New tier list method

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

You need 2 chapter to get Fred x Sumia C in most circumstances

Support Cap is 27, its realistic if they get 4 Combat, which is 24

To get B, and A, S you need 2 more for each

So, thats 2 x 4 = 8

As for getting Fred x Sumia A in Cordy jointime..... every playlog does that

[Da Bear]

I said "I mean no offense when I say this." Is that not extremely clear?

What would be the best way to use Cordelia? Train her as a peg knight then change to Dark Mage when I get to chapter 13?

Most people will say that and then go on to be insulting anyway. I will say that this is the internetso .Iisi terpretation is bound to happen...

I would say go DM either ASAP and go Ricken or 13 and go Henry. Neither will givw you speed but Henry's defense > Ricken's skill. Going at 13 would mean you might have to wait a map or 2 for Nosferatu (or arms scroll) and build the support later in exchange for getting D a d possibly Move from pair up.

[Vashiane]

I said "I mean no offense when I say this." Is that not extremely clear?

What would be the best way to use Cordelia? Train her as a peg knight then change to Dark Mage when I get to chapter 13?

Unless you want Galeforce as soon as possible, that's the best way to go about it, yes.

Most people will say that and then go on to be insulting anyway. I will say that this is the internetso .Iisi terpretation is bound to happen...

I would say go DM either ASAP and go Ricken or 13 and go Henry. Neither will givw you speed but Henry's defense > Ricken's skill. Going at 13 would mean you might have to wait a map or 2 for Nosferatu (or arms scroll) and build the support later in exchange for getting D a d possibly Move from pair up.

The only complaint I'd have about using Henry instead of Ricken, despite the obvious loss of 6 maingame chapters to build supports on, is the sorcerer overlap.

[Da Bear]

The only complaint I'd have about using Henry instead of Ricken, despite the obvious loss of 6 maingame chapters to build supports on, is the sorcerer overlap.

Oh yeah... forgot about that.

I guess Ricken is the way to go then.

[Chiki]

You need 2 chapter to get Fred x Sumia C in most circumstances

Support Cap is 27, its realistic if they get 4 Combat, which is 24

To get B, and A, S you need 2 more for each

So, thats 2 x 4 = 8

As for getting Fred x Sumia A in Cordy jointime..... every playlog does that

Wrong calculations man.

C = 36

B = 36

A = 45

S = 45

27 x 2 = 54 = C

54 + 27 = 81 = B after 3 chapters.

You need 117 for A.

81 + 27 = 108

108 + 27 = 135 = A after 5 chapters.

117 + 45 = 162 for S.

135 + 27 = 162 = S after 6 chapters.

Your mistake was that B and S required 2 chapters. They don't.

What was that about doing my research?

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Support Ranks does not work like that, otherwise my Sumia vs the World playthrough would be even easier

C = 27 + 9 = 2 chapter

B = 27 + 9 = 2 chapter

A = 27 + 18 = 2 chapter

S = 27 + 18 = 2 chapter

8

Edited September 15, 2013 by JSND

[Florete]

I love how Celes is just completely ignoring all points harmful to his case, not answering questions about how this tier list actually works, and continuing to try arguments that have already been proven impossible.

So this is why people hate tier lists.

[Chiki]

What points are harmful to my case?

I'm gonna try out Sumia supporting Frederick now. Not like it matters much though.

[Florete]

Let's see: everything.

But for real, here are the main two:

1. The fact that Cordelia will inevitably and quickly pass Sumia up in ability.

2. The fact that Cordelia is much more versatile in class choice and supports. (Sumia basically needs one specific partner while Cordelia can use him and multiple others)

And that covers a lot of ground. However, you only seem to care about how Cordelia performs as a Dark Mage. Your insistence on ignoring questions about the purposes of this tier list isn't helping anything.

[Camilla]

I just did a Frederick and Sumia pair-up run from chapters 3-7 including the two paralogues.

By the end of chapter 7 they have an A.5 and will be S by the end of the paralogue right after 7.

Sumia is also ready to be promoted by 7 and her stats are pretty good.

[Nobody]

1. The fact that Cordelia will inevitably and quickly pass Sumia up in ability.

Let's just make it clear that this one is not a fact. Many people here disagree with that one (including me)

Edited September 15, 2013 by Nobody

[Florete]

Let's just say that this one is not a fact. Many people here disagree with that one (including me)

One only needs to compare their bases and growths to see it. Given what this tier list is supposedly aiming for, that's what's gonna happen.

[Snowy_One]

Honestly, it seems that, for now, Cordelia > Sumia. We can always revisit it later once the list is a bit more solid and argue the point better, but this seems to be just aggrivating people now. Best to not rip the list apart so early. Can we just agree this is a Mia/Zihark type situation where both have positives and negatives and it's difficult to decide which is actually better without far too much detailed review?

[Nobody]

One only needs to compare their bases and growths to see it. Given what this tier list is supposedly aiming for, that's what's gonna happen.

There are 7 chapters between Sumia joining and Cordelia joining. Even without favoritism, that's a lot of time. Yes, Cordelia surpass Sumia after some time. But how long does that take? A lot of time, IMO

Honestly, it seems that, for now, Cordelia > Sumia. We can always revisit it later once the list is a bit more solid and argue the point better, but this seems to be just aggrivating people now. Best to not rip the list apart so early. Can we just agree this is a Mia/Zihark type situation where both have positives and negatives and it's difficult to decide which is actually better without far too much detailed review?

No, because Mia is clearly better than Zihark

Edited September 15, 2013 by Nobody

[Chiki]

I've already told you I can't give lengthy replies because I'm on my phone. The clarification on the tier list will come later.

1. Yeah, but when? When does Cordelia pass Sumia in ability? Late game? There's not much time for the difference to even matter.

2. This isn't an issue since this tier list assumes perfect play.

Let's admit that Cordelia has a late game advantage. But 7 chapters of availability is worth more than 4 points of strength.

The tier list assuming optimal resource distribution isn't even my idea. I first heard Mekkah arguing that giving Arthur all your resources is the best thing to do so he shouldn't get penalized for it. I liked the idea so I use them in my tier lists.

We kinda have to assume perfect play. We give Miriel a Second Seal and Nosferatu because it's the smartest thing to do. Denying her those resources would be a stupid waste of potential.

I want this tier list to be for newbies, so for each unit I intend to explain why that unit is positioned there. Obviously newbies will be very surprised to see Miriel as the third best unit in the game and it needs to be explained.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

I love how in a min max topic Cordelia and everyone else will instantly lose to Sumia but n Tier List topic.... things get good

[Florete]

2. This isn't an issue since this tier list assumes perfect play.

Then I'll take my leave. Clearly this tier list is not what it claims to be.

[Vashiane]

Wait. I don't mean to make this any worse, but exactly what do you mean that this tier list assumes "perfect" play?

[Snowy_One]

I thought 'Perfect play' meant things like 'the player doesn't accidentally leave Donnel in range with 1 HP while training him' or things like that. Not 'the player always makes the right/optimal choice'. We can't assume the player will always make the perfect choice for a situation. Sometimes it may be obvious, like pairing people up, but other times it won't be. If a character requires things to go a specific way, it needs to be noted and considered.

[Chiki]

Perfect play means that units get the best resources possible.

Miriel gets Nosferatus and the Second Seal.

Tharja gets Nosferatus.

Henry gets Nosferatus.

Cordelia gets Stahl.

Sumia gets Frederick.

Avatar gets a Second Seal to change into a Dark Mage.

And so on.

[Vashiane]

Perfect play means that units get the best resources possible.

Miriel gets Nosferatus and the Second Seal.

Tharja gets Nosferatus.

Henry gets Nosferatus.

Cordelia gets Stahl.

Sumia gets Frederick.

Avatar gets a Second Seal to change into a Dark Mage.

And so on.

Ah... I see.

Hmm. So if we assume perfect play then, where should Ricken go/which child should he father, if at all?

[Chiki]

If we didn't assume perfect play or optimal resource distribution, I'd have to make a tier list like this for every single case:

Top Tier

Sorcerer Nosferatu Miriel

Mid Tier

Sorcerer Miriel

Sage Rescue Miriel

Low Tier

Sage Miriel

For every character. I think we both agree that would be horrible.

I'm not sure who Ricken would go with. What do you think?

Edited September 15, 2013 by Celes

[Vashiane]

If we didn't assume perfect play or optimal resource distribution, I'd have to make a tier list like this for every single case:

Top Tier

Sorcerer Nosferatu Miriel

Mid Tier

Sorcerer Miriel

Sage Rescue Miriel

Low Tier

Sage Miriel

For every character. I think we both agree that would be horrible.

I'm not sure who Ricken would go with. What do you think?

Well, from what I've learned from the Pairing Thread, Ricken is usually placed like this: Owain > Inigo > Laurent, so Lissa may be considered the "perfect play" option.

As for tier... hmm. Middle of the middle tier, thanks to Cavalier?

Edited September 15, 2013 by Vashiane

[Chiki]

I can see Ricken being where you said, but likely for different reasons. There's no post game content in this tier list so children don't matter too much.

I'd probably use Dark Knight Ricken with Miriel or Tharja or something.

[euklyd]

If we didn't assume perfect play or optimal resource distribution, I'd have to make a tier list like this for every single case:

Top Tier

Sorcerer Nosferatu Miriel

Mid Tier

Sorcerer Miriel

Sage Rescue Miriel

Low Tier

Sage Miriel

For every character. I think we both agree that would be horrible.

I'm not sure who Ricken would go with. What do you think?

Some of the tier lists I've seen rank Galeforce Sumia and non-Galeforce Sumia separately, so why is it wrong to rank Nosferatu separately?

Well, from what I've learned from the Pairing Thread, Ricken is usually placed like this: Owain > Inigo > Laurent, so Lissa may be considered the "perfect play" option.

As for tier... hmm. Middle of the middle tier, thanks to Cavalier?

The Pairing Thread is all about grinding the hell out of units, so I would be cautious about bringing its lessons into a tier list. And kids are very hard to rank, since Ricken!Inigo is very different from Frederick!Inigo or something, not to mention probably won't be getting used.

Actually, are any of the kids getting used?