JSND Alter Dragon Boner Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 You need 2 chapter to get Fred x Sumia C in most circumstances Support Cap is 27, its realistic if they get 4 Combat, which is 24 To get B, and A, S you need 2 more for each So, thats 2 x 4 = 8 As for getting Fred x Sumia A in Cordy jointime..... every playlog does that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Bear Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 I said "I mean no offense when I say this." Is that not extremely clear? What would be the best way to use Cordelia? Train her as a peg knight then change to Dark Mage when I get to chapter 13? Most people will say that and then go on to be insulting anyway. I will say that this is the internetso .Iisi terpretation is bound to happen... I would say go DM either ASAP and go Ricken or 13 and go Henry. Neither will givw you speed but Henry's defense > Ricken's skill. Going at 13 would mean you might have to wait a map or 2 for Nosferatu (or arms scroll) and build the support later in exchange for getting D a d possibly Move from pair up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vashiane Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 I said "I mean no offense when I say this." Is that not extremely clear? What would be the best way to use Cordelia? Train her as a peg knight then change to Dark Mage when I get to chapter 13? Unless you want Galeforce as soon as possible, that's the best way to go about it, yes. Most people will say that and then go on to be insulting anyway. I will say that this is the internetso .Iisi terpretation is bound to happen... I would say go DM either ASAP and go Ricken or 13 and go Henry. Neither will givw you speed but Henry's defense > Ricken's skill. Going at 13 would mean you might have to wait a map or 2 for Nosferatu (or arms scroll) and build the support later in exchange for getting D a d possibly Move from pair up. The only complaint I'd have about using Henry instead of Ricken, despite the obvious loss of 6 maingame chapters to build supports on, is the sorcerer overlap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Bear Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 The only complaint I'd have about using Henry instead of Ricken, despite the obvious loss of 6 maingame chapters to build supports on, is the sorcerer overlap. Oh yeah... forgot about that. I guess Ricken is the way to go then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted September 15, 2013 Author Share Posted September 15, 2013 You need 2 chapter to get Fred x Sumia C in most circumstances Support Cap is 27, its realistic if they get 4 Combat, which is 24 To get B, and A, S you need 2 more for each So, thats 2 x 4 = 8 As for getting Fred x Sumia A in Cordy jointime..... every playlog does that Wrong calculations man. C = 36 B = 36 A = 45 S = 45 27 x 2 = 54 = C 54 + 27 = 81 = B after 3 chapters. You need 117 for A. 81 + 27 = 108 108 + 27 = 135 = A after 5 chapters. 117 + 45 = 162 for S. 135 + 27 = 162 = S after 6 chapters. Your mistake was that B and S required 2 chapters. They don't. What was that about doing my research? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSND Alter Dragon Boner Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 (edited) Support Ranks does not work like that, otherwise my Sumia vs the World playthrough would be even easier C = 27 + 9 = 2 chapter B = 27 + 9 = 2 chapter A = 27 + 18 = 2 chapter S = 27 + 18 = 2 chapter 8 Edited September 15, 2013 by JSND Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 I love how Celes is just completely ignoring all points harmful to his case, not answering questions about how this tier list actually works, and continuing to try arguments that have already been proven impossible. So this is why people hate tier lists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted September 15, 2013 Author Share Posted September 15, 2013 What points are harmful to my case? I'm gonna try out Sumia supporting Frederick now. Not like it matters much though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 Let's see: everything. But for real, here are the main two: 1. The fact that Cordelia will inevitably and quickly pass Sumia up in ability. 2. The fact that Cordelia is much more versatile in class choice and supports. (Sumia basically needs one specific partner while Cordelia can use him and multiple others) And that covers a lot of ground. However, you only seem to care about how Cordelia performs as a Dark Mage. Your insistence on ignoring questions about the purposes of this tier list isn't helping anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camilla Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 I just did a Frederick and Sumia pair-up run from chapters 3-7 including the two paralogues. By the end of chapter 7 they have an A.5 and will be S by the end of the paralogue right after 7. Sumia is also ready to be promoted by 7 and her stats are pretty good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 (edited) 1. The fact that Cordelia will inevitably and quickly pass Sumia up in ability. Let's just make it clear that this one is not a fact. Many people here disagree with that one (including me) Edited September 15, 2013 by Nobody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 Let's just say that this one is not a fact. Many people here disagree with that one (including me)One only needs to compare their bases and growths to see it. Given what this tier list is supposedly aiming for, that's what's gonna happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 Honestly, it seems that, for now, Cordelia > Sumia. We can always revisit it later once the list is a bit more solid and argue the point better, but this seems to be just aggrivating people now. Best to not rip the list apart so early. Can we just agree this is a Mia/Zihark type situation where both have positives and negatives and it's difficult to decide which is actually better without far too much detailed review? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 (edited) One only needs to compare their bases and growths to see it. Given what this tier list is supposedly aiming for, that's what's gonna happen. There are 7 chapters between Sumia joining and Cordelia joining. Even without favoritism, that's a lot of time. Yes, Cordelia surpass Sumia after some time. But how long does that take? A lot of time, IMO Honestly, it seems that, for now, Cordelia > Sumia. We can always revisit it later once the list is a bit more solid and argue the point better, but this seems to be just aggrivating people now. Best to not rip the list apart so early. Can we just agree this is a Mia/Zihark type situation where both have positives and negatives and it's difficult to decide which is actually better without far too much detailed review? No, because Mia is clearly better than Zihark Edited September 15, 2013 by Nobody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted September 15, 2013 Author Share Posted September 15, 2013 I've already told you I can't give lengthy replies because I'm on my phone. The clarification on the tier list will come later. 1. Yeah, but when? When does Cordelia pass Sumia in ability? Late game? There's not much time for the difference to even matter. 2. This isn't an issue since this tier list assumes perfect play. Let's admit that Cordelia has a late game advantage. But 7 chapters of availability is worth more than 4 points of strength. The tier list assuming optimal resource distribution isn't even my idea. I first heard Mekkah arguing that giving Arthur all your resources is the best thing to do so he shouldn't get penalized for it. I liked the idea so I use them in my tier lists. We kinda have to assume perfect play. We give Miriel a Second Seal and Nosferatu because it's the smartest thing to do. Denying her those resources would be a stupid waste of potential. I want this tier list to be for newbies, so for each unit I intend to explain why that unit is positioned there. Obviously newbies will be very surprised to see Miriel as the third best unit in the game and it needs to be explained. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSND Alter Dragon Boner Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 I love how in a min max topic Cordelia and everyone else will instantly lose to Sumia but n Tier List topic.... things get good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 2. This isn't an issue since this tier list assumes perfect play.Then I'll take my leave. Clearly this tier list is not what it claims to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vashiane Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 Wait. I don't mean to make this any worse, but exactly what do you mean that this tier list assumes "perfect" play? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 I thought 'Perfect play' meant things like 'the player doesn't accidentally leave Donnel in range with 1 HP while training him' or things like that. Not 'the player always makes the right/optimal choice'. We can't assume the player will always make the perfect choice for a situation. Sometimes it may be obvious, like pairing people up, but other times it won't be. If a character requires things to go a specific way, it needs to be noted and considered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted September 15, 2013 Author Share Posted September 15, 2013 Perfect play means that units get the best resources possible. Miriel gets Nosferatus and the Second Seal. Tharja gets Nosferatus. Henry gets Nosferatus. Cordelia gets Stahl. Sumia gets Frederick. Avatar gets a Second Seal to change into a Dark Mage. And so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vashiane Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 Perfect play means that units get the best resources possible. Miriel gets Nosferatus and the Second Seal. Tharja gets Nosferatus. Henry gets Nosferatus. Cordelia gets Stahl. Sumia gets Frederick. Avatar gets a Second Seal to change into a Dark Mage. And so on. Ah... I see. Hmm. So if we assume perfect play then, where should Ricken go/which child should he father, if at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted September 15, 2013 Author Share Posted September 15, 2013 (edited) If we didn't assume perfect play or optimal resource distribution, I'd have to make a tier list like this for every single case: Top Tier Sorcerer Nosferatu Miriel Mid Tier Sorcerer Miriel Sage Rescue Miriel Low Tier Sage Miriel For every character. I think we both agree that would be horrible. I'm not sure who Ricken would go with. What do you think? Edited September 15, 2013 by Celes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vashiane Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 (edited) If we didn't assume perfect play or optimal resource distribution, I'd have to make a tier list like this for every single case: Top Tier Sorcerer Nosferatu Miriel Mid Tier Sorcerer Miriel Sage Rescue Miriel Low Tier Sage Miriel For every character. I think we both agree that would be horrible. I'm not sure who Ricken would go with. What do you think? Well, from what I've learned from the Pairing Thread, Ricken is usually placed like this: Owain > Inigo > Laurent, so Lissa may be considered the "perfect play" option. As for tier... hmm. Middle of the middle tier, thanks to Cavalier? Edited September 15, 2013 by Vashiane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted September 15, 2013 Author Share Posted September 15, 2013 I can see Ricken being where you said, but likely for different reasons. There's no post game content in this tier list so children don't matter too much. I'd probably use Dark Knight Ricken with Miriel or Tharja or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euklyd Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 If we didn't assume perfect play or optimal resource distribution, I'd have to make a tier list like this for every single case: Top Tier Sorcerer Nosferatu Miriel Mid Tier Sorcerer Miriel Sage Rescue Miriel Low Tier Sage Miriel For every character. I think we both agree that would be horrible. I'm not sure who Ricken would go with. What do you think? Some of the tier lists I've seen rank Galeforce Sumia and non-Galeforce Sumia separately, so why is it wrong to rank Nosferatu separately? Well, from what I've learned from the Pairing Thread, Ricken is usually placed like this: Owain > Inigo > Laurent, so Lissa may be considered the "perfect play" option. As for tier... hmm. Middle of the middle tier, thanks to Cavalier? The Pairing Thread is all about grinding the hell out of units, so I would be cautious about bringing its lessons into a tier list. And kids are very hard to rank, since Ricken!Inigo is very different from Frederick!Inigo or something, not to mention probably won't be getting used. Actually, are any of the kids getting used? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.