My Fire Emblem Dilema. Need Opinions.

[EldinnerPlate]

I've been hacking fire emblem for about 4 months now and after messing around with roms and ideas I've had, I believe I'm ready to start a hack. I've narrowed my hack down to two ideas I have and I can't decide which one to run with. I would equally enjoy doing either of them but I know I wouldn't have the time/patience to do two hacks at once. So I need you guys to help me decide between my two ideas.

1.

First is an idea that I made completely from scratch. It follows around a venturer who was recruited for his countries military and his struggles. The whole continent is in a seemingly never-ending war. In the main character's country, every person must serve 2 years when they are 18. The story starts as recruitment day rolls around and follows the main character as he becomes a professional soldier, makes new friends, and loses old ones. His country has never done anything for him, and he doesn't feel much loyalty to it. What impact will he play in the continent-wide war? And I can't really really say much more without giving things away.

Advantages:

• I have a lot more freedom to do whatever I want with the story.
• Get to make completely new characters with their own personalities.
• Already have a lot of the plot planned out.

Disadvantages:

• Not sure if I would be able to describe the continent and the other nations well enough.

2.

Second idea is one that I thought I would make right away if I ever learned fe hacking. The story would follow Joshua from FE8 after he leaves Jehanna and becomes a mercenary. I would be basing the chapters on things the way I believe they happened and I would put some things I found in the dialogue of FE8 that may have happened in the time frame of Joshua leaving. I would try to stay as accurate to what is said in the actual game of FE8 as possible, but I would be adding a lot of new characters.

Advantages:

• I am a big fan of FE8 and it would be very fun making interesting things that I found in support conversations actually happen and have it be playable.
• Joshua is my favorite character so writing him would just be very fun.
• Most people will already know the continent and the locations so I wouldn't have to spend as much time describing them.

Disadvantages:

• Other fans of the game may not like my interpretation of things.
• I have tried hacking fe8 and it is just an extreme pain compared to fe7 so I would be hacking fe7. So some of the features of fe8 would be missing like double promotions, some classes, and some other things that fe8 has that fe7 doesn't.
• I will be changing the portraits but I still don't know how to make a character look younger.

Any wisdom or advice is also appreciated.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Eldinnnn

[Randa]

I voted for Joshua's story. I feel like it would be easier to right a focused story rather than making a whole world from scratch. Another positive thing about it is that the story gives you several characters to already work with. (Joshua, Callech, maybe gerik, etc.) But the down side is that you won't have as many liberties with the story. It most likely wont be very long, because you can't add a huge war without breaking the story line already made, and you can't go down the demon/god route.

[AstraLunaSol]

as soon as i saw the second idea i was like

no

because if you have the capacity and drive to do a full custom hack not relying on other pre-existing material from fe games, it has the potential to be grand

your disadvantage of the first idea, not being able to describe the nations/continent is fine. you'll understand your setting more after working with it. Usually, creating the world where your game takes place will be the most fun. That's how I've found it, at least.

Being able to do as you wish is a large consuming task (trust me, I would know) but when you look back at it, it'll instill a feeling of pride for creating the world.

i also like the route you're going with for the main character, the losing friends bit will be difficult to do if they're playable characters, but if they are npcs it can work out. It leaves all the characters you have to experience character development over the course of time, as everyone is fresh.

Edited September 15, 2013 by AstraLunaSol

[EldinnerPlate]

Randa:

Exactly. I was planning on making Joshua, Caellach, and Aias for sure. And for the story not being so long, I have quite a few ideas of things I would like to do. It would basically go joshua leaving->meets caellach->go to back to jehanna to merc guild->and then they go on missions but I will try to put a lot of cool things from fe8 in there like Garcia, how gerik got his scar, saleh, ect. They will not be the main things of course but they will be in the chapters. I think the main focus would be Joshua maturing and learning about his people and how Caellach turns corrupt.

Astra:

Well I will take your word for it because I loved DoF. But how long did it take until you knew the direction you wanted to take DoF? Did you know right off the bat how you wanted the story to play out and at what speed or did you just take it chapter by chapter? I ask that because the one big fear I have is that I will get really far and then just hit a roadblock and not know where to go from there. As for the killed off character(s) I'm planning on making them NPC.

[AstraLunaSol]

Astra:

Well I will take your word for it because I loved DoF. But how long did it take until you knew the direction you wanted to take DoF? Did you know right off the bat how you wanted the story to play out and at what speed or did you just take it chapter by chapter? I ask that because the one big fear I have is that I will get really far and then just hit a roadblock and not know where to go from there. As for the killed off character(s) I'm planning on making them NPC.

I had a central idea, then branched off from there. The way I want the story told though is in a way where the player eventually realizes everything comes together by the end, so I fragment my plot points. I started hacking January 2011, made a couple chapters then proceeded to make more, without a clear idea as to how I would get to that central idea by the end. After working on it for a year and a half, I had finished both routes and then started to seriously think where I could improve my story to head towards my central idea. Even now I'm still improving past chapters to drop more hints and such. So no, I did not have a clear story at the very beginning. I had somewhat of an idea where I wanted to go, but no real path to get me to the destination, so the story could be molded over time. And it still continues to do so now as I find plot holes. However, by now, after almost working on it for 3 years, I definitely have the lore down pat.

You should have a final destination of where you want to go, then you won't have a roadblock since you won't have a solid path. Others may think that you should have a solid story before making a ROM hack, but I find that things can change over time and as a result that solid story begins to crack and you'll have to start over. Of course, it all depends on the person. As long as you have that final destination, you can make everything in between work for you. Perhaps suddenly killing x npc eventually means something in the future, but the player won't realize it until near the end of the game, things like that. You should find you want the player to see by the very end of the game, such as the morality of the character's actions and how they are effected by them in the very end (may work out for your story). Once you have that, everything can flow as you want.

Good, then people won't get pissed off at having their 20/10 leveled character killed because PLOT.

[EldinnerPlate]

I had a central idea, then branched off from there. The way I want the story told though is in a way where the player eventually realizes everything comes together by the end, so I fragment my plot points. I started hacking January 2011, made a couple chapters then proceeded to make more, without a clear idea as to how I would get to that central idea by the end. After working on it for a year and a half, I had finished both routes and then started to seriously think where I could improve my story to head towards my central idea. Even now I'm still improving past chapters to drop more hints and such. So no, I did not have a clear story at the very beginning. I had somewhat of an idea where I wanted to go, but no real path to get me to the destination, so the story could be molded over time. And it still continues to do so now as I find plot holes. However, by now, after almost working on it for 3 years, I definitely have the lore down pat.

You should have a final destination of where you want to go, then you won't have a roadblock since you won't have a solid path. Others may think that you should have a solid story before making a ROM hack, but I find that things can change over time and as a result that solid story begins to crack and you'll have to start over. Of course, it all depends on the person. As long as you have that final destination, you can make everything in between work for you. Perhaps suddenly killing x npc eventually means something in the future, but the player won't realize it until near the end of the game, things like that. You should find you want the player to see by the very end of the game, such as the morality of the character's actions and how they are effected by them in the very end (may work out for your story). Once you have that, everything can flow as you want.

Good, then people won't get pissed off at having their 20/10 leveled character killed because PLOT.

I think I grasped what you're saying. I really like the idea of having something in the beginning have an impact on the future without it being immediately obvious to the player. If I did do this though, I could see myself leaving a plot holes from time to time, but like you did, I could probably fix those when I find them. The more I think about this the better it is that I have the freedom to make whatever I want happen. Though I think I would still have most of those liberties if I were to do Joshua's story, they would have to be on a much smaller scale. Since if I made something big happen, like previously mentioned, it would probably break the fe8 storyline. Thanks for the advice Astra.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Eldinnnn

[EldinnerPlate]

Sorry double post, why do I always do this -_-

Edited September 15, 2013 by Eldinnnn

[CT075]

i would support an original story

just let me say that if you think you're ready and can pull it off, don't talk about it

do it

[Primefusion]

As someone who has worked with a preexisting world and is now moving towards one made from scratch I think I can sympathize with you. I originally wasn't sure if I could pull off the "completely original world" thing. But as time went on I found the constraints of working in a canon-filled setting to be crushing (especially geography). I would have an idea only for the world to cock-block me.

Let me tell you: Making a world from scratch is actually pretty rewarding. It takes time and consideration but the payoff is immense. Running into a roadblock is also less troublesome since you can tweak the world on the fly to suit your needs.

[Agro]

You should have a final destination of where you want to go, then you won't have a roadblock since you won't have a solid path. Others may think that you should have a solid story before making a ROM hack, but I find that things can change over time and as a result that solid story begins to crack and you'll have to start over. Of course, it all depends on the person. As long as you have that final destination, you can make everything in between work for you. Perhaps suddenly killing x npc eventually means something in the future, but the player won't realize it until near the end of the game, things like that. You should find you want the player to see by the very end of the game, such as the morality of the character's actions and how they are effected by them in the very end (may work out for your story). Once you have that, everything can flow as you want.

This is pretty much my approach to writing stories. You don't want to do lock yourself into anything by setting your entire story in stone. Plan out key events and write the story around that, modifying characters and settings as you need to to accomplish those story goals. Like ALS, I've been writing Eternal Bond for quite a while and even now I still come up with new ways to enrich the story. It's part of the writing process--I don't think anyone who ever wrote anything good planned every single detail from the very beginning.

I disagree with the "losing friends" thing, though. I think as long as you can plan things out so that the player doesn't become heavily reliant on losing said character (by perhaps giving the player a substitute character who is just as good if not better) you can pull it off. What I mean is, if you're going to have character leave the party, then make sure it doesn't happen too late, but also make sure that the player has become adequately attached to them to care. Making them playable certainly helps.

If it wasn't already obvious, I would recommend going with an original project, but only if you have the time for it. It allows so much freedom you'll wonder why you ever considered trying to work with a pre-existing setting. As Primefusion said, in an original setting, everything can be readjusted to suit your needs. Of course, if you study 40 hours a week and work weekends, making a fully original hack is not really feasible. So have a good think about it, and figure out what you can actually do before you embark on your journey to creating a ROM hack.

[The Objection!]

If you're going with a story about Joshua, I think it's better if you create one where Joshua is already the king of Jehanna. But that's just my opinion.

[Wayward Winds]

Okay, so I'm just parroting stuff that Astra started off and others continued, but he's got probably the best approach. I've been working on a variety of fanfics and an actual novel/series that I aim to get published eventually, and one thing I've noticed with all of these projects is that like it or not, the final product is never particularly similar to the original idea. At the least, they get a great deal more complex. I guess I'll give a little detail, just to give an idea how things evolve.

You'll start off with a base idea. Nothing too fancy, just a general outline. Probably the method of kicking off the plot (assassination attempt, invasion etc.), maybe a few ideas about where you want the plot to go. Initially, you'll likely be thinking that this works, and indeed it likely will. But at this point plenty of things are still in the air. Then, as you actually start writing it, you'll automatically start putting little tidbits of information into conversation to give the whole thing extra characterisation. Say, someone will refer to a quiet little port town on the middle of nowhere, that just so happens to be the place to go if you want to buy from the black market. You may well find that visiting said town becomes quite useful to the story later on, and now you've already got the place partly planned out before it's even needed. Or maybe you'll pass through a village where people just... disappear. Now, just mentioning that is probably not enough on its own, so, you'd think up something that sounds plausible given the context. Given your idea... perhaps the villagers are convinced that, given these are the people who refuse to do their mandatory time in the army, that said army has gotten into the habit of forcibly enlisting them. Okay, that'll work, you've added depth to the immediate setting (the village), and it also hints at the overall politics of the area. But, though that may seem enough, you'll soon start puzzling out... what really happens? Pretty soon, even if you didn't intend to, you'll start thinking up new threads that deal with this. Maybe the villagers were in fact right, and somewhere down the line you can use this as foreshadowing for a much later event... or not. Regardless, even if you have no intention of putting half of this background fluff into the story, you find your world rapidly expanding, and it becomes much easier to have such details in mind when writing your script. And thus, your story expands in depth.

My novel was originally intended as a standalone, with threads that would allow me to easily expand it to more typical trilogy length. Even so, the first (sci-fi) book had to have a fairly detailed background built up before I could start writing in earnest - I spent about six months getting the bare bones straight in my head, although it's up to you how long you take. Just don't jump in with no thought whatsoever. I started with five plot important planets, thought up another ten or so that could be used to flesh out the background... only, this quickly expanded to close to forty. It's still increasing now. I have no intention of using most of them as anything more than one off mentions, but even so, they're there if I need them. And a couple have shown such promise as to have been granted bigger roles. Never assume that you have everything you need, and always keep considering whether these new creations can somehow enhance your work.

For example, one such of my planets spawned the 'Beacon Bird'. This all black Toucan style bird is likely the laziest predator you'll meet, because its, uh, hunting method is to let its prey come to it. Namely, it eats moths, which as we all know, are usually attracted to light. The bird has a small patch of luminescent bacteria at the back of its beak; all it has to do is open its beak, and the moths fly straight in. Whatever they happen to be looking for in the light, they probably don't find it. Hence the quite common in-universe saying 'Beware the Beacon Bird'.

...So even little things such as unusual sayings can add depth. And on occasion, you may find a supposedly 'background setting' spawns something (say, a faction) that later proves to be very useful to your story. Don't worry about a sparse background, detail will come naturally over time anyway.

You may incidentally, find it useful to draw yourself a map - what countries there are, where the borders and capital cities are. Pretty soon, you'll be filling in the blank spaces between these landmarks, which in turn may give you ideas on plot. And then when it comes to plotting your journey across the map, you'll have more information on which to base your decision. Even if you can't (or don't want to) insert the map into the hack, it's a lot easier to describe the world when you've got something physical to look at.

This sort of thing will also work for plot. Agro's right when he says you don't want to fix everything in stone just yet. Have a set of plot critical 'waypoints' that you intend to visit, but leave most of the space between relatively empty. You know you want to get from point X to point Y, you likely have an idea of the terrain and perhaps who (or what) lives there. Start with the journey from waypoint 1 to waypoint 2, all the while considering your world and how it may affect the plot. You pass relatively near to a volcano... which happens to be spewing out ash. Hey, justification for fog of war, providing you're distant enough that the volcano can't do anything else to you. A few bandits are taking advantage of this weather - that's your immediate threat. You pass on, and players will let the affair fade in light off whatever else you've started chucking at them. But perhaps, that volcano still has its uses. Apart from the fact it's an somewhat unusual reason for fog of war (given that most FE's tend to use night-time or some sight restricting spell), why was it spewing ash? Is someone... tampering with it? Maybe, and maybe you find this creates further plot ideas. The German Luftwaffe tried in WW2 to set off Vesuvius by dropping bombs on it; who's to say someone isn't trying something similar here with lost magic? Maybe the ash was just a precursor to a full scale eruption. Hey presto, as well as expanding your world in the early stages, you've also given yourself more ideas for later in the game. It doesn't have to properly affect your plot critical waypoints either, said eruption could happen in the background and be the catalyst for why one side suddenly has far less soldiers, or why they suddenly launch an all out offensive with everything they've got (retaliation). The possibilities are endless.

Of course, not everything has to have a serious affect. You don't want to drown the player in details, because they'll lose interest in getting to the game itself. Remember that this isn't a book, the player expects to have some role other than tapping the 'A' button for three hours straight. But hold on to such ideas regardless, because you may well find they slot quite well into a later story.

I mentioned how my book idea had several ideas for expanding it into a trilogy. However, one of the supposed 'background worlds' later evolved into a completely different setting with its own plot. Hence I then had two trilogy ideas. But then, it turned out that they actually worked better linked, with a more unusual plot binding the two original ideas together. Hence things then shifted again, to a single five book set that made use of all of the assets (for example, book 1 follows events in a given timeframe in the original setting, book 2 for the same timeframe in the other setting, seeing how events bleed over. And then book 3 and onwards would gradually pull these different settings together). And every time, just like Astra said above, I find myself having to check through everything I've written so far, rewriting things here and there to make them fit better. And the piece gradually improves as time goes on.

I think I've rambled on enough here. The point is, the story will evolve quite drastically, no matter what you do to stop it. Don't even try. Even the best writers (and I do not count myself as one of them) know that they will likely see a story go through several different incarnations before it finally makes it to print (or a released hack in your case). They go into it expecting to have to completely screw up everything they've written for a hundred pages or so, chuck it in the bin, and start over. A fair few hacks on here have done that as well. Don't worry if that happens to you, it'll get better every time. And each time you'll have more of a universe to build your story on (unless you take the Kitty of Time route; I don't think League of Champions has kept a scrap of the last version this time round).

So anyway, good luck. While everything I've said may be a little daunting (as well as a frightening look at how my mind can work), it is genuinely more rewarding to build your own world than to piggyback onto another. Harder, but more rewarding. For that reason alone, I'm voting for your first idea.

...Incidentally, feel free to adapt anything I've suggested here if you like any of the ideas... although I'd rather the 'Beacon Bird' wasn't just lifted straight out in one piece. I do still intend to use that one myself after all!

Edited September 15, 2013 by Wayward Winds

[EldinnerPlate]

Wow, I was not expecting this big or good of a response so thank you all for your input. Primefusion I see what you are saying about the restrictions that an already made world will have. You have all pretty much dispelled any fear I was having about a road block half way through the story. I already have about the first 6 chapters loosely planned out in my head, and a very loosely planned ending. I like what you are all saying about making some key points to work towards since, like you all said, I can build virtually anything around those points. And Agro the way I'm planning the death, it will have very little in-game impact on the player, but like you said I am hoping to make an emotional connection between the player and character before they are "killed off". I think I will be able to put at least 30 minutes-1 hour a day into making this hack on weekdays what with school, soccer and whatnot. WW Shhhhh you're giving away my entire plot! But I do have something that resembles what you said already planned out. To strip it down to the basics, the villages that don't pay the required taxes get a little incentive to do so. My plan is to expand the story starting with army, then nation, then the entire continent, and the player will hopefully have their eyes opened to just how big the world is and how different each country's ideals are, and maybe get more information on why this war is happening. I like the beacon bird idea you had, something little that adds depth, and I will try to incorporate as many as my mind can create and that make sense. I'm planning on putting a good amount of the characterisation in talk events so that if the player wants to get more into the story and form closer bonds with the characters, they have that choice, and if they don't, no harm done. I think I'll be using a lot of what you said(in my own way of course).

It's great to see how passionate you all are over the original stories you have all made and that is just getting me more excited to really sink my teeth into this project. Thank you all for the advice!

[Luminar]

something new and original, kitty has a fe6 hack with changes and arch made some changes for elibian nights. try to do what blazer did for the last promise to make it feel like its more than a hack but a new game.

[Chocolate Kitty]

I think I've rambled on enough here. The point is, the story will evolve quite drastically, no matter what you do to stop it. Don't even try. Even the best writers (and I do not count myself as one of them) know that they will likely see a story go through several different incarnations before it finally makes it to print (or a released hack in your case). They go into it expecting to have to completely screw up everything they've written for a hundred pages or so, chuck it in the bin, and start over. A fair few hacks on here have done that as well. Don't worry if that happens to you, it'll get better every time. And each time you'll have more of a universe to build your story on (unless you take the Kitty of Time route; I don't think League of Champions has kept a scrap of the last version this time round).

Kalath is still there...!

[EldinnerPlate]

Late update:

After taking everyone's opinions and advice I decided that I'm going to do the full custom. Already got started a bit and am coming up with new ideas. Thanks to everyone who voted and those we shared their personal experience and advice!

Edited September 25, 2013 by Eldinnnn

[ThisProfileNoLongerUsed]

Good luck, man. It's a hard thing, but if you stick to it, you'll get it done.

[Pixelman]

Late update:

After taking everyone's opinions and advice I decided that I'm going to do the full custom. Already got started a bit and am coming up with new ideas. Thanks to everyone who voted and those we shared their personal experience and advice!

Don't go too over the top when making a hack. You don't want to be over ambitious and make a 32 long chapter hack. Start with a 10 chapter hack, and then if you're confident, go for a 24-32 chapter hack. The thing about making a full custom hack is that if it takes on too much, it could be absolutely destroyed.

Welp.

Best of luck to you, and I hope you do well!

[AstraLunaSol]

As said above, don't be too ambitious if you don't think you have the time.

DoF is going to be 40+ chapters and I've been working on it for almost 3 years.

I only have 26 chapters made and I have a team.

So yeah, a 20 chapter hack is still a hell of a lot of work for a single person still.

[EldinnerPlate]

I have a good idea how I want the first five chapters playing out so I'll see how long that takes me and plan accordingly.

[CT075]

i have honestly given up multiple times after making like two chapters (after setting out to make a 10 or so)

don't underestimate how much this will test your commitment

[dondon151]

hey man, i set out for 6 chapters and i more or less gave up

(but i cannot justify hacking fire emblem when there's so much else that i should be doing)

[Primefusion]

4 years ago I shot for 10 chapters.

Now I have 13 but the final product will end up being at 19 or 20.

Damn it.

[EldinnerPlate]

Haha I've seen quite a few projects fail in my half a year at SF. Hopefully I won't be one of them. I'm gonna be going for at least 30 minutes a day spent making the game, and more when I can. Thanks everyone for the kind words and scaring the shit out of me.

Edited September 27, 2013 by Eldinnnn