JSND Alter Dragon Boner Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 (edited) If Sumia can take Lord Chrom and do okay, I don't see how she should take Fred >_> Edited September 14, 2013 by JSND Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZemZem Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 ZM, because she legit joins at a point when the enemies aren't as threatening. Have you played LM? The enemies become weaker in C6 for some weird design reason. Paralogue 3 has less threatening enemies than like Ch2. Anyway, back to Hard Mode. I've played LM, yes, but not recently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 Frederick isn't the only viable partner for Sumia. She also works well with Chrom or Henry after promoting to dark flier. Also, she also works well alone. Yes, without any pair up partner at all. Yes, I tried it, I did a no pair up playthrough and Sumia was better than Cordelia.Chrom x Sumia is okay, but she's not winning any comparisons with Cordelia using that. Henry comes so late that it's basically the same scenario. For the context of this tier list, no one should be alone, but PEMN anyway, Cordelia's raw stats are clearly better than Sumia's. Like, that's just fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKL Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 No, she didnt kill or tripped over my dog. I'm just annoyed because she's so overrated. :P She isn't even good in LTC. Why would she be good in notLTC? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZemZem Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 No, she didnt kill or tripped over my dog. I'm just annoyed because she's so overrated. :P She isn't even good in LTC. Why would she be good in notLTC? I can't believe you just said that. I can't even take you seriously anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 (edited) Chrom x Sumia is okay, but she's not winning any comparisons with Cordelia using that. Henry comes so late that it's basically the same scenario. For the context of this tier list, no one should be alone, but PEMN anyway, Cordelia's raw stats are clearly better than Sumia's. Like, that's just fact. According to Celes, this list uses their best configuration, hence Miriel being so high on the list. Sumia's best configuration >> Cordelia's. That's why she's higher on the tier list. No, she didnt kill or tripped over my dog. I'm just annoyed because she's so overrated. :P She isn't even good in LTC. Why would she be good in notLTC? Because with Fred pair up and tonics, she's able to kill most things without worrying too much about dying. It's quite simple to understand. BTW, isn't she the second most used unit on Celes' LTC of this game? Edited September 14, 2013 by Nobody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKL Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 (edited) I can't believe you just said that. I can't even take you seriously anymore. It's a legit point. She really doesn't do anything special in LTC. Her TC contributions are replicated by everyone else except for Chapter 5, in which Fred and Avatar just do everything anyway and all she does is ferry him there. In not LTC, there's really no demand for a flier. It makes the game needlessly harder by making you check archers and stuff. Cordelia has nice reclass options in the form of dark mage and merc. She starts close to reclassing and theres a SS next chapter. Also, .45 and .30 are pretty bad. If we assume averages shes ok. But characters are NEVER on their average. Cordelia has more chance to deviate to the good side of her growths due to being higher than 50. Edited September 14, 2013 by PKL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 According to Celes, this list uses their best configuration, hence Miriel being so high on the list. Sumia's best configuration >> Cordelia's. That's why she's higher on the tier list.Then why does this tier list even exist when it's the same as the ones previous? I don't even agree that Sumia's best configuration > Cordelia's because of Cordelia's totally obvious statistical advantages, but that's still bullshit. I also think Miriel's position is ridiculous, but I figured that could be ironed out later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 (edited) .45 and .30 are pretty bad. If we assume averages shes ok. But characters are NEVER on their average. Cordelia has more chance to deviate to the good side of her growths due to being higher than 50. Now you're ignoring averages, please. The same way Cordelia can go above their average, she can also go bellow. Same to Sumia. Averages is everything that matters, because if they don't I can just claim Sumia is better than Cordelia without a doubt, since I've never had a screwed Sumia, but had Cordelias that were actually doubled on the mid game lol. Then why does this tier list even exist when it's the same as the ones previous? Assuming better configurations =/= caring about turn counts, anyone can figure that out. With a fred pair up, she'll get many kills before cordelia arrives, and have a A support, which will give her the edge over Cordelia. -------------------------- I just realized we're arguing in circles. Bye. Edited September 14, 2013 by Nobody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKL Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 Lol people still using averages. I'm out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 Assuming better configurations =/= caring about turn counts, anyone can figure that out.It is basically the same thing as standard efficiency tier lists. Turn counts was far from the only thing people didn't like. Relying on specific setups and strategies was arguably an even bigger factor. So basically, for whom this tier list is supposedly aimed at, it's actually completely useless, according to you. But Sumia still would not be better than Cordelia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 (edited) Lol people still using averages. I'm out. What are we supposed to use, then? Should Raven be on the absolutely bottom of FE7's tier list, because "he's the most likely to be RNG screwed?" lol You can't be serious Edited September 14, 2013 by Nobody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRDRHAWK Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 What are we supposed to use, then? Should Raven be on the absolutely bottom of FE7's tier list, because "he's the most likely to be RNG screwed?" lol I'm biased, but Raven for top tier because Heroes were OP in the GBA games Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 (edited) I'm biased, but Raven for top tier because Heroes were OP in the GBA games It was a joke PKL probably had a screwed Sumia, and now assumes Sumia always suck. Edited September 14, 2013 by Nobody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZemZem Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 I was done a while ago when PKL made the absurd claim that even in casual play, Sumia's useless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRDRHAWK Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 It was a joke I stand by my Raven for top tier argument Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKL Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 (edited) The games never use averages (aside from FE9 fixed mode) to determine whether you proc a stat or not. That's the main issue. We're not arguing FE at that point. We're arguing theory emblem. There's probability to take into account on whether a growth procs or not. Averages simply never happen. In all my time playing FE, never has a character been completely average. @ ZM - It's ok. I don't really want to argue with you anyways ;) Edited September 14, 2013 by PKL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZemZem Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 (edited) @ ZM - It's ok. I don't really want to argue with you anyways ;) Likewise. :P Edited September 14, 2013 by ZMeister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwall Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 (edited) What are we supposed to use, then? Joint-multinomial distributions, son. Edited September 14, 2013 by Redwall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 The games never use averages (aside from FE9 fixed mode) to determine whether you proc a stat or not. That's the main issue. We're not arguing FE at that point. We're arguing theory emblem. There's probability to take into account on whether a growth procs or not. Averages simply never happen. In all my time playing FE, never has a character been completely average. @ ZM - It's ok. I don't really want to argue with you anyways ;) Yes, but the same way Sumia can be bellow average, she can also be above average. That's why we talk about averages. I've had Sumias that got STR for 10 levels in a row, but I obviously can't use it to say she's good, since it's too different from her average. The same thing can be said about a screwed sumia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 The games never use averages (aside from FE9 fixed mode) to determine whether you proc a stat or not. That's the main issue. We're not arguing FE at that point. We're arguing theory emblem. There's probability to take into account on whether a growth procs or not. Averages simply never happen. In all my time playing FE, never has a character been completely average. @ ZM - It's ok. I don't really want to argue with you anyways ;) I agree with taking probability into account, and averages are typically the most probable outcome at any given level. Obviously it's extremely rare for exact averages to happen, but it's not worth taking every slight deviation into account, so you use averages and note deviations where they make an impact. I don't see the problem here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted September 14, 2013 Author Share Posted September 14, 2013 Let's ignore Nosferatanking for a sec. Why do the Cordelia fanboys have difficulty understanding that: 1. Sumia has 7 chapters of availability over Cordelia. 2. Sumia has at least A Frederick, probably S Frederick by the time Cordelia shows up. 3. Their difference in performance is not great once Cordelia catches up. This is so painfully simple. I think the Cordelia fans are just so extremely biased that they defend Cordelia no matter what. "Sumia is not good in LTC." Lol. PKL is probably trolling. She's better than Cordelia that's for sure. She has availability. And who is better than Sumia other than Morgan and the Avatar in LTC anyway? No one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 Dumb question about this... issue... with the girls. But... 1) Can Sumia preform without a Fred pair-up? Like, why should we assume every player will partner her with Fred? 2) Can Cordy function without the Nosferatu? Likewise, we can't assume every player will turn her into a Nosferatu tank. It may be powerful, but if that's the only way she's good... 3) Is Sumia useful before Cordy joins? I don't recall her being useful, but my PEMN after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRDRHAWK Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 I don't see how people assume Cordelia becoming a Nosferatank is even viable considering her magic blows With her you're better off getting Sol and chancing it proc'ing rather than a statistically inferior method Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKL Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 Let's ignore Nosferatanking for a sec. Why do the Cordelia fanboys have difficulty understanding that: 1. Sumia has 7 chapters of availability over Cordelia. 2. Sumia has at least A Frederick, probably S Frederick by the time Cordelia shows up. 3. Their difference in performance is not great once Cordelia catches up. This is so painfully simple. I think the Cordelia fans are just so extremely biased that they defend Cordelia no matter what. "Sumia is not good in LTC." Lol. PKL is probably trolling. She's better than Cordelia that's for sure. She has availability. And who is better than Sumia other than Morgan and the Avatar in LTC anyway? No one. First: The only Cordelia fanboy here is me. Second: I legitimately think Cordelia is a better recipient of experience. Third: Sumia really does nothing special. You should probably draft this game or something. Literally everything she does, aside from Ch5 ferrying Fred and Ch8 is replicable by other units. Fourth: LTC of this game you literally only need a Peg Avatar Ricken Libra and Morgan, you know it. So stop acting like Sumia is special. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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