and of course are just as accurate and sharp at 29 uses as they are brand new from the forge. Or being able to combine two swords with 10 uses left to get a sword with 20 uses left. Or 5 knives taking the same room in your inventory as 5 giant battleaxes.

[Chiki]

No... it's hard enough to protect Thany/Natasha/Micaiah/whoever from being attacked without enemy archers having five range...

One could make pegasus knights have avoid against archers but also make archers have low accuracy against them (since they have 5 range). That would make it a risk but still make them usable.

[X-Naut]

1. I'm not too keen on mounts being unable to dodge at all, and dodging could be justified by having the rider notice and give evasive orders to the mount. Lower Avoid bonuses on terrain and getting less Avoid from Speed, sure, but not dodging entirely. Or make it so that dodged attacks hurt the horse, which has its own health, and is forced to retreat (and consequently dismount the rider) if too much damage is taken.

A better way would be to rebalance stats. Don't give them higher base stats than foot units, give them a higher doubling requirement while mounted (or a lower Speed stat), and make the higher terrain penalties more noticeable. Dismounting lets them fix their doubling somewhat, but they're still left with worse offense than the foot units. Speaking of dismounting, don't allow it freely: you're either mounted for the map or you aren't, and that's it. Dismounting could also lower weapon ranks slightly on account of not being used to fighting on foot.

2. No dodging makes even less sense on a flying mount than on a horse because being in the air makes them more maneuverable. But yes, everything that applies to mounted units also applies to fliers, just add "better Archers" to the list. You could also give them a small movement penalty over mountainous terrain to keep them from crossing the map effectively, or have the geography affect them (i.e. forests get in their way, so no countering attackers from forest terrain).

3. Giving Archers too much range makes it incredibly difficult to keep safe zones in your formation... anything above 3-range should be restricted to having a ballista or a height advantage. However I will give you that archers should be carrying more than 2-range more often, and it should be threatening. Bringing back the Longbow tree from RD and making them more abundant (for both player and enemy) should suffice.

The whole "no 1-range" deal can be solved by simply making them much more threatening. Give Archers average Strength/Speed at worst, the highest Skill, and bring back Pursuit as a class skill, with the Archer line being one to have it. (I'm not sure about the mounted archers having this.) That makes being helpless on your turn a godsend, and an acceptable drawback to your own. Or if you must have Archers who aren't helpless on enemy phase, let them counter (and only counter) at 1-range, but with halved Strength/Skill and no doubling. It's like the Priest's staff whack except it may actually do "damage."

4. I dislike the former idea because harder difficulties often make them a necessity early on, but the latter seems okay. And it doesn't have to be from old age: you could just as easily make the Jeigan closer to Marcus or Seth and have them leave to fight elsewhere, them come back later at a point where they don't overpower everything. Just be sure to give them a way to not murder everything (like a Training weapon) so you can feed kills to other units and you aren't left completely hanging.

5. Or just take away double attacking at 2 range. Making them one use each makes them worthless unless you can carry multiples in your inventory, like five or ten. Simply making them slightly weaker than their melee counterparts, as well as no doubling, should keep them from mowing down hordes without making them entirely useless.

Originally I was going to have everything included with the quotes but the post was too long for my liking, besides everything you wrote is in the previous two posts.

Edited August 17, 2013 by X-Naut

[Elieson]

1~2 range object wpns with flat X damage (5, 7, whatever)

[Chiki]

4. I dislike the former idea because harder difficulties often make them a necessity early on

You can make the game so that they aren't necessary. And there are strategies to beat every FE difficulty without Jeigans (someone said Lunatic was unbeatable without Frederick and I came up with a strategy that allowed you to just let Frederick die on the first turn).

[Anacybele]

If you'd like archers to be able to attack from farther away, I created something that does that. In fact, anyone that can use a ranged weapon can attack from farther away using this. ;)

As for Jagens, I think they're fine the way they are. You can't solo any games with them, and they still have their drawbacks, like eating up exp that should go to other units that need it more and falling behind later in the game, or in Frederick's case, leveling up slowly, making it take more time for him to reach his full potential.

Dismounting in general isn't a bad idea for mounts though. I kind of use this in my fic, actually, for balancing purposes (but not really often).

[dondon151]

As for Jagens, I think they're fine the way they are. You can't solo any games with them

you haven't played enough games then

anyway i have already spoken my piece on most of these problems and i'm on an ipad right now, so i can't say anything in length.

[Florete]

1. Dismounting would solve this problem to a very minor extent--it doesn't make much sense to bring your horse indoors anyway. Though most maps generally aren't indoors in most Fire Emblem games, if I recall correctly, so this wouldn't do much: mounts would still be overpowered as always in outdoor maps.

Another way to solve this problem would be to make mounts from dodging attacks whatsoever. I don't think it makes much sense for a horse to react so quickly (or even understand the situation at all) to someone stabbing them with a lance. Then someone could make Horseslayers more common in the game, which would make it difficult for mounts to do so well on outdoor maps, since they can never dodge Horseslayer attacks. They would still be pretty good, but their usefulness would be limited thanks to having no avoid whatsoever.

While I don't think this is a bad idea necessarily, I think what Anouleth said is better: just nerf their stats. Make them take more effort to have the same combat ability as foot units.

2. Flight is maybe the biggest problem in the game, but I think it has the same solution as 1: dismounting and no avoid. I can't imagine arrows missing a huge target very much, so the same solution would apply here.

Uh, you realize they are flying, right? Take a gun, go outside, and shoot at a bird. Now imagine it's bigger, but also actively trying to avoid you and your weapon is slower and less accurate.

Once again, just re-balance stats.

3. I always never understood why archers couldn't attack from very far away--I mean, isn't that the point of archery? Why can't you attack from, say, 5 tiles away, but with much less accuracy?

I'd try to solve this by introducing Crossbows like FE10 back into the game, and doing a similar thing FE10 did by giving Marksmen the way to attack from 3 tiles away, but further: I'd say making a limit around 5 tiles away would be good, but with highly compromised accuracy. No accuracy compromised when the opponent is right next to you (with a Crossbow), -10 from a tile away, -20 from 2 tiles away, -30 from 3 tiles away, -40 from 4 tiles away, and so on.

2-5 indefinitely is too much for reasons stated by others, but I could see some specific weapons that give Archers such range so that they have the potential to shoot that far.

4. This is easily solved, and I think there are two possible solutions. One could be to make Jeigans disappear from normal and the above modes entirely, leaving them only in easy mode. Another way could be to have the Jeigan retire from old age after a certain point in the game, like around chapter 5, and let the player know that he's going to leave soon so he or she doesn't rely on the Jeigan too much.

This usually wouldn't make any sense for the story since the Jagen is basically always an important character to the lord. The retirement idea isn't bad, but I think it's better just to make them like FE11 Jagen; clutch hitter early on, but falls off very hard and very fast. Give them bases maybe 3-4 points higher than the lord on average but bad growths and a bad experience rate.

5. This is one of the most unbalanced things in the game--without them LTC playthroughs would have a hard time existing. But I never really understood how you could just throw your Wishblade over and over again at an opponent with no consequence whatsoever, and how Hand Axes just magically spin into the palm of your hand even when you're a level 1 Fighter. I think an easy solution to this is to make it so that there are no valuable weapons with 1-2 range, and also make it so that Javelins and Hand Axes have 1 use each. This is probably a very weird solution, but I can't really imagine a person carrying a bag of 25 Hand Axes or Javelins (the common number of use for Javelins and Hand Axes) and just throwing them over and over again at an opponent.

That would be extremely frustrating and make them basically useless. The best solution is a simple one: make them unable to double. ORKOing can only be done with a crit or against a really weak enemy, so it largely only becomes good for chip or finishing off a weakened enemy. Make sure magic swords exist, as well.

I like this, but some people might not like the idea of certain characters only being available in certain difficulties, particularly if it's the easiest one. I think a better solution is just to have Jeigans join in midgame in higher difficulties rather than from the start of the game, so you still have the option to use them, they're just not around at the point where they're overpowering.

That makes the character no longer a Jagen.

[NinjaMonkey]

5. This is one of the most unbalanced things in the game--without them LTC playthroughs would have a hard time existing. But I never really understood how you could just throw your Wishblade over and over again at an opponent with no consequence whatsoever, and how Hand Axes just magically spin into the palm of your hand even when you're a level 1 Fighter. I think an easy solution to this is to make it so that there are no valuable weapons with 1-2 range, and also make it so that Javelins and Hand Axes have 1 use each. This is probably a very weird solution, but I can't really imagine a person carrying a bag of 25 Hand Axes or Javelins (the common number of use for Javelins and Hand Axes) and just throwing them over and over again at an opponent.

I like this for the following reason: Say we have a boss who is guarding a seize location and is armed with a Hand Axe and an Iron Axe. Now all I have to do to beat him is place a high Defence unit two spaces away from him to goad him into using his Hand Axe, have it break, and then WTFpawn him with my mages and archers at two range on the next turn in complete safety.

Awesome, isn't it?

Edited August 17, 2013 by NinjaMonkey

[CT075]

I like this for the following reason: Say we have a boss who is guarding a seize location and is armed with a Hand Axe and an Iron Axe. Now all I have to do to beat him is place a high Defence unit two spaces away from him to goad him into using his Hand Axe, have it break, and then WTFpawn him with my mages and archers at two range on the next turn in complete safety.

Awesome, isn't it?

it's like you're asking us to balance around abuse

---

wrt mounts i had an idea where mounts get like 10 move but it's split over two turns - they get 10 move TOTAL over the two turns

in practice t hough i don't think it'd do very much

Edited August 17, 2013 by CT075

[Chiki]

I'd also make it so that defense only goes up by promotion bonuses. How on earth do you grow more defense as you level? It's not like you're changing clothes in between levels or anything.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Chiki

[NinjaMonkey]

it's like you're asking us to balance around abuse

No, I'm just pointing out the glaringly obvious flaw in Chiki's suggestion (that he's apparently oblivious to).

I'd also make it so that defense only goes up by promotion bonuses. How on earth do you grow more defense as you level? It's not like you're changing clothes in between levels or anything.

So you want to go round the whole game with all your units taking significant damage every time they get hit?

Weirdo.

Edited August 17, 2013 by NinjaMonkey

[Vashiane]

I'd also make it so that defense only goes up by promotion bonuses. How on earth do you grow more defense as you level? It's not like you're changing clothes in between levels or anything.

What about the other stats?

[Chiki]

I like this for the following reason: Say we have a boss who is guarding a seize location and is armed with a Hand Axe and an Iron Axe. Now all I have to do to beat him is place a high Defence unit two spaces away from him to goad him into using his Hand Axe, have it break, and then WTFpawn him with my mages and archers at two range on the next turn in complete safety.

Awesome, isn't it?

I thought this was a joke post, because it's pretty easy to solve.

Here's an easy solution: They're on a seize tile where they can get more Hand Axes (a limitless supply).

What about the other stats?

I think stats shouldn't go up very often at all. It doesn't make much sense to increase significantly in strength, speed or skill, and it doesn't make sense to increase at all in defense. Promotion bonuses, though, I have no problem with.

This is kinda like how most JRPGs are (I read this somewhere else, so I might be wrong, but my experience with games agrees with this). Such as in FFVI and FFVIII, where stats don't even go up at all without Espers or Junctions respectively.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Chiki

[Vashiane]

I thought this was a joke post, because it's pretty easy to solve.

Here's an easy solution: They're on a seize tile where they can get more Hand Axes (a limitless supply).

I think stats shouldn't go up very often at all. It doesn't make much sense to increase significantly in strength, speed or skill, and it doesn't make sense to increase at all in defense. Promotion bonuses, though, I have no problem with.

This is kinda like how most JRPGs are (I read this somewhere else, so I might be wrong, but my experience with games agrees with this). Such as in FFVI and FFVIII, where stats don't even go up at all without Espers or Junctions respectively.

Huh. That's an interesting indeed, although then I wonder how the experience system would work... the same just without the level up system?

[Chiki]

Now that I think about it I can see skill going up often since you gain more skill as you battle with others.

The only thing that would go up with the exp and level up system would be HP and skill, and rarely strength and speed--I'd make these preprogrammed, not reliant on growths.

Maybe you could have a system like in FFVI where having a certain item (like a Dragonstone) increases your stats every time you level.

[CT075]

No, I'm just pointing out the glaringly obvious flaw in Chiki's suggestion (that he's apparently oblivious to).

it's impossible to exploit without abuse

so i ask you again

are you asking us to figure out a way to balance around abuse?

(alternately i give you the simplest solution - fe4-style, all enemies have infinite weaponry)

Edited August 18, 2013 by CT075

[Baldrick]

Strength makes sense to go up, your muscles develop over time. Speed too, your reflexes improve.

Sounds to me like you want a FF2 approach to growths.

[Chiki]

Strength makes sense to go up, your muscles develop over time. Speed too, your reflexes improve.

Sounds to me like you want a FF2 approach to growths.

Yeah, but not like +1 every two level ups. It'd be a lot more gradual than that, I think.

[1% critted]

-Trying to make sense in a fantasy series where there are dragons, people that turn into dragons, magic,etc.

[Baldrick]

Just because a series is set in a different world doesn't mean it can't be internally consistent.

[Anacybele]

Yeah, and it doesn't mean you aren't allowed to tweak things a bit. It's all fictional, lol. My assault towers didn't actually exist in real life, so yeah (otherwise, they wouldn't be completely my idea).

[Phoenix Wright]

i don't really find it all that worth it to nerf mounted units that hard. i think making them a rare occurrence will fix things. maybe 2 of each type of mounted unit (wyvern, horse, pegasus). this would make it so that mounts aren't gamebreaking, i think. one, maybe two, would be available from the beginning. this also means that for the reclassing system, class caps will come back until endgame. by endgame, the player can do whatever.

no more stat inflation. awakening went overboard. unless there's 3 tiers of classes (not trainee-styled, but radiant dawn-styled), i don't think player stats should go above 30. lower growths overall make this possible. which also means no aptitude in future FE.

up the bases of archers (good buffs) and mages slightly. this just came to my head right now, but perhaps making it so that archers are the only units that can double ranged might work. maybe. upped mage bases would make them more durable, thus serving as an incentive to attack 1-range with them. also, perhaps use awakening as inspiration and have several types of mages (high STR/SPD, low DEF/RES; high DEF/RES low SPD mid STR; et cetera).

the more people talk about it, the more i start to agree that the lack of avoid in the DS games was pretty sweet. bring this type of gameplay back.

balance classes better next time, IS.

i can't say whether map design is getting worse or better, as i've really no useful opinion on the matter, but i can say improve as much as possible.

maybe make the lords a little more powerful, but not too powerful (so not like Ike and a few other lords). i was pretty disappointed with lyn, roy, and chrom in particular. this isn't necessarily a balance thing, admittedly, just a matter of preference.

Edited August 18, 2013 by Phoenix Wright

[dondon151]

I'd also make it so that defense only goes up by promotion bonuses. How on earth do you grow more defense as you level? It's not like you're changing clothes in between levels or anything.

one could get better at blocking an attack or making it do less damage

but i do think that this is a fine idea. i would like to just see lower defense caps and bases with lower growths. a fixed mode wouldn't be bad, either.

So you want to go round the whole game with all your units taking significant damage every time they get hit?

Weirdo.

this is actually a fantastic way to increase game difficulty while compromising a minimal amount of enjoyability. players would still be happy to do tons of damage and they just need to be more careful because they also take tons of damage.

wrt 2-5 range bows: TRS has a 2-4 range bow that some enemies use. it's fairly weak, inaccurate, and also really heavy. it's not that big of a deal every now and then, but there's one map where a bunch of enemies can gang up on your units with extended range bows and ballistae, and that map also happens to be one of the most aggravating and difficult maps in the game.